Skill Debate: Yujiro vs Hayato

[BakiHanma18]

In the last comment, I mentioned about how he gets stabbed in the gut by Doppo's knife kick and has his skull literally opened and can still fight. A simple hard hit to the bridge of the nose wouldn't produce more than at least the skull yeeting, so Roppa Gaeshi would be much more likely to inhibit thinking via pain if it was just pain. Kenichi's counter I would say would just end up getting Maeba'd, but Lugh's skill aspect, while still under threat of Maeba, is still really good because he's blind

That's the point of Nukite: by reducing the surface area of the point of contact to just the middle finger in essence, it pierces better than anything human hands are normally capable of. 1) Fair enough. 2) The fact that his fingers got yeeted is a tolerance feat, but it would be a tolerance feat regardless of whether or not the bamboo was pierced. He could've just continued attacking the bamboo and smashing his fingers continuing to try to get through, but he does actually pierce the bamboo

The spoon would break because the force of hitting the metal would have nowhere to go, so it explodes. If force is equally distributed as seen, there would be no need for the force to move, as its spread evenly across the whole item. No need for compensation or movement of kinetic energy, at that point it's just about how fast and hard one can hit.

 

[BakiHanma18]

Oh, to further talk about the Analytical Prediction point. Here is a Low, likely middle (at most) class kid:
Can sense the opponents strength from a glance and simulate the entire fight and the time it will take to defeat them.

Kid Baki has some feats like that sprinkled around his part, though I'm still gathering his stuff

 

[Firephoenixearl]

It's not purely pain, but a hit in the nose can make your eyes tear uncontrollably. And those pain examples are pretty moot when you consider that in terms of pain a slap is >>>>>>>>>>>>>> both of them. So just cus it sounds more painful doesn't mean it is. How does Maeba even remotely have anything to do with trying to counter Kenichi's esp with Seikuken? Maeba is just against counter stances, not against, Seikuken.

Not really, he's not doing anything to the surface that normal people do not already do. 2) Which is as i said, just speed in thrust.

That's what im saying, even doing that would still break the wood and not the iron.

 

[BakiHanma18]

But his eyes weren't tearing up, he was just blinded. I don't see what slaps have to do with anything in this instance specifically. I don't believe he could tank Benda level pain even remotely, but having your skull literally opened like a cracked egg is way more painful than a hit to the bridge of the nose, so pain likely isn't what's causing the thought disruption. When using Udonde or Maeba Stance, Doppo/Yujiro can sense the Seikuuken

He's reducing the surface area of the point of contact to pierce, something human hands can't normally do. 2) And the piercing of Nukite. If it was just speed, that just would have caused the damage done to his hands to resemble a Formula 1 car driving into a concrete wall. Doppo doesn't get stopped, and he doesn't only slightly breach the bamboo. His Nukite completely pierces the bamboo

If the spoon has equally distributed force, it's not possible for it to break, as there is nowhere left for kinetic energy to build, causing a break. At that point, it's all a matter of AP to slice

 

[Firephoenixearl]

We really do not know, he closed his eyes, we couldn't tell. Ok can sense seikuken, that's like the most basic of basic abilities in Kenichi. But "sensing seikuken" and "countering seikuken" are WAY too far appart.

Not really, he's just hitting with his fingers, nothing more, nothing less. 2) Hmm, are you saying that if a normal car breaks into a wall, only 1 of them gets damage? Have you literally seen no case where the wall is broken and the car gets f-ed up in the process? Srsly?

No, it's just "spread equally" doesn't mean it can keep on tanking energy without limit, it just won't break as fast. Im saying, even if it spread equally it would still break cus the energy needed to break the metal would far exceed what the wood can tank in its entirety.

 

[BakiHanma18]

But if he had teared up, tears would've been streaming down is face or there would've at least been some indication of such like the little anime water blobs in the tear gland area of the eye. How can Kenichi get passed Maeba Stance? I'll save Udonde for when we get to Yujiro, but save for some technique from Kenichi, a frontal attack, while possible, is not recommended.

He's reducing the surface area of the point of contact. The surface area of the pad of a single fingertip is considerably smaller than a fist, a palm, the side of a hand (for a chop), etc. 2) No, I mentioned that it's fair to say the car could break through the wall, but Doppo straight pierces right through, and this is a Doppo that's still portrayed as human, not 56 God of War that can yeet the whole Maximum Tournament by himself, as evident by his yeet fingers, so the speed of his strikes is nowhere near what it is in his prime or in subsequent Baki mangas.

Not if the hand is supporting it. While this would take skill, it's not really impressive in comparison to the level of skill at play here. She can just use her arm (which is way stronger than metal as I understand it) as an extension of where the force would go, taking major stress of off the spoon

Just wonder, are these points even worth arguing? If accepted, I don't imagine they are that impressive. If they aren't, we can move on.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

How Kenichi can get past Maeba Stance? Well, many ways, one of them being simply Mubyoshi, which is made to counter exactly those kinds of abilities. And there is nothing to bypassing Maeba Stance it is just to counter countering moves. So it avoids attacking so that it doesn't get countered.

I can do that, you can do that, all humans can do that. 2) Yes the car could break through a wall, and STILL get a ton of damage. Us not knowing his exact speed at that moment doesn't make it any more of a skill feat than a speed/AP feat.

That's actually physically impossible.

Not really, just arguing aimlessly. Let's move on to the next guy. I believe now is the top 5?

 

[BakiHanma18]

1 left before top 5: Shibukawa

Lemme gather the feats. For some reason, one of the most skill characters and easily the most skilled high-tier seems to be difficult to gather feats for

 

[BakiHanma18]

To get the ball rolling,

Edit: https://youtu.be/cqf43L-1kps this spit attack to kinda dura neg

https://youtu.be/hnUeqEUGFS8 after 20 years of training, Shibukawa was already better than his master, who 6 of his disciples armed with swords thought they stood no chance against him even all at once. Shibukawa's master felt it necessary to use a weapon against him

 

[Firephoenixearl]

I already know some things Kenichi can do from Shibukawa's techniques.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

That's just knowledge and spitting water. If you know where to spit, and how to spit water, you can perform it. Nothing impressive.

That's just scaling.

 

[BakiHanma18]

That's just knowledge and spitting water. If you know where to spit, and how to spit water, you can perform it. Nothing impressive.
That's just scaling.

No, he's precisely hitting a pressure point with water in a fashion that causes the opponent to drown. Also, it's literally impossible to do anything in martial arts without knowledge of something. This is also damn near impossible irl, but maybe if you're a trained marksman with a focus nozzle power washer hose

Just cementing just how impressive Shibukawa is, I'll be discussing some of his techniques and stuff after class

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Well knowledge is not skill. If you know where to spit you can achieve the same result.

 

[00potato]

Knowing where to aim and actually aiming are pretty different. Since he did it, it is an impressive precision feat.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Impressive precision feat to aim at something 2 feet away. I mean if it's about precision I could give stuff like cutting a drop of sweat without cutting the person.

 

[BakiHanma18]

Knowledge and application is literally what martial arts is, and even besides that, saying this isn't a skill feat is basically saying pressure point feats aren't skill feats when both the main thread and posts on this thread outline very differently. Also, the distance is a minor fact when we consider he's hitting a pressure point from a few feet away with a swig of water from a bottle with the precision to hit it despite the point looking to be smaller than a nickel and with enough pressure to actually activate the point

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Knowledge and application is martial arts but the application part is skill. Otherwise any omniscient would be the most skilled.

The pressure is not skill.

The spitting is average human skill.

Aiming with your mouth from that distance is really not more impressive than everything we've discussed up till now.

 

[BakiHanma18]

Knowledge and application is martial arts but the application part is skill. Otherwise any omniscient would be the most skilled.
The pressure is not skill.

The spitting is average human skill.

Aiming with your mouth from that distance is really not more impressive than everything we've discussed up till now.

It's only a feat because he's applying something, pressure points

Focusing the water into a point small enough to hit a nickel-sized target from feet away and actually landing the hit are skill feats.

Hes literally activating a pressure point by spitting water from a small distance away

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Really ain't that small of a target and not that small of a projectile. If you really consider this more impressive than literally everything we've discussed to this point, don't talk to me about skill ever again.

Like dude you lack the sense of what is impressive. Are you seriously incapable of spitting into someone's eye from that distance?

 

[BakiHanma18]

Really ain't that small of a target and not that small of a projectile. If you really consider this more impressive than literally everything we've discussed to this point, don't talk to me about skill ever again.
Like dude you lack the sense of what is impressive. Are you seriously incapable of spitting into someone's eye from that distance?

Why do you keep downplaying every skill feat? Is there a single person in Kenichi that can hit a pressure point and cause someone to drown on their own tears without even touching them?

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Im not downplaying them, im just not overplaying them. The effect achieved has nothing to do with skill, the "skill part" is literally just spitting at him with precision. Which ain't that impressive, but here is Shigure knocking ppl down by spitting needles at them and even breaking glass with the same needless .

 

[BakiHanma18]

Im not downplaying them, im just not overplaying them. The effect achieved has nothing to do with skill, the "skill part" is literally just spitting at him with precision. Which ain't that impressive, but here is Shigure knocking ppl down by spitting needles at them and even breaking glass with the same needless .

Regardless of the affect achieved (Jack drowning in his own tears), he's still hitting a pressure point and rupturing Jack's tear sack without even touching him. He's literally hitting a pressure point with his spit. I'd say that's pretty damn impressive. Shigure knocking people down by spitting needles at them is similar to this feat, but I'd say this one is better. Shibukawa isn't just knocking Jack over with AP, he's hitting a pressure point even shown in Motobe's explanation to be smaller than a human pupil, and he's using just spit as opposed to a sharp, solid needle

That being said, discussion of Aiki should begin.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Ok but she's knocking people out by hitting pressure points with needless. Also the needles have much smaller area than a spit, so it is harder. As for the pressure point, it's literally just managing to hit with precision and when it comes to precision, you don't get much better than Shigure who could outdo people who could arrow helicopters miles away. But anyway, a useless point, neither of these is anything immensly impressive for the level of skill we're currently talking so let's just go for Aiki.

 

[BakiHanma18]

What does Kenichiverse have to compare to Aiki?

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Explain what Aiki is first. But i guess it could be something like Ki by kenichi verse. If there is not, i guess we should just go by feats (Example: Can perform this. Regardless of whether he uses Aiki or another medium).

 

[BakiHanma18]

I'll look for better feats, as the ones I have right now are kinda meh, but this is what Aiki does in Baki

"Aiki is a Japanese martial arts principle or tactic in which the defender blends (without clashing) with the attacker, then goes on to dominate the assailant through the strength of their application of internal dynamics or Ki energy to affect techniques.

Blending with an attacker's movements allows the Aiki practitioner to control the actions of the attacker with minimal effort. One applies Aiki by understanding the rhythm and intent of the attacker to find the optimal position and timing to apply a counter-technique."

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Thay actually seems similar to what kenichi does with rysui seikuken. Dominate the opponent with minimal effort.

Understanding the rythym is like mid class dis

 

[BakiHanma18]

Thay actually seems similar to what kenichi does with rysui seikuken. Dominate the opponent with minimal effort.
Understanding the rythym is like mid class dis

I can post some fights with context of strength difference so you can get a better idea beyond just words on a post

Would Doppo's "turning off rhythm" be an impressive feat? With the Bodhisatva Fist?

 

[Firephoenixearl]

I mean, not using strength is not that impressive. Mikumi and her disciple use 0 strength and still trash the f outta Supermasters.

Mid Class Kenichi does that same thing with Mubyoshi.

 

[BakiHanma18]

I mean, not using strength is not that impressive. Mikumi and her disciple use 0 strength and still trash the f outta Supermasters.
Mid Class Kenichi does that same thing with Mubyoshi.

that sounds like they scale directly above Supermasters



https://youtu.be/wQEE24dD6-M

(Also, I forgot to mention earlier, but KG asked me earlier to mention the Bodhisattva Fist, which Doppo uses and explains in this video, as it not only a perfect Seiken in every way, but it also apparently allows the user to silence their mind according to Shibukawa)

https://youtu.be/sCasWIpiGUA

(This despite Yujiro stating to actually care about taking a hit from Oliva head on and this same Shibukawa almost getting oneshot by post death Doppo)

https://youtu.be/3gH-ltqdTNo

(Aiki allows the physically nominal Shibukawa to clash the physically strongest fighter in the tourney Jack)

https://youtu.be/ltRWc61wgzo

(All of this)

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Mikumi does scale directly above supermasters. She's an Advanced Grand Master. (obviously not her disciple doe)

Silencing your mind is the basic condition for Seikuken. As for the rest pretty sure Mubyoshi can outdo.

On a sidenote Yujiro stating that about Oliva seems like plain PIS, considering Yujiro trashes Oliva casually. But anyway, that's just a dislocation feat, that's not really showing AP. Lugh dislocated Takedea's arm too. This is from a grab, Lugh's was from a hit, comparable enough.

Wat? He doesn't really clash, he just uses throws and stuff. But Mikumi's disciple does the same. She uses 0 strength and throws around dojo owners like nothing. Same for Mikumi who trashes Supermasters.

All of that, ok let's go 1 by 1:

• Throws. I already pointed that out both Mikumi and her disciple can do that.

• Sitting technique. Kenichi does that very same technique. Used Idori , which has no openings and can completely nullify any attack even if it is weapon based.

 

[BakiHanma18]

So are we to say Shibukawa is a higher up Supermaster or around that area? That would also work with general combat skill, as Katsumi and Retsu topped out at around High Disciple iirc and Katsumi can stomp low High Disciple Doyle effortlessly, Retsu's skill is to Katsumi's what Goku is to Vegeta, Doppo's skill makes Retsu fanboy and Doppo is a 9th Dan Karate grandmaster to Katsumi's 3rd Dan Karate mastery, and Shibukawa's skill barely edges out over Doppo.

Okay

Oliva is roughly comparable to both Baki and Hanayama in SoO, both of which could at least damage a casual Yujiro, so the AP gap even in verse is Oliva being able to damage a human nuke to Shibukawa almost getting oneshot by someone who is no longer even able to oneshot a tiger

He can clash, he just relies on a Jiu Jitsu Aikido mix in seasons 1 and 2. Shibukawa also uses his enemy's strength against them if that helps any ( stronger the opponent, the easier it is to win).

So, roughly Supermaster level? Or higher, being comparable to at least the disciple that trashed them

 

[Firephoenixearl]

What? Hell no lol. We're still not in the master class here, let alone Advanced Grand Master. As i said her disciple (middle to high class disciple likely) can do the same.

Ok but dislocating doesn't really require anything that special. Besides as i said, Mikumi's disciple does that.

He doesn't really clash doe. He just mostly uses throws, dislocations and reflection. But never clash, at least it wouldn't fit the definition for the "clash".

No, disciple class. High class disciple class.

 

[BakiHanma18]

That scaling makes 0 sense. A Disciple class trashes Supermasters, so would that mean that that Disciple is more skilled than a Supermaster?

Theres another instance to where Shibukawa forces Oliva to his knees with just a casual handshake as well

He ca clash, he just relies on a Jiu Jitsu Aikido mix in seasons 1 and 2. Shibukawa also uses his enemy's strength against them if that helps any ( stronger the opponent, the easier it is to win). It's also literally described as clashing and it's shown to clash and reflect in the diagram

Im not sure about that. Doyle was like low High Disciple, and Katsumi skill stomps him, Katsumi who is outskilled by Retsu who is massively outskilled by Doppo who is outskilled by Shibukawa.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

No, the disciple trashes other disciple classes. Mikumi trashes supermasters. But they do essentially the same thing. Mikumi just has a ton more....hax up her sleeve.

Yeah that part is just twisting his hands in ways to put him on the ground. Still something that Akido does. Anyway for both this and the point below just watch this. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KN1aIhdeihM (same for the dislocation we talked about earlier).

Scaling isn't gonna get you anywhere in HCD doe (high class disciple). You have no idea where it starts and where it ends in terms of people (it's literally like chapter 60 to chapter 580, it's just chock full of HCD who all stomp each-other in terms of skill). And besides to even get to the weakest Master Class you need to be able to take on 1 Mid Class Disciple, 5 Very High Class Disciples and 2 expert class people all at the same time and be able to fodderize them in seconds.

 

[BakiHanma18]

Yes, because Shibukawa uses Aikido, Jiu Jitsu, and Judo.

Not only is the guy Akisame fodderizes an absolute nobody, but he still need to grab the sewer grate with his toes to keep his footing. Shibukawa, one of the physically weakest characters in the series, can do this to someone comparable to a walking nuclear bomb. He doesn't need to grab anything, and he physically overpowers someone hundreds of thousands of times stronger. There's also this at 16:55, showing Shibukawa bullying Musashi's strength, and right now in the manga, Shibukawa is rag dolling someone 6x his size in weight and height

There aren't very many instances of multiple people fighting someone else at once, but Shibukawa's master was so skilled in Aikido, 6+ of his students, all of which skill stomp people that would be Mid class by our discussion such as Atlas, Yuri, Sonada, etc, were all armed with weapons and still gave up without even attempting to fight the master out of fear of his prowess in Aikido. This same master almost immediately resorted to using a weapon to fight Shibukawa even at the age of ~30, meaning compared to his 70-80 year old self, even that Shibukawa gets absolutely smashed in terms of skill. Another pretty good statement is that Musashi compares Retsu to the Battle of Sekigahara, meaning just Retsu by himself is already superior to 2 armies worth of men

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Yeah what about it?

It was just a case of showing the "dislocation feat" too. But i can give you more, sure:

Here is Kushinada's disciple fodderizing grown up dojo masters in the same way Shibukawa does.

And everything she does is as i stated 0 strength. Just pure skill.

As for that, you competely missed the point. Shibukawa would literally need to fight everyone we've mentioned to this point, at the same time, and those people having a practically non existent chance of winning. Which we both know ain't true as just doppo alone was enough to give him a run for his money.

 

[BakiHanma18]

You mentioned that it is "still something that Aikido does". I was just agreeing since Aikido is one of his main styles

What's the strength difference between them normally? It may be done with 0 strength, but the gap in strength may be much greater between someone that can harm Yujiro and someone that's portrayed as the second physically weakest relevant character in the series

Thats literally only because Doppo had a technique that counters Aiki. Aiki works on sensing the intent and rhythm of the opponent, Doppo used an attack that allowed him to turn that off. Without that ability, Shibukawa alone could take out everyone from Doyle to Doppo, definitely not with them having no chance of winning, but none of them would actually be able to hit him, only Doppo and possibly Retsu would be able to pressure him

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Oh, ok.

What's the point if it uses 0 strength?

I know you still missed the point doe. These guys will absolutely trash Shibukawa together, Yanagi and Doppo both won, retsu would put up a fair fight. Shibukawa ain't taking them all at the same time.

 

[BakiHanma18]

Oh, ok.
What's the point if it uses 0 strength?

I know you still missed the point doe. These guys will absolutely trash Shibukawa together, Yanagi and Doppo both won, retsu would put up a fair fight. Shibukawa ain't taking them all at the same time.

Because using 0 strength vs someone that's like average human level isn't as impressive as using little strength against essentially a human nuclear bomb

No, Yanagi got trashed by a casual Shibukawa and was only able to do anything by cheating, not skill. Doppo has an attack that counters Aiki, without Bodhisattva Fist, even with Doppo's over 50 years of Karate skill and training, he wouldn't have been able to even tag him, and Retsu likely would actually be able to land a hit. All 4 of them together still wouldn't make a difference if, with skill alone, none of them could even tag him