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Skill Debate: Yujiro vs Hayato
- Thread starter BakiHanma18
- Start date
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We just prefer not to talk about that.Obscenly said:
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The feat was never the hardening of the hair, it was the pinpoint accuracy and precision of almost pricking Retsu's eye. Replace the hair with a pin or needle and the actual skill feat still stands
Removing the "not getting cut" aspect, what about the fact that Dorian, despite the surprise drop, spotted a nearby lamppost, looped the wire, around said post to create a sling, and angled himself into the sling in a manner that wouldn't allow for limb dislocation or choking, all while falling from a height that would've meant serious damage?
Okay
https://youtu.be/GGnrR1VJ8Xo< replicated by a human in real life. Now granted, he has the wooden board to support him, but the mention of Usain Bolt was clearly to show that despite Usain being the fastest man alive, he isn't capable of this feat at all, boards or not. While there is a factor of speed, all the things I mentioned prior, all of which would be considered skill, are just as important
While that is true, that isn't the focus of the segment, nor is it the point of the scene. Regardless of Doppo's stats, Baki focuses on the technical aspect of what he's doing. Everybody in the Maximum Tournament could dominate the black belt group, but not with the skill Doppo did, not with the lifetime of skill in karate he's been developing. The whole scene was clearly shown to convey what Doppo, a true master of karate, is capable of. Also, he was beating them 1 by 1, but back to back, and as I'll touch on in a bit, even if Doppo lowered himself to their stat level and took them on all at once, it likely wouldn't have made a difference
Removing the "not getting cut" aspect, what about the fact that Dorian, despite the surprise drop, spotted a nearby lamppost, looped the wire, around said post to create a sling, and angled himself into the sling in a manner that wouldn't allow for limb dislocation or choking, all while falling from a height that would've meant serious damage?
Okay
https://youtu.be/GGnrR1VJ8Xo< replicated by a human in real life. Now granted, he has the wooden board to support him, but the mention of Usain Bolt was clearly to show that despite Usain being the fastest man alive, he isn't capable of this feat at all, boards or not. While there is a factor of speed, all the things I mentioned prior, all of which would be considered skill, are just as important
While that is true, that isn't the focus of the segment, nor is it the point of the scene. Regardless of Doppo's stats, Baki focuses on the technical aspect of what he's doing. Everybody in the Maximum Tournament could dominate the black belt group, but not with the skill Doppo did, not with the lifetime of skill in karate he's been developing. The whole scene was clearly shown to convey what Doppo, a true master of karate, is capable of. Also, he was beating them 1 by 1, but back to back, and as I'll touch on in a bit, even if Doppo lowered himself to their stat level and took them on all at once, it likely wouldn't have made a difference
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Accuracy in blowing stuff at people is really not a skill feat. I told you, i've done it in middle school. It is really not impressive, the needle will follow the stream of the air blowing out of your mouth, as long as you are blowing in the correct direction and with enough force, it will be accurate.
Not getting damage is pure PIS or missunderstanding of the feat from our part (im gonna tend to go for the second as it seems like he was just holding on from the wire holder and then dropped the wire, but however you spin it, same thing). Noticing the lamp post....is that seriously impressive? Middle Class people can sense everything around them and just seeing the lamp post is impressive? Seriously?
Yes, false equivalence. That thing needs more skill than walking on water, because he has to make sure he steps right into the centre of the piece of wood, otherwise it would create rotation. Thing that doesn't happen if you were walking on actual water. Think of how it's harder to run on top of rocks than normal ground. It's because in one you have to be careful of where you step, you have to step in very specific spots otherwise you'd fall. The same really doesn't happen in the other case. So again, walking on water is plain speed, not a shred of skill. He can just remove his foot faster than the water tension breaks so that he won't sink.
Ugh if you REALLY wanna count that as impressive, here is miu Could instantly neutralize grown up terrorists as a child (less than 6 years old). There is Sieg trashing 2 people at the same time with 1 move. Here is Kenichi dealing with and overpowering 2 opponents front and behind at the same time while severely damaged (had several broken bones, was hospitalized etc etc). And here is Odin dealing with those same 2 opponents in an instant, effortlessly while crippled o a wheelchair he's amazing.
Not getting damage is pure PIS or missunderstanding of the feat from our part (im gonna tend to go for the second as it seems like he was just holding on from the wire holder and then dropped the wire, but however you spin it, same thing). Noticing the lamp post....is that seriously impressive? Middle Class people can sense everything around them and just seeing the lamp post is impressive? Seriously?
Yes, false equivalence. That thing needs more skill than walking on water, because he has to make sure he steps right into the centre of the piece of wood, otherwise it would create rotation. Thing that doesn't happen if you were walking on actual water. Think of how it's harder to run on top of rocks than normal ground. It's because in one you have to be careful of where you step, you have to step in very specific spots otherwise you'd fall. The same really doesn't happen in the other case. So again, walking on water is plain speed, not a shred of skill. He can just remove his foot faster than the water tension breaks so that he won't sink.
Ugh if you REALLY wanna count that as impressive, here is miu Could instantly neutralize grown up terrorists as a child (less than 6 years old). There is Sieg trashing 2 people at the same time with 1 move. Here is Kenichi dealing with and overpowering 2 opponents front and behind at the same time while severely damaged (had several broken bones, was hospitalized etc etc). And here is Odin dealing with those same 2 opponents in an instant, effortlessly while crippled o a wheelchair he's amazing.
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Even if it was just following the stream of air to hit its mark, to be able to create an air stream that carries a little hair-sized needle directly to what would have been the center of someone's eye from a several foot distance would also require massive amounts of skill. Real life dart player worth their salt find it generally difficult to just straight up hit a bullseye, and that's with a larger projectile, a larger board, a larger bullseye, and throwing the dart as opposed to blowing and flicking it
No, like I said before, noticing the lamppost, looping a sling around it with his wire, falling in the sling with it across his torso (around a limb may have lead to dislocation of the limb, and around the neck would've obviously choked him), doing so while surprised, and all while on a lethal timer, so under pressure
Not entirely. While he has the planks of wood to walk on, that doesn't mean that the elements he uses are completely void. As you can see in the clip, Retsu is straight up sinking, yet with his timing, weight distribution, etc, he and Doyle would sink. Like I said, there is a major element of speed, but just like with Pickle's FLS, the use of speed to do something does not intrinsically mean that there is no skill required.
I'd say Sieg's and Odin's feats are comparable. 2 people at once with one move is pretty solid, but Odin's is real good, since it doesn't particularly matter the skill level of his opponents since Odin himself was at a disadvantage
No, like I said before, noticing the lamppost, looping a sling around it with his wire, falling in the sling with it across his torso (around a limb may have lead to dislocation of the limb, and around the neck would've obviously choked him), doing so while surprised, and all while on a lethal timer, so under pressure
Not entirely. While he has the planks of wood to walk on, that doesn't mean that the elements he uses are completely void. As you can see in the clip, Retsu is straight up sinking, yet with his timing, weight distribution, etc, he and Doyle would sink. Like I said, there is a major element of speed, but just like with Pickle's FLS, the use of speed to do something does not intrinsically mean that there is no skill required.
I'd say Sieg's and Odin's feats are comparable. 2 people at once with one move is pretty solid, but Odin's is real good, since it doesn't particularly matter the skill level of his opponents since Odin himself was at a disadvantage
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You're comparing 2 different things now. And it was from a VERY small distance. Again it's easy to do it, we used to do it across the classroom with my mates. Not really anything worth anything at the current level.
Just speed.
No, dude, just no, just drop it. It's plain speed. No matter what you do to your weight it'll still fall in water, unlike the board case where you have to make sure it's on the centre. In water, no matter where you put your foot, it is the centre. Again, just drop this point. You're comparing 2 completely different things now.
>Comparable.
>A dude fighting 4 people 1 by one. And a cripple on a wheelchair with a pseudo strength disadvantage (cus of the wheelchair), dealing with 2 opponents at the same time. Or a dude desimating 2 dudes at the same time with the same move.
Let's...not. But whatever let's move on.
Just speed.
No, dude, just no, just drop it. It's plain speed. No matter what you do to your weight it'll still fall in water, unlike the board case where you have to make sure it's on the centre. In water, no matter where you put your foot, it is the centre. Again, just drop this point. You're comparing 2 completely different things now.
>Comparable.
>A dude fighting 4 people 1 by one. And a cripple on a wheelchair with a pseudo strength disadvantage (cus of the wheelchair), dealing with 2 opponents at the same time. Or a dude desimating 2 dudes at the same time with the same move.
Let's...not. But whatever let's move on.
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No, considering what I described, the hair being a small dart, the eye being a small dart board, and the pupil being a small bullseye, they are quite similar in fact. The distance is several feet, I mentioned. That's only because you're the most skilled in real life How is it easy? Darts is a game that requires considerable skill, and this is like darts on hard mode, what with everything being smaller
Except for the skill required for proper weight distribution and timing your steps properly
Except for the skill required for proper weight distribution and timing your steps properly
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Because, a dart has to be thrown by hand, which is not the same as that. Like dude, a friend of mine as a freshman once literally spit out a piece of gum from 4 meters away intothe waste bi. That's like average dude doing a similar feat.
You don't need to time your steps any more than you need to time your steps to run on land. It's just plain speed. Being able to go fast enough not to sink, because you're moving horizontally faster than you're sinking.
You don't need to time your steps any more than you need to time your steps to run on land. It's just plain speed. Being able to go fast enough not to sink, because you're moving horizontally faster than you're sinking.
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I thought of something kinda important as I sent out my last text that may help save time:Firephoenixearl said:
Say we were both to agree that these are skill feats and they are pretty impressive. Would that even change their skill positions as we already have them set as like High Disciple iirc? Because if not, I'll drop the point and continue with Doppo (in the future, I'll try to ask if the feat is worth arguing before arguing it)
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They really aren't. He's beating some people who are all fodder to him 1 by 1. As i said 6 year old Miu was trashing people far beyond her no problem. It really isn't worth arguing. High Class Disciple far dwarf that feat, so let's move on.
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AlrightFirephoenixearl said:
Next point for Doppo, he knows the original axe kick. I'm not sure if it does anything special, but judging based on Motobe's reaction, it's implied to be better than normal axe kicks, or at the very least it's portrayed as being a special move. Does decently against Yujiro despite the strength gap
https://imgur.com/a/811LS
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Is that supposed to be impressive or somehow any more quantifiable than normal axe kicks.
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It's unquantifiably better, but it is better, so I thought I'd make mentionFirephoenixearl said:
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If you insist, just gimme a bit to gather them upKGiffoni said:
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Baki just keeps mentioning lame feats even after so long. Like I showed you people outdoing stuff like Retsu's Xiao Lee and katsumi yet you're mentioning stuff like beating 4 dudes. Is that supposed to be more impressive than retus' feats? Just get to the good stuff quickly in other words what makes doppo better than everyone else mentioned yet.
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Doppo knew of the Udonde stance from the moment Yujiro started using it.
Doppo uses the Maeba stance to counter Yujiro's Udonde.
Uses Sangan in his fight against Yujiro.
Doppo crushes Yuu-Amanai's foot so he can't jump anymore. (for context, Doppo seems to have somewhat predicted, or at the very least reacted to, Yuu's No-Motion Jump Attack here, which is, and I quote, "a specific fighting move where the user propels himself into the air with telegraphing unnoticeable movement."
Blocks a low kick from Yuu-Amanai. (To give context, Yuu is Yujiro's apprentice at the time of this fight, which of course shows that since Yujiro is Yuu's master, Yujiro outskills him, but this really gives it better context on by how much. Yujiro fairly vastly outskills Doppo, and even Doppo can decently outskill Yuu)
Doppo uses a technique referred to as the tiger's mouth fist. Which removes an opponent's ability to think and see for a few moments.
This was followed up by a toe kick. Although at Doppo's level it turns his toes into a blade, making any point where he kicks a vital area.
Then, because he's a class act, Doppo wraps this home with a Fuumasatsu. Which just dislocates your jaw. (So casually whips out a combo of a decent technique, a good technique, and an impressive technique and strings them together like it's nothing)
Doppo uses a technique called Roppagaeshi. Which in short ******* destroys the sutures of your skulls.
Uses his circular guard to block fire.
He practiced Nukite on bound bamboo. (Not the durability aspect of smashing his hands, but the fact that he's able to cut bound bamboo with his bare hands, the same thing most Japanese Swordsman do to hone their swordsmanship, ie something they do with swords)
He can fight despite having sand blown into his eyes. (Can also fight while blinded)
Next 3 are part of the same feat of analytical predictio
Dorian is able to make people fight what equates to an illusion of themselves created by his opponent.
Doppo can land hits on Dorian anyways.
Because the version of Dorian that Doppo imagined performed every move that the real Dorian had ended up planning on doing.
Doppo is able to catch bladed weapons in his hands. (Dorian and Doppo are comparable in all stats, and Doppo has been shown to be able to be cut by things like Dorian's wire and Doyle's blades)
His looks better than his son's. (Better version of the bottle cut technique we said was like a mid Disciple thing iirc)
He knows of bare knuckle boxing techniques. (Knows techniques in bare knuckle boxing despite dedicating his life to karate)
Can sense a man's aura.
Just by a simple pass by he completely analyzes a man. (More analysis)
Doppo ends a dispute his own personal way.
Doppo hid in a dinosaur once. This dinosaur was in a highly protected military base. (Not quote combat applicable, but better than Dorian's prison sneak feat imo)
Miyamato Musashi says that he was unable to sever Doppo's head even with three tries. (If this somehow doesn't seem like an impressive skill feat, please, by all means, let me know so I can explain)
Blitzes the hell out of a trained fighter.
Gives a man sight using pressure points. (If he's fighting someone blind and wants to use Invisible Squash or someone else, he can... unblind him and then reblind him)
THAT TIME DOPPO KILLED A ******* TIGER WITH HIS BARE HANDS! (May be more of an AP feat, thought I mention it since it's his "most impressive feat" in general)
Edit: never mind, upon a second reading, it would seem both Doppo and the Tiger consider each other equals physically
Thought this one was cool: Yujiro did a move called Udonde where he has no blind spots in his Seikuuken, or "Dominance Zone", and Doppo has a move that can counter it. Not sure if the "no blind spot Seikuuken" is skill, but countering it should be, right? I'll grab scans in a bit.
Edit: ^ Udonde and Maeba Stance, the 0 blind spot Seikuuken and it's counter, are close to the top
Doppo uses the Maeba stance to counter Yujiro's Udonde.
Uses Sangan in his fight against Yujiro.
Doppo crushes Yuu-Amanai's foot so he can't jump anymore. (for context, Doppo seems to have somewhat predicted, or at the very least reacted to, Yuu's No-Motion Jump Attack here, which is, and I quote, "a specific fighting move where the user propels himself into the air with telegraphing unnoticeable movement."
Blocks a low kick from Yuu-Amanai. (To give context, Yuu is Yujiro's apprentice at the time of this fight, which of course shows that since Yujiro is Yuu's master, Yujiro outskills him, but this really gives it better context on by how much. Yujiro fairly vastly outskills Doppo, and even Doppo can decently outskill Yuu)
Doppo uses a technique referred to as the tiger's mouth fist. Which removes an opponent's ability to think and see for a few moments.
This was followed up by a toe kick. Although at Doppo's level it turns his toes into a blade, making any point where he kicks a vital area.
Then, because he's a class act, Doppo wraps this home with a Fuumasatsu. Which just dislocates your jaw. (So casually whips out a combo of a decent technique, a good technique, and an impressive technique and strings them together like it's nothing)
Doppo uses a technique called Roppagaeshi. Which in short ******* destroys the sutures of your skulls.
Uses his circular guard to block fire.
He practiced Nukite on bound bamboo. (Not the durability aspect of smashing his hands, but the fact that he's able to cut bound bamboo with his bare hands, the same thing most Japanese Swordsman do to hone their swordsmanship, ie something they do with swords)
He can fight despite having sand blown into his eyes. (Can also fight while blinded)
Next 3 are part of the same feat of analytical predictio
Dorian is able to make people fight what equates to an illusion of themselves created by his opponent.
Doppo can land hits on Dorian anyways.
Because the version of Dorian that Doppo imagined performed every move that the real Dorian had ended up planning on doing.
Doppo is able to catch bladed weapons in his hands. (Dorian and Doppo are comparable in all stats, and Doppo has been shown to be able to be cut by things like Dorian's wire and Doyle's blades)
His looks better than his son's. (Better version of the bottle cut technique we said was like a mid Disciple thing iirc)
He knows of bare knuckle boxing techniques. (Knows techniques in bare knuckle boxing despite dedicating his life to karate)
Can sense a man's aura.
Just by a simple pass by he completely analyzes a man. (More analysis)
Doppo ends a dispute his own personal way.
Doppo hid in a dinosaur once. This dinosaur was in a highly protected military base. (Not quote combat applicable, but better than Dorian's prison sneak feat imo)
Miyamato Musashi says that he was unable to sever Doppo's head even with three tries. (If this somehow doesn't seem like an impressive skill feat, please, by all means, let me know so I can explain)
Blitzes the hell out of a trained fighter.
Gives a man sight using pressure points. (If he's fighting someone blind and wants to use Invisible Squash or someone else, he can... unblind him and then reblind him)
THAT TIME DOPPO KILLED A ******* TIGER WITH HIS BARE HANDS! (May be more of an AP feat, thought I mention it since it's his "most impressive feat" in general)
Edit: never mind, upon a second reading, it would seem both Doppo and the Tiger consider each other equals physically
Thought this one was cool: Yujiro did a move called Udonde where he has no blind spots in his Seikuuken, or "Dominance Zone", and Doppo has a move that can counter it. Not sure if the "no blind spot Seikuuken" is skill, but countering it should be, right? I'll grab scans in a bit.
Edit: ^ Udonde and Maeba Stance, the 0 blind spot Seikuuken and it's counter, are close to the top
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Yeah, in his younger years, he fought a guy that was insanely skilled and pretty strong and fast too, but the guy was blind. Doppo decided to uses those pressure points, Myoukou or something like that, to cure his blindness to overload his ocular senses and brain, getting a free shot in and winningKGiffoni said:
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I'll get to those when I get home.
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Ok, just knowledge.
Nothing too....impressive. It was a stance made to "counter" stuff without a stance. So he just waited for Yujiro to attack before attacking back. It's really nothing impressive.
About Sangan, where does it say it is a rection speed amp? I remeber you saying that before. It's just a way to look with your eyes separately. People outdo that by sheer sensing or seikuken in Kenichi.
He just crushed his foot. The prediction really ain't the case, Yuu had demolished several other people before, ofc Doppo had realized he was a fighter who uses kicks. Not to mention iirc there was someone who noticed he was a kick based fighter just from his body structure (more developed legs, less developed body).
Being Yujiro's apprentice doesn't mean anything. It's like saying BoS kenichi should scale above a ton of people because he is Hayato's apprentice.
How's that much different than a normal eye poke? As for the "ability to think" it pales in comparison to the render unconscious by disrupting brain waves feat i showed you above.
That's just strenght, Doppo has trained his toes and fingers to perform moves before so much so that he'd keep on crushing his fingers until he could pierce wood or sth like that. That's just being strong.
Dislocation isn't all that impressive, here is a blind dude dislocating a surprise attack. Dislocated Takeda's punch even though it was a surprise attack from behind.
That is again, not much skill, it's just his finger strength again.
That's not skill, finger strength and endurance.
Odin fights Kenichi by taking off his glasses (on prediction alone). And i mean the entirety of the fight. As for the rest, it still isn't comparable to Odin as Doppo was still attacking air for quite some time, Odin has 100% accuracy with any hit even when taking off his glases (due to Analytical Prediction), even before Kenichi starts to attack he has already seen throgh his next move. And it took him literal seconds to understand Apachai's rythym (Kenichi was using Apachai's rythym) when using Shigure he literally had to change his pattern after 1 hit (implying Odin would've seen through it).
Catching a weapon with your hand. That's like...basic of basis even for normal martial artists.
Still not comparable to Kenichi cutting odin (a comparable/superior opponent).
Ok...? Kenichi knew like 5 martial arts after 2 months of training, so why even bring it up?
Sensing gets outdone by High Class Disciples by a massive amount.
Ok, gets outdone by Tirawit who knew the intentions of a dude he just saw, the class of the family as well as body structure and the fact that he was a bully.
That's not skill, it's AP.
He didn't really hide there, as in, he didn't "get in". He was in when the dinosaur was built. From the structure it didn't seem like there was any way in. But idk how getting inside stuff is combat skill either way.
That was just Miyamoto's illusionary fight with someone, as for that, he just neutralized the hits through unknown means. It's really not impressive when even Retsu managed to deal with him. So considering Doppo > Retsu and even retsu did a similar feat, it really isn't all that impressive.
That's speed.
That's not all that combat applicable, but that's still massively outdone by that Doctor Body Builder dude (he was amazing xD). But even then, Kenichi healed himself from dying on a cellular level pressure points attack, and even healed the dude who used the technique which had resulted in himself destroying his own ki flow, yet Kenichi healed that with a punch.
As for the tiger feat. You mentioned it yourself, "an equal physically", so like...is being more skilled than an animal a feat?
Nothing too....impressive. It was a stance made to "counter" stuff without a stance. So he just waited for Yujiro to attack before attacking back. It's really nothing impressive.
About Sangan, where does it say it is a rection speed amp? I remeber you saying that before. It's just a way to look with your eyes separately. People outdo that by sheer sensing or seikuken in Kenichi.
He just crushed his foot. The prediction really ain't the case, Yuu had demolished several other people before, ofc Doppo had realized he was a fighter who uses kicks. Not to mention iirc there was someone who noticed he was a kick based fighter just from his body structure (more developed legs, less developed body).
Being Yujiro's apprentice doesn't mean anything. It's like saying BoS kenichi should scale above a ton of people because he is Hayato's apprentice.
How's that much different than a normal eye poke? As for the "ability to think" it pales in comparison to the render unconscious by disrupting brain waves feat i showed you above.
That's just strenght, Doppo has trained his toes and fingers to perform moves before so much so that he'd keep on crushing his fingers until he could pierce wood or sth like that. That's just being strong.
Dislocation isn't all that impressive, here is a blind dude dislocating a surprise attack. Dislocated Takeda's punch even though it was a surprise attack from behind.
That is again, not much skill, it's just his finger strength again.
That's not skill, finger strength and endurance.
Odin fights Kenichi by taking off his glasses (on prediction alone). And i mean the entirety of the fight. As for the rest, it still isn't comparable to Odin as Doppo was still attacking air for quite some time, Odin has 100% accuracy with any hit even when taking off his glases (due to Analytical Prediction), even before Kenichi starts to attack he has already seen throgh his next move. And it took him literal seconds to understand Apachai's rythym (Kenichi was using Apachai's rythym) when using Shigure he literally had to change his pattern after 1 hit (implying Odin would've seen through it).
Catching a weapon with your hand. That's like...basic of basis even for normal martial artists.
Still not comparable to Kenichi cutting odin (a comparable/superior opponent).
Ok...? Kenichi knew like 5 martial arts after 2 months of training, so why even bring it up?
Sensing gets outdone by High Class Disciples by a massive amount.
Ok, gets outdone by Tirawit who knew the intentions of a dude he just saw, the class of the family as well as body structure and the fact that he was a bully.
That's not skill, it's AP.
He didn't really hide there, as in, he didn't "get in". He was in when the dinosaur was built. From the structure it didn't seem like there was any way in. But idk how getting inside stuff is combat skill either way.
That was just Miyamoto's illusionary fight with someone, as for that, he just neutralized the hits through unknown means. It's really not impressive when even Retsu managed to deal with him. So considering Doppo > Retsu and even retsu did a similar feat, it really isn't all that impressive.
That's speed.
That's not all that combat applicable, but that's still massively outdone by that Doctor Body Builder dude (he was amazing xD). But even then, Kenichi healed himself from dying on a cellular level pressure points attack, and even healed the dude who used the technique which had resulted in himself destroying his own ki flow, yet Kenichi healed that with a punch.
As for the tiger feat. You mentioned it yourself, "an equal physically", so like...is being more skilled than an animal a feat?
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Well, Baki wanted to go by scaling to see where they end up.
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Besides haven't i been posting Kenichi feats to answer every feat?
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No, analysis and recognition of a technique with no stance
No, a stance to counter 0 blind spot Seikuuken Udonde
Doppo was getting blitzed, then perfectly blocks every attack Yujiro throws. "The user must look squint his eyes in every direction, allowing him to see at every angle. He needs to perfectly control the eyes' sinew in order to obtain a chameleon's eye movements. Accorded to Izou Motobe, Sangan originates from ancient martial arts of India, and it allowed monks to defend against rains of arrows.
No, he reacted to No-Motion Jump and predicted where Yuu's foot would end up, smashing it and weakening the move
What are you talking about? If Yujiro recognizes that Yuu is skilled enough to be his apprentice, that speaks volumes for his martial skill. It's blatantly obvious that Yujiro is a man with standards
Because he's blinding them without even touching their eye, he's slamming the bridge of their nose. Poking out their eyes would just be AP. And no, that's not necessarily true. The 2 moves serve 2 different purposes: on top of this one being much easier to pull off in a combat setting, the move isn't made to KO the opponent, it's made to make an opening to attack
No, no matter how strong someone is, they will never be able to kick someone in a manner in which their toe feels like a blade. The way in which he was able to make it feel like a blade was by focusing the whole kick into the very tip of his toe like a knife (also known as a skill feat)
That dislocation feat is more impressive
Bro no it's not XD, he's literally using a technique to undo the suturing of Yuu's skull. I think you're missing the forest for the trees with these skill feats. Just because something involves AP or speed does not make it an AP or skill feat. For example, I could say NnC is just a speed feat since Sieg is just fast enough to rotate his body to avoid damage, or Taksousho is just AP since the damage part comes from the user hitting their elbow, but that's barely a part of the move and at best downplay
No, he's literally cutting bound bamboo with his hands, using a technique, Nukite. That's a skill feat
Being blinded is absolutely nothing compared to being hypnotized. Doppo was hitting air because he thought he was hitting Dorian, and the second Dorian tried to attack, Doppo knew everything he was going to do. Doppo's feat is much better
So the Kenichiverse has a comparable feat of catching a blade bare-handed from an opponent of similar speed?
Cutting a person and cutting a bottle are 2 massively different things, but if you want to compare them, the bottle feat is better. Both Katsumi and Doppo are millions of times stronger than the bottle, yet they were able to cleanly slice the bottle without even so much as cracking it, let alone shattering it, even much more so not even knocking it over
Because Doppo has dedicated his life to one martial art. He's the man that's practiced 1 kick 10,000x. Kenichi would just be the man that practiced 10,000 kicks 1 time
That's better than Doppo's sensing
That's actually not better. Doppo just glanced at this guy in a crowd of people and he could tell the kind of person he was as far as basically denoting that he was a bloodlusted bum or poor person, that he was armed, what he was armed with, and where it was
He dismantled and got inside of it, unless you're saying he somehow was inside a plastic dinosaur when it was built, somehow magically knew it was going to decorate Pickle's exhibit, and even if all of that were true, Doppo still would've had to either get placed in Pickle's exhibit area in a highly secured military base without getting picked up by the people who set up the exhibit or by all the security tech, sneak into the military base in a ****** dino, or (what I think is more likely) sneak into the military base and passed all the security, deconstruct the Dino and put it on, and wait until everyone showed up to bust out
Lolno to all of this. Musashi literally projects an illusion of himself slicing someone with his sword which is so convincing, one guy even felt all of his "trillions of cells" dying from the slice. Retsu had baseline Xiao-Lee which basically lolnopes damage, Doppo does not, so that's a false equivalency. Also, Retsu still died, Doppo didn't even get hit. This is an insane skill feat
You said earlier some people in the higher classes are blind. Either they're blind and he can use these pressure points to overload their ocular system or they aren't blind and Invisible Squash or Tiger's Mouth Fist work their magic
It's not actually possible to cause cellular death with pressure points, that's just fiction, and it's not possible to heal cellular death, let alone with a punch
Outskilling someone who is physically your equal is a skill feat, yes.
No, a stance to counter 0 blind spot Seikuuken Udonde
Doppo was getting blitzed, then perfectly blocks every attack Yujiro throws. "The user must look squint his eyes in every direction, allowing him to see at every angle. He needs to perfectly control the eyes' sinew in order to obtain a chameleon's eye movements. Accorded to Izou Motobe, Sangan originates from ancient martial arts of India, and it allowed monks to defend against rains of arrows.
No, he reacted to No-Motion Jump and predicted where Yuu's foot would end up, smashing it and weakening the move
What are you talking about? If Yujiro recognizes that Yuu is skilled enough to be his apprentice, that speaks volumes for his martial skill. It's blatantly obvious that Yujiro is a man with standards
Because he's blinding them without even touching their eye, he's slamming the bridge of their nose. Poking out their eyes would just be AP. And no, that's not necessarily true. The 2 moves serve 2 different purposes: on top of this one being much easier to pull off in a combat setting, the move isn't made to KO the opponent, it's made to make an opening to attack
No, no matter how strong someone is, they will never be able to kick someone in a manner in which their toe feels like a blade. The way in which he was able to make it feel like a blade was by focusing the whole kick into the very tip of his toe like a knife (also known as a skill feat)
That dislocation feat is more impressive
Bro no it's not XD, he's literally using a technique to undo the suturing of Yuu's skull. I think you're missing the forest for the trees with these skill feats. Just because something involves AP or speed does not make it an AP or skill feat. For example, I could say NnC is just a speed feat since Sieg is just fast enough to rotate his body to avoid damage, or Taksousho is just AP since the damage part comes from the user hitting their elbow, but that's barely a part of the move and at best downplay
No, he's literally cutting bound bamboo with his hands, using a technique, Nukite. That's a skill feat
Being blinded is absolutely nothing compared to being hypnotized. Doppo was hitting air because he thought he was hitting Dorian, and the second Dorian tried to attack, Doppo knew everything he was going to do. Doppo's feat is much better
So the Kenichiverse has a comparable feat of catching a blade bare-handed from an opponent of similar speed?
Cutting a person and cutting a bottle are 2 massively different things, but if you want to compare them, the bottle feat is better. Both Katsumi and Doppo are millions of times stronger than the bottle, yet they were able to cleanly slice the bottle without even so much as cracking it, let alone shattering it, even much more so not even knocking it over
Because Doppo has dedicated his life to one martial art. He's the man that's practiced 1 kick 10,000x. Kenichi would just be the man that practiced 10,000 kicks 1 time
That's better than Doppo's sensing
That's actually not better. Doppo just glanced at this guy in a crowd of people and he could tell the kind of person he was as far as basically denoting that he was a bloodlusted bum or poor person, that he was armed, what he was armed with, and where it was
He dismantled and got inside of it, unless you're saying he somehow was inside a plastic dinosaur when it was built, somehow magically knew it was going to decorate Pickle's exhibit, and even if all of that were true, Doppo still would've had to either get placed in Pickle's exhibit area in a highly secured military base without getting picked up by the people who set up the exhibit or by all the security tech, sneak into the military base in a ****** dino, or (what I think is more likely) sneak into the military base and passed all the security, deconstruct the Dino and put it on, and wait until everyone showed up to bust out
Lolno to all of this. Musashi literally projects an illusion of himself slicing someone with his sword which is so convincing, one guy even felt all of his "trillions of cells" dying from the slice. Retsu had baseline Xiao-Lee which basically lolnopes damage, Doppo does not, so that's a false equivalency. Also, Retsu still died, Doppo didn't even get hit. This is an insane skill feat
You said earlier some people in the higher classes are blind. Either they're blind and he can use these pressure points to overload their ocular system or they aren't blind and Invisible Squash or Tiger's Mouth Fist work their magic
It's not actually possible to cause cellular death with pressure points, that's just fiction, and it's not possible to heal cellular death, let alone with a punch
Outskilling someone who is physically your equal is a skill feat, yes.
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Yeah, we can take a break from Baki feats after we get Doppo sortedKGiffoni said:
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Not really. He just knew what Udone looked like. Nothing even remotely impressive. It's like saying "oh that's karate" if someone uses a move you know from Karate.
Yes, but the blind spots never mattered. He didn't enter the blind spot of that move. He just attacked when the opponent was attacking, basically when he droped the Udon stance.
The move has literally nothing to do with speed though. It's just seeing in all directions. And he was never blitzed. Being in a continuous block string doesn't mean you're getting blitzed. Though back to the point, a move isn't speed amp, if it has literally nothing to do with it in explanation.
Oh, amazing, predicted where someone would land. How could anyone ever do that? Dude are you serious? Is that rly a notable feat?
Could say the same for Hayato. Hayato iirc has only ever taken Kenichi as a disciple (disciples that aren't family i mean). Being a man with standards doesn't mean you just compare him to Yujiro in any way at all. And if you really wanna compare him to people in skill than tell me with proof just where he would end up in skill. You can't give any proof with just "he's Yuji's disciple", and it's just blocking a low kick, from a dude far less skilled than Doppo himself and weaker. Is that really impressive? Because you're literally downscaling at this point. What's the point of saying "doppo is better than people below him" well ofc.
That does still require AP. It's the same as a head butt, but with your hand. And how is "it creates an oppening for attack" better than "complete knock out for several hours"?
It's not pure AP, it's bone strength. Either way, not skill.
Which one? Lugh's dislocation feat or Doppo's?
Yes, but it has nothing to do with skill. He's just slamming the dude's heads with his fingers. What part of it is skill? It's just knowledge of the human anatomy, but that's like...average highschool student knowledge.
Cutting bambu with skill. Nope, he's literally slamming his hands so many times his bones start beoming strong. How do you just "pierce bambu with skill". Dude it is just training for his bones, you can literally see him break his fingers with the first tries.
Yes, but Dorian wasn't predicting for shit for half of that fight. If his prediction were that good he wouldn't be hitting air. And Odin predicted an entire rythym (fighting style and all upcoming moves with 100% accuracy) after only 1 hit. That's far more than anything Doppo has done. Not to mention it still pales in comparison to predicting all possible moves of people FAR more skilled than them that HDC can do. About the illusion and blinding. It is the same, as Odin wasn't using other senses, he was only using prediction to fight off Kenichi with, i repeat 100% accuracy, a move that can never miss. Something Doppo has never even come close to doing.
No, my point is, normal humans can do that.
Again with that? No dude, drop it. Are you gonna count these guys not crushing the door knob when entering as a skill feat cus "they are so much stronger"? AP difference has nothing to do with these kinds of feats (including everyday objects). And cutting something as fragile as glass versus cutting something that's stronger than you with your bare hands. Which is more combat oriented i wonder.
Ok, but performing a boxing move just means he did practice that move at least a bit. Idk how your point stands.
Lugh is blind, yet the moment Sieg walked up to him lugh said "a counter type". He analyzes entire fighting styles, injuries etc etc.He also has insanely good information anaylsis. Yes, pretty mother f-ing stupid info analysis. Whereas most of what Doppo did was just good one (could smell metal) and a bunch of other senses.
I mean, im not saying anything, but the feat is so vague it's stupid. He was inside a dinosaur, the rest is pure headcanon on both of our parts. But if it's a stealth feat (which that is by no means a stealth feat and it is not even combat applicable). Supermasters can literally walk in and out of the best prision (made specifically to jail them), without anyone noticing.
Doppo did not have Xiao Lee, but he is more skilled than a dude who does. So...just upscaling from Retsu really. This is all just scaling.
Overload their sight? How?
I guess KG answered this.
No, no, no, no. You're not outskilling "someone" you're outskilling an actual animal. A freaking animal. So your point is "Doppo is more skilled than an animal". Sure, if you think that's impressive for a dude who's like...beyond karate masters in skill.
Yes, but the blind spots never mattered. He didn't enter the blind spot of that move. He just attacked when the opponent was attacking, basically when he droped the Udon stance.
The move has literally nothing to do with speed though. It's just seeing in all directions. And he was never blitzed. Being in a continuous block string doesn't mean you're getting blitzed. Though back to the point, a move isn't speed amp, if it has literally nothing to do with it in explanation.
Oh, amazing, predicted where someone would land. How could anyone ever do that? Dude are you serious? Is that rly a notable feat?
Could say the same for Hayato. Hayato iirc has only ever taken Kenichi as a disciple (disciples that aren't family i mean). Being a man with standards doesn't mean you just compare him to Yujiro in any way at all. And if you really wanna compare him to people in skill than tell me with proof just where he would end up in skill. You can't give any proof with just "he's Yuji's disciple", and it's just blocking a low kick, from a dude far less skilled than Doppo himself and weaker. Is that really impressive? Because you're literally downscaling at this point. What's the point of saying "doppo is better than people below him" well ofc.
That does still require AP. It's the same as a head butt, but with your hand. And how is "it creates an oppening for attack" better than "complete knock out for several hours"?
It's not pure AP, it's bone strength. Either way, not skill.
Which one? Lugh's dislocation feat or Doppo's?
Yes, but it has nothing to do with skill. He's just slamming the dude's heads with his fingers. What part of it is skill? It's just knowledge of the human anatomy, but that's like...average highschool student knowledge.
Cutting bambu with skill. Nope, he's literally slamming his hands so many times his bones start beoming strong. How do you just "pierce bambu with skill". Dude it is just training for his bones, you can literally see him break his fingers with the first tries.
Yes, but Dorian wasn't predicting for shit for half of that fight. If his prediction were that good he wouldn't be hitting air. And Odin predicted an entire rythym (fighting style and all upcoming moves with 100% accuracy) after only 1 hit. That's far more than anything Doppo has done. Not to mention it still pales in comparison to predicting all possible moves of people FAR more skilled than them that HDC can do. About the illusion and blinding. It is the same, as Odin wasn't using other senses, he was only using prediction to fight off Kenichi with, i repeat 100% accuracy, a move that can never miss. Something Doppo has never even come close to doing.
No, my point is, normal humans can do that.
Again with that? No dude, drop it. Are you gonna count these guys not crushing the door knob when entering as a skill feat cus "they are so much stronger"? AP difference has nothing to do with these kinds of feats (including everyday objects). And cutting something as fragile as glass versus cutting something that's stronger than you with your bare hands. Which is more combat oriented i wonder.
Ok, but performing a boxing move just means he did practice that move at least a bit. Idk how your point stands.
Lugh is blind, yet the moment Sieg walked up to him lugh said "a counter type". He analyzes entire fighting styles, injuries etc etc.He also has insanely good information anaylsis. Yes, pretty mother f-ing stupid info analysis. Whereas most of what Doppo did was just good one (could smell metal) and a bunch of other senses.
I mean, im not saying anything, but the feat is so vague it's stupid. He was inside a dinosaur, the rest is pure headcanon on both of our parts. But if it's a stealth feat (which that is by no means a stealth feat and it is not even combat applicable). Supermasters can literally walk in and out of the best prision (made specifically to jail them), without anyone noticing.
Doppo did not have Xiao Lee, but he is more skilled than a dude who does. So...just upscaling from Retsu really. This is all just scaling.
Overload their sight? How?
I guess KG answered this.
No, no, no, no. You're not outskilling "someone" you're outskilling an actual animal. A freaking animal. So your point is "Doppo is more skilled than an animal". Sure, if you think that's impressive for a dude who's like...beyond karate masters in skill.
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I feel like a lot of characters up here suffer from massively unquantifiable feats and (albeit this is a lesser issue) incredibly poor descriptions for their feats.
The idea that a feat must be vaguely replicable in real life, with maybe a dash of fiction (e.g. pressure pointing cells) seems like a quite reasonable standard. Additionally, I find that skill feats that actually explain, logically and sensibly, are the most valuable skill feats one can have, not to mention an indicator of actual, quality writing.
I wish the skill list valued things like that more.
The idea that a feat must be vaguely replicable in real life, with maybe a dash of fiction (e.g. pressure pointing cells) seems like a quite reasonable standard. Additionally, I find that skill feats that actually explain, logically and sensibly, are the most valuable skill feats one can have, not to mention an indicator of actual, quality writing.
I wish the skill list valued things like that more.
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Any particular example of this comes to mind? Because I'm not really sure how this is any different from what we have.Moritzva said:
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Eh, I don't have any particular characters in the Top List I could draw from, nor do I have any who could compete even under my standards. I just find that battle skill/strategy is more impressive when you can legitimately see how they came up with their plan (Take Kaiji's gambling plans, you can follow them and see how ingenious they are. Not battling, but it represents it well.)
Those feats mean a lot, to me.
Those feats mean a lot, to me.
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False Equivalency. Karate has a stance and it's quite largely used in modern time. Udonde is stanceless and is an ancient martial art that nobody but Yujiro even knows anymore
No, for one, Udonde doesn't have a blind spot. For second, the reason Maeba Stance worked is because they're both counters: Udonde has no stance so people are baited into attacking only to get countered. Doppo didn't attack, so Yujiro initiated the attack part of Udonde, which Doppo in turn countered
It's treated as a speed amp on the site for this explicit reason: being able to see more angles doesn't mean reaction speed is boosted, yet the move very clearly boosts Doppo's reaction speed. He literally goes from only being able to block and nothing else to parrying each individual strike, I don't know what to tell you
Ah yes of course, how much skill could be involved in predicting the trajectory of a move that "telegraphs unnoticeable movements".......
I don't understand why you mention that like that isn't a skill feat. The point isn't to make Doppo seem more impressive, all of these skills are feats for Yujiro, as he's as good as or better than all of these characters at even their own respective martial arts. The point is not "Doppo is better than someone below him", it's "the gap between someone like Yuu, who has a move like No-Motion Jump, which like I mentioned earlier telegraphs unnoticeable movements, and Doppo is fairly big, and Yujiro ***** on Doppo in skill".
Yes, AP is required in a vast majority of every martial arts and technique in both real life and fiction, and no, a headbutt's primary goal is to damage. This specifically applies this blinding effect. And I didn't mean it was better, I meant it's apples and oranges. Doppo's not even trying to knock Yuu out, and likewise, the goal of the brain wave technique isn't to create an opening, they just do 2 different things in similar manners
It's skill for the reason I already mentioned
Lugh's. Doppo's is a pretty basic dislocation by comparison
"the ability to do something well; expertise." "a particular ability." And also, no, if he were "just slamming his head with his fingers", the skull would just shatter or crack. He undoing the suturing of the skull. That's absolutely laughable, please don't say things like that. "NnC isn't impressive, even small children can rotate" "How is Taksousho impressive? Even I could do that"
Cutting bamboo with skill. Yes, he's literally using Nukite, a technique named Knife Hand, to pierce through bamboo with skill, seems pretty self-evident to me. He sure does break his fingers, still cuts through the bamboo though (also, operative words being "first tries")
Okay, I linked like 6 links, but I guess I'm still going to have to explain it 10 times. The reason Doppo was hitting air is because he was fighting Dorian's illusion. He was hypnotized. He was predicting every single attack Dorian would try and fighting Dorian. While Doppo was hitting air, not only was Doppo fighting a fake Dorian, but the real Dorian wasn't even attacking him. Dorian starts fighting, and he gets 100% predicted by Doppo who is still hypnotized. All 5 of Doppo's senses were being tricked, being blinded is literally 1/5 as impressive and at least he was seeing nothing. Doppo was actively seeing incorrectly, and he still 100% correctly predicted everything Dorian was going to do. Doppo's feat is better
Proof?
False equivalency of the door example aside, yes it does. It's quite simple really: both Doppo and Katsumi are skilled enough to slice off a part of a bottle without cracking, shattering, or knocking it over. Cutting something stronger than you is just AP, cutting something significantly weaker than you and not shattering it or even knocking it over is actual skill
Even a blind guy that showed up one time in Baki could tell Doppo's weight, height, build, and style based on the sound of his footsteps. Doppo, again, just glancing at this guy in a crowd, knew he was bloodlusted, dirty, likely a homeless or criminal, that he was armed, what he was armed with, how long the blade was, where it was, and that he had it wrapped in paper, all with 100% accuracy
Regardless of how he got in, removing any headcanon, he got into a highly secured military base. It may not be as impressive as what a Supermaster can do, but it's something, considering Dorian can do something similar to a Supermaster as we discussed earlier, just a watered down version
The blind guy he fought was matching him in skill, so he gave their sight back with pressure points (the pic I linked), and as his brain had never had to process ocular information before, all the shapes, motion, and color overloaded his brain just briefly enough for Doppo to get a free hit
Cellular death from pressure points is not an exaggeration of something that his possible in real life. Pressure points can kill, but causing cellular death via Ki manipulation is purely fiction
He's outskilling an entity his physical equal. It's a skill feat fairly impossible to be claimed as "just AP or speed", so I felt it necessary to include
No, for one, Udonde doesn't have a blind spot. For second, the reason Maeba Stance worked is because they're both counters: Udonde has no stance so people are baited into attacking only to get countered. Doppo didn't attack, so Yujiro initiated the attack part of Udonde, which Doppo in turn countered
It's treated as a speed amp on the site for this explicit reason: being able to see more angles doesn't mean reaction speed is boosted, yet the move very clearly boosts Doppo's reaction speed. He literally goes from only being able to block and nothing else to parrying each individual strike, I don't know what to tell you
Ah yes of course, how much skill could be involved in predicting the trajectory of a move that "telegraphs unnoticeable movements".......
I don't understand why you mention that like that isn't a skill feat. The point isn't to make Doppo seem more impressive, all of these skills are feats for Yujiro, as he's as good as or better than all of these characters at even their own respective martial arts. The point is not "Doppo is better than someone below him", it's "the gap between someone like Yuu, who has a move like No-Motion Jump, which like I mentioned earlier telegraphs unnoticeable movements, and Doppo is fairly big, and Yujiro ***** on Doppo in skill".
Yes, AP is required in a vast majority of every martial arts and technique in both real life and fiction, and no, a headbutt's primary goal is to damage. This specifically applies this blinding effect. And I didn't mean it was better, I meant it's apples and oranges. Doppo's not even trying to knock Yuu out, and likewise, the goal of the brain wave technique isn't to create an opening, they just do 2 different things in similar manners
It's skill for the reason I already mentioned
Lugh's. Doppo's is a pretty basic dislocation by comparison
"the ability to do something well; expertise." "a particular ability." And also, no, if he were "just slamming his head with his fingers", the skull would just shatter or crack. He undoing the suturing of the skull. That's absolutely laughable, please don't say things like that. "NnC isn't impressive, even small children can rotate" "How is Taksousho impressive? Even I could do that"
Cutting bamboo with skill. Yes, he's literally using Nukite, a technique named Knife Hand, to pierce through bamboo with skill, seems pretty self-evident to me. He sure does break his fingers, still cuts through the bamboo though (also, operative words being "first tries")
Okay, I linked like 6 links, but I guess I'm still going to have to explain it 10 times. The reason Doppo was hitting air is because he was fighting Dorian's illusion. He was hypnotized. He was predicting every single attack Dorian would try and fighting Dorian. While Doppo was hitting air, not only was Doppo fighting a fake Dorian, but the real Dorian wasn't even attacking him. Dorian starts fighting, and he gets 100% predicted by Doppo who is still hypnotized. All 5 of Doppo's senses were being tricked, being blinded is literally 1/5 as impressive and at least he was seeing nothing. Doppo was actively seeing incorrectly, and he still 100% correctly predicted everything Dorian was going to do. Doppo's feat is better
Proof?
False equivalency of the door example aside, yes it does. It's quite simple really: both Doppo and Katsumi are skilled enough to slice off a part of a bottle without cracking, shattering, or knocking it over. Cutting something stronger than you is just AP, cutting something significantly weaker than you and not shattering it or even knocking it over is actual skill
Even a blind guy that showed up one time in Baki could tell Doppo's weight, height, build, and style based on the sound of his footsteps. Doppo, again, just glancing at this guy in a crowd, knew he was bloodlusted, dirty, likely a homeless or criminal, that he was armed, what he was armed with, how long the blade was, where it was, and that he had it wrapped in paper, all with 100% accuracy
Regardless of how he got in, removing any headcanon, he got into a highly secured military base. It may not be as impressive as what a Supermaster can do, but it's something, considering Dorian can do something similar to a Supermaster as we discussed earlier, just a watered down version
The blind guy he fought was matching him in skill, so he gave their sight back with pressure points (the pic I linked), and as his brain had never had to process ocular information before, all the shapes, motion, and color overloaded his brain just briefly enough for Doppo to get a free hit
Cellular death from pressure points is not an exaggeration of something that his possible in real life. Pressure points can kill, but causing cellular death via Ki manipulation is purely fiction
He's outskilling an entity his physical equal. It's a skill feat fairly impossible to be claimed as "just AP or speed", so I felt it necessary to include
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