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Slight Dialga and Palkia Revision

@cal: I think so, yes.

@Genji: If you can convert matter to nothingness you can use a subpower of void manipulation and can because of that have listed void manipulation. In this case it is likely more specifically the application of erasing matter by erasing spacetime. Erasing matter is a subset of erasing spacetime is a subset of void manipulation. The problem is if you list "can resist void manipulation" you claim that the character can resist more than the subset of void manipulation, which is erasing spacetime. You claim with that that the character can also resist every part of void manipulation that is not part of the subset that is erasing spacetime. But for that you don't have proof. Hence we have to be specific and list resistance to that specific subset and not to the set in total.
 
Sure. On that note you might want to list time / space erasure as part of their notable attacks and techniques (at the space/time warp section I suppose) if they have done so. (Since we have discussions about improving article details lately....)
 
The thing is, Void manipulation isn't new to the poke-verse.

•Arceus was born from absolute nothing.

•Arceus erased some boulders from existence.

•Darkrai was erased from existence and needed Dialga to resurrect it.

Even if Dialga and Palkia only erased their concepts, that's still Void Manipulation / Destruction.
 
@Genji: They didn't erase their concept, they erased time and space.

Erasing a boulder from existence is erasing matter, a subset of void manipulation, which arceus has on his profile with the fitting specification.

Being born from nothing, isn't an ability in the first place.

Darkrai couldn't even revive himself from being killed normally.
 
Aren't the Creation Trio conceptual beings? If they erased Space-Time like you stated, it would still be Destruction.

Erasing anything is Void Manipulation or Destruction according to their profiles. Anything else is a subset.

According to Void Manipulation profile, living in nothingness is applicable.

The Creation Trio had to resurrect the entire city.

Tbh, I'm not trying to be disrespectful. But it seems like your trying to tell me that manipulating=destroying. Which sounds somewhat ridiculous imo.
 
What I am trying to tell you is that we are specific.

If they show subset of an ability, state on their profile that they have that subset, not the whole ability. What you can do is link the ability when stating that they have the subset.

If they resist a subset of an ability, state on their profile that they resist that subset, not the whole ability.


If they live in nothingness state that they live in nothingness.

If they erase spacetime, list that they can erase spacetime.

If they resist erasing spacetime, list that they can resist erasing spacetime.

If they resist erasing matter, state that they can resist erasing matter.

If they can ressurect a city, list that they can ressurrect stuff.


It is really that simple. State what they can do, not some ability that includes what they can do (though you can link to that ability for more general description).

And the creation trio are not conceptual beings (aka non-physical beings that can exist also exist without body or similar just as concept, which can generally regenerate themselfs as long as their concepts exist), though they maybe are beings linked to concepts (aka if they die someway their concept is destroyed).
 
Being the embodiment of space doesn't actually mean anything. It just means that you are a symbol for it essentially.

They are linked to space/time/antimatter, but that is not being a conceptual being in our sense of using the term.

Conceptual beings usually don't require a physical body and can regenerate as long as their concepts exist.

Essentially: Dialga is physically killed => time is destroyed as well. (not sure if also the concept of time)

Conceptual being of time is killed and concept of time time exists => Conceptual being of time regenerates

The Creation Trio lacks the showings for this kind of classification.

At least that is in my opinion the case for the more feat/profile orientated definition of the matter. In a more lapidar sense one can say that they are I suppose.


I probably should sometime finish that blog about conceptual stuff I began writing some time ago, to have a complete theory for such classifications...
 
So, have the changes been applied, and the topic settled?
 
On this, why are Dialga/palkia/giratina low-2c?

wouldn't they only rank as high 3-A since they only embody infinite space and infinite time respectively?
 
AguilaR101 said:
On this, why are Dialga/palkia/giratina low-2c?

wouldn't they only rank as high 3-A since they only embody infinite space and infinite time respectively?
Click to expand...
Among other things, game Giratina almost destroyed two universes in altered form on accident.
 
AguilaR101 said:
On this, why are Dialga/palkia/giratina low-2c?
wouldn't they only rank as high 3-A since they only embody infinite space and infinite time respectively?
Click to expand...
No, because even on their own, they can create universes consisting of only their respective concepts, and destroy regular universes as side effects of their fights.
 
Seems weid they can create space without time and time without space, however destroying universes is 2c feat so that clears it up, thank you.
 
GenjiTheGreat said:
This can't be Space-Time manipulation. Their mere presence destroys reality. That is obviously Destruction/Void Manipulation.
Click to expand...
Right… cause distorting time to destroy all things isn't space-time manipulation? You can destroy things with space-time manipulation, just like with almost any other hax or ability. The second gif you showed even contradicts what you're arguing. And the anime scene is using a visual effect that is shown when they destroy the surrounding space-time, so it's still space-time destruction.
 
DontTalk said:
Resisting existence erasure in total means resisting any form of getting erased. Matter, energy, mind, soul, concept, the spacetime you exist in and the effect of every ability imagineable that might erase you. That can not even be demonstrateable in its entirety.

So as said, the fact that they can tank each others spacetime erasing attacks would be resistance to spacetime erasure, not more.
Click to expand...
Well, as far as the Pokeverse goes, why can't we assume this for the Creation Trio?

They were the ones who created literally everything in the verse, the types, the abilities, the universes, completely everything. Why should they not have at least resistance to the things that they subsiquently and quite exactly bring into existence? In addition, the creation trio have never been shown to be even "weakend'' by these concepts such as Pokemon types in canon. Only within game mechanics which we don't include. The only time they have ever even been harmed, beaten down and outright challeneged was when they fought Arceus.

If we go by fiction in general, it would be obvious that this is incorrect as it would be a massive NLF. But to sum it all up, saying the Creation trio can be effected by the things and concepts they created and brought into the verse itself for Arceus, especially if those concepts are to be used by infinitely weaker pokemon who could never accurately oppose or be a threat to them, is kind of ridiculous.
 
@Anime4Life

I thought Arceus created the concepts and the creation trio (and lake trio a little) created the rest of existence based around those concepts, am I misremembering?

Of course the things and powers they created that are infinitely weaker than them, aren't gonna effect them, but we can't say if that's the case for those powers being used by beings more comparable to them, and listing immunity to those things as an ability would be very misleading.

On the other hand if they can use the abilities and things they created, they should have resistance or immunity since they fight each other so much, but that's only if we know they can actually use those abilities.
 
Yea thats why I said Resistance, not Immunity. And im not sure because I remember being told that after Arceus created the trio, it was they that created everything else in the verse under Arceus's direct supervision. IF im right, then that means they created the concepts of the pokemon's moves, abiliities, etc. Which would mean they should still have resistance to what they create. Creating in this form of way is not something like building a robot, they should perfectly be able to perform whatever they bring forth into existence. I take back my comment about types as it would have been Arceus who made the concept of times (him being born with the plates) but my point in general should still stand.
 
The issue I see is whether they can replicate those moves or abilities on a 4D scale though, since the beings they created who use them are all 3D.
 
It really shouldnt be that confusing. They themselves are 4-D overall so their techniques should be too. For example, in their fight, Dialga and Palkia by just using simple moves like Aura Sphere and Hyper Beam can create shockwaves throughout different dimensions/Universes (and in the manga, entire timelines) and even effect the reverse world all at once. A normal Hyper beam, Aura Sphere and any other move that's similar, well at least used by normal pokemon, wouldnt be able to cause effects anywhere remotely close to that.
 
@Genji I know they create things on a 4D scale, I never said they didn't. I'm saying that any ability, move, and hax they don't naturally learn or show in the three forms of canon can't be assumed to be used on a 4D scale. Just because they've created 3D beings with immunity to stat reduction, or with attacks that hit twice, doesn't mean they can replicate those abilities on a 4D scale, as they've only demonstrated creating those abilities on a 3D scale
 
Every move they learn should scale to their AP. Not to mention, Diagla is immune to Poison attacks while Arceus immune to elemental attacks with the plates. So they actually do have Immunities/Resistances, so their resistance to Void Manipulation sounds plausible.
 
@Genji I said that the moves and abilities they don't learn, but created for 3D beings to use, can't be assumed to be 4D.

Why would them, or even worse other random characters, having immunities and resistances give them resistance to void manipulation?
 
@Blahblah: The Creation Trio are 4-D entities, everything they created should be 4-D. According to bulbapedia , moves are a skill that Pokemon use primary in battle. Therefore, moves are just a Pokemon's natural instinct while in battle. Not to mention, the Creation Trio would have created the concept of Pokemon moves, not each move individually.

DontTalk's argument is that the Creation Trio shouldn't get "resistance to existence erasure/void manipulation" because it's to strong. But given they're characters with strong resistances(my examples) already, it shouldn't be a problem when the Creation Trio shown feats.
 
No. The Pokémon and abilities within the universes they created are not 4D. That's a rediculous assumption.

DontTalk never said it was too strong. He said it was too general, they only showed resistance to destruction of an objects 3D or 4D structure, which is very far from general destruction, and even further from void manipulation.
 
@Genji

I don't see why Zeed's resistances are a problem when he literally fought the creator of all concepts, types, powers, timelines e.t.c. If you want to discuss this with me and Dark, come to my message wall rather than sneakily say it behind my back.

As stated before, Dialga and Palkia warp space-time to erase things, not by controlling the void or anything like that. Besides, they already have "Resistance to spacetime erasure" on their profiles.
 
Are you misunderstanding what I'm stating? I never once stated that ordinary pokemon are 4-D. The same applies to abilities, the Creation Trio created the concepts, not every individual ability.

Again, thisis Destruction/void manipulation. If they can tank eachother attacks, how is that not resistance to void manipulation or existence erasure?
 
@Reppuzan: Sneakily? I'm simply stating a fact. Zeed's resistances are based on assumptions due to fighting "God". Simply fighting the supreme being of your verse shouldn't give such resistances without any real justifications imo.
 
@Genji

Only Giratina uses the concept of the void, but even it hasn't utilized in its direct attacks from the best of my knowledge.

Wiping out space-time would achieve the same effect.
 
@Genji

Here go again... Look. I don't want to derail this thread, so why don't you come to my Message Wall? Alright?
 
@Genji

Literally no recent profile has ever used that term. I don't think we should use it as a definition.
 
@Genji

DontTalk already said no, since it's not the same (erasing space-time is not the same as erasing concepts or the soul e.t.c.).
 
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