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Skill Debate: Yujiro vs Hayato

Firephoenixearl said:
No, no, no, no. You're not outskilling "someone" you're outskilling an actual animal. A freaking animal. So your point is "Doppo is more skilled than an animal". Sure, if you think that's impressive for a dude who's like...beyond karate masters in skill.
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Having the skill to fight a tiger is very good. Remember, tigers aren't like your average human. Even if you and him are the same physically, a tiger has sharp claws and is way more offensive than a human. So yeah, that's a good skill feat. "Outskilling" someone is not like winning against them in a game of chess.
 
Tiger's are also wild animals that have no sense of strategy or tactics. They aren't wolves where lots of communications is done and split second strategies are made, so I disagree with Doppo killing a tiger being an impressive skill feat, especially since he himself is much stronger than said tiger.
 
Oh, so killing a pack of wolves is a good skill feat? Yuri did it while being comparable in AP to them. 13yo Baki was able to defeat any animal on Earth, too. And Doppo dwarfs both in skill.


Anyways, we should be focusing on "top 2" skill feats, not on those small feats
 
Except that is not the case. Doppo knew of the stance before-hand, and same for Motobe who even explained what the stance did. It being old, doesn't mean no one's heard of it.

I never said it had. But that's really not the case. Udonde is specifically to counter stuff thrown at you. It is not for attacking, what Doppo did was just stay calm until Yujiro couldn't take it anymore and just yeeted the first attack. Udonde is not an attacking stance, so it is not udonde once it starts attacking. It is just being patient.

Feel very iffy. Since i do disagree with a lot of things we treat as "speed amps" from Bakiverse. Is there any second case where this move is used? (This isn't really for the debate anymore cus as i've said Miu boosts her reaction time 10x so it doesn't matter, im just arguing the feat for being the feat it is).

Telegraphs unnoticable movements? you never posted scan of this, how would i know? Can you give a scan, i feel like i need context here.

Yet that attack Yuu did wasn't No Motion, it was a basic kick, that Doppo stopped. And Yujiro ******** on Doppo in skill just means he's above, without feats of his own it's unquantifiable. That's why scaling would be best to be skipped in these things.

A good headbutt achieves the same effect, it not only hurts a lot but in the nose area it can cause your eyes to start to tear unwillingly. So it is the same. As for the rest, again: "Can't think" vs "Completely unable to take action". One just creates "one" oppening whereas the other is a winning move. As for the "A lot of martial arts require AP" yes, but AP is meaningless here. We're not here to debate the martial arts abilities that are AP based, we're here to debate the ones that are "skill" based.

Focusing all your fingers in 1 toe is something even normal dudes can do. It still doesn't feel like a knife nor can it pierce people. Also you're legit arguing putting your toes well enough is like....top 2 level of skill....

Ok

Yes, that's why i said it is also knowledge of the human anatomy.

Geez, ok show me where it is stated it is skill and where's the skill in that?. I really don't wanna go down this path though. And yes "first tries" before his fingers started to grow stronger and he could just pierce that shit normally.

Yes, he was hitting air while Dorian wasn't attacking. Meaning, he really wasn't predicting what Dorian would do correctly. And fooling the 5 senses is just well...not all that impressive considering the technique only works if you're delusional. About the rest, how many senses are still active is pretty much useless when, as i said, Odin was specifically only using prediction. His hearing, smelll, etc etc, were not good enough to keep up a fight with anyone. It is just his prediction. But here is Takeda using a move that fools all 5 senses and Lugh developing a counter to it in moments.

I mean here is siegfried catching tons arrows with his bare hands.

Yeah, that gets completely negged by the point that the same guy breaks his hand on a bambu stick. That's why we don't use VSBW stats for this. And we've talked about this before, Goku would be number 1 for not absolutely atomizing people by existing.

People can tell people's bloodlust passively in kenichi. Most of the rest is smell, Apachai could smell Kenich from cities away and track him. Whereas Akisame Could tell when was the last time a sword sliced through a human just from looking at it. Though still, how is that more impressive than Tirawit's ability to literally judge the class of someone's family, how many siblings they had etc etc.

The point is, it's unknown "how" he got in. But ok.

Oh well...he still has other senses to use and like...close his eyes. On top of even assuming he'd be able to land that hit. Also i'll choose middle ground and say Odin who's not blind but still doesn't use eyes

Yes, but like...it is better than any pressure point or healing feat you'll find. Though later on we have supermasters being able to revive people with a survival knife and some alcohol.

Prince of counters already talked about this. But the point is, he is more skilled than an animal. It really isn't impressive, let alone top 2.
 
The Prince of Counters said:
Tiger's are also wild animals that have no sense of strategy or tactics. They aren't wolves where lots of communications is done and split second strategies are made, so I disagree with Doppo killing a tiger being an impressive skill feat, especially since he himself is much stronger than said tiger.
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But Doppo isn't, that's why it's a skill feat. It's said throughout roughly 70% of that entire chapter that they are physically equals
 
But it's literally a secret martial art passed down to the eldest son of an ancient family. Regardless, recognizing a martial art without a stance at a glance is a skill feat, and a good one

Fair enough, but just keep in mind that the Maeba Stance has a Seikuuken as well, I just don't know about it having 0 blind spots like Udonde (due to the stance, I'd be tempted to say it only defends front, but that's just my headcanon)

Unfortunately, no. Yujiro never gets outsped, and Doppo is the only other person that is shown to be able to use it, and since his eye gets yeeted, he can't use it anymore

I mentioned it earlier, but I'll link it so you can see what exactly I mean. I actually just found out Yuu is an anime only character, so I'll link the fight where he uses it https://youtu.be/gKD9Fxa09zs

"No-Motion Jump is a specific fighting move where the user propels himself into the air with telegraphing unnoticeable movement."

Skipping scaling then

But tearing up is just obscuring vision, and that's only if your lucky or skilled with headbutts (placing the shot at just the right spot to make eyes water). This is a skill that actually blinds the opponent, no sight, and it's guaranteed to work barring any counters from the opponent. Right, but that's like comparing a tractor to a Lamborghini: Tiger Mouth Fist, the tractor here, may not be as fast, speed being a KO, but that's because that's not what it's supposed to do. Sure a KO is objectively a better result than an opening, I will concede that point, but TMF has better coverage and does well at what it's intended to do. If, by some means, brain stuff in general doesn't work, Doppo could still blind his opponent, where as the signal disruption move is a one-trick pony. And martial arts in general cannot be separated from AP entirely, everything done in the act of martial arts either requires AP or speed or both unless specifically outlined that it doesn't. The skill aspect just extends to finer details, like good footwork and precision and such

No, look, the reason it's described as being as sharp as a knife is, yes, due in part to force, but think of the tip of a knife. It's a sharp, small focused area, right? Now think of a toe, or hell, even a toe bone. While toe bones are close, neither fit the bill of the sharpness of a knife, and if it really was his toe bone, it's likely the muscle and skin on his bone would have been damage with the bone jabbing Yuu through Doppo's flesh. The reason why it's a skill feat is because he focuses all of his force into and incredibly small area and strikes with a small point pushing through, like a knife.

Try to think of it in a different fashion: Doppo has no medical knowledge that we are aware of and everything he knows of anatomy is implied to be through martial arts and fighting. He is using a martial arts skill or technique to do something like undo the suturing of the skull, a procedure that would take even the best of doctors tools and aides to do that finely. Doppo can casually do it with his bare hands because of his martial arts

Think of it like the Toe Knife deal (seeing as both allow a human to replicate knife-like feats with limbs). When his fingers aren't smashed to bits, aka him at any point in Baki aside from flashbacks, he's able to focus the AP of what would be the total surface area of his fist into one point, one point on one finger in someone like Yujiro's instance. Normal human hands aren't capable of damage things in this way, hands are only able to produce blunt damage normally. As for where it says it, I'm not sure it ever specifically outlines it as such (though in its defense, techniques in general are rarely ever outlined to only be skill as I mentioned earlier), but the wiki had this to say about it: "The fighter uses his hand (excluding their thumbs) which the user then thrust into the opponent's body like a spear."

Remember: he technically WAS predicting Dorian the whole time, all of Dorian's fighting move to be specific. On the one hand, since he was fighting an illusion, he wasn't predicting Dorian's non-combat moves, but speaking only in a combat applicable sense of skill, Dorian even attacked him from the opposite direction as the illusion was getting beat up, and Doppo still predicted and blocked the punch without even turning around. Hypnotizing all 5 senses is impressive regardless, but fighting with all 5 senses is not only even more impressive, but that's the feat, not the hypnosis itself. One doesn't need to be delusional, they just need to desire to win. Yes, but if Odin hears the opponent to his left, he can build a prediction based on his position or based on the soaring noise of the wind with each punch and kick. He may have been only using prediction, but those were predictions he could base on what he was smelling, hearing, feeling, and possibly even tasting. Doppo was actively being fed not no information for all 5 senses, but incorrect information for all 5 senses. Lugh's feat is a good counter feat, but not an analysis feat as I understand it

Right, but those arrows can only travel as fast as they are set into motion, as well as slowing down as they travel. Doppo is catching a blade moving at the same speed as someone comparable (Dorian's shoe) and he catches the actual blade with no damage

That's not the same thing though. Breaking your hands on bamboo is durability, what's being done to the bottles is skill. Only destroying a portion of the bottle and not even setting it into motion even with a powerful strike

Those are more impressive than Doppo's feat, I will agree. Tirawit just did the same as Doppo, no? I'm not sure about the siblings, but Doppo tells by his smell and small details of his appearance that he's low class or criminal

But he did, and that's impressive considering the local. It's also heavily implied he sneaked in, or else why hide in the Dino?

As you can figure, the move won't work on those who don't even use their eyes, but it does counter a blind fighter countering 1/2 of Tiger Mouth Fist or Invisible Squash

It is, but it's fictional. Something skillful in fiction with pressure points that's just an exaggeration of real life is like Retsu being able to perfectly hit any pressure points with his toes
 
It's not just "a" martial art without a stance, Doppo outright says that way of walking isn't regular. It has something that make it different.

Yeah ok, Seikuken is not really anything impressive by baki standards once you get to High Class Disciples.

Definitely not good enough for a speed amp then. He was getting barrage of attacks from different directions. It could have just been hard to block them all due to coming from different sides, so once he used Sangan he could do that, so it was easier to block.

Ok, i know that, i've watched the entire anime, but what's the telegraph stuff about? Also how is he anime only if you gave scan of doppo beating him in the manga? Also i missed the scene where it says "telegraphs unnoticable movements" part.

So you're conceding on the KO being better? Let's move on then. About martial arts and AP/Speed, yes, that is true, but not everything is that. Prediction, analysis etc etc have nothing to do with those 2 for example. And stuff that is mostly based on AP has has very weak parts of skill really isn't impressive. As for this case for example, why is that impressive? Why can't i just do the same? It's just putting your hand in a certain position and attacking.

Ok but ugh...sirakosky can literally laugh at that feat, and we decided on him to like mid class. Why even bother arguing? It's just keeping your toes together, im pretty sure 3/4 of any circus dude or a ballerina can replicate that feat and better.

"we don't know of" is different from "doesn't have". He obviously has knowledge of the human anatomy to even think of doing that feat, let alone perform it. It is just knowledge. As for the doctors, really not, all doctors can perform it, but they run into other troubles like the fact that they gotta cut, being careful not to cut any important stuff etc etc. If i undo the skull structure of a dude by smashing his head into concrete doesn't mean im more skilled than the doctor, cus im just doing it without caring what happens, a doctor has to make sure you come out safe and sound.

Yes, it is thrust into the opponent. It has nothing to do with "sharpness" a hand is a hand, he's just slamming it with so much force it is piercing through. Do you think a bullet the size of your finger wouldn't pierce you?

Odin actually didn't use any senses. He had already predicted the "rythym" of Kenichi's attacks, so he didn't even need to see anymore. If he still needed his senses he wouldn't have taken of his glasses. It's specifically because he knew everything that would come, that he fought Kenichi. Both are doing the same thing, "predicting the opponent", but doppo is predicting an opponent with less accuracy (odin never misses a hit on someone whose rythym he's understood) and with less experience of the person (1 hit in case of Shigure who he had never even met, whereas that was Doppo's 2nd fight and the 2nd time it was by the end of the fight that this kicked in). Besides, even then, Kenichi can just destroy that, by changing his rythym (which is literally like becoming someone else), and that would completely neg Doppo's prediction.

Are you seriously saying he was faster than the arrows? It's like saying, catching a knife from me, is easier than catching me throwing a rock at my max strength. Just for context, a rock can be thrown by upwards of 80mph by a human where as the human fists usually cap at 20m/h. That's over 4 times the speed.

Not setting it in motion. These guys can actually do this without causing even a mm of movement.

This is tirawit's analysis agai . And he didn't really do the same thing, Tirawit knew the class (likely economic level) of his family, the fact that he had no siblings, that he would do anything for power, that he was stupid and that he liked to bully the weak, by meeting him.

Yeah, but whether he just Trojan's Horse'd himself there, or whether he was allowed to go in and just wanted to hide from specific people, etc etc are all unknown. But supermasters still outdo any stealth feat in the series.

Still gets countered within High Class Disciple and can be outdone within high class disciple. Though Kenichi can literally deal with pressure points that kill on a cellular level, that level of pressure points sure as hell ain't working on him. Then later on if we get to supermasters we'll go over the fact that they render pressure points useless by tightening muscles. Or peope who poke you and render your limbs useless (this 2nd one is just H disciple class btw).

It is just pressure points, but going on the level of killing the cells instead of just stopping the movement of the muscles or stuff like that. I guess just think of cutting atoms with a sword, being exaggerated af but still not purely fictional.
 
I think i forgot to mention some people in Baki can instantly know your martial art/style/etc only by looking at you with no previous knowledge whatsoever
 
KGiffoni said:
I think i forgot to mention some people in Baki can instantly know your martial art/style/etc only by looking at you with no previous knowledge whatsoever
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They can. Well supermasters in Kenichi can realize the "original martial art" (rumored to be the very first form of martial art), just from a second hand description of Kenichi. So yeah it does, im just trying to squeze everything within the high class disciples so that i don't end up on supermasters, but keep going back to High Class Disciple feats.
 
What he's recognizing is Udonde. That being said, we are outright told by Motobe that the point of the technique is that it has no stance, which baits people into attacking only to be countered. I genuinely don't know what Doppo's seeing, but to recognize that a technique without a stance is "off" based on sight alone would be an analytical skill feat

Doppo's Seikuuken has no proof of being as impressive as Udonde with its 0 blind spots, but considering the combat application of Udonde, I dunno, I think it's pretty impressive in Baki terms

But we visually see that that is not the case. All of Yujiro's attacks are coming from the same general area, and Doppo is skilled enough to clash Katsumi's Mach Punch stance, which simultaneously covers highs, mids, and lows. What we see is Doppo not being fast enough to do anything, be it dodge, block each hit, or counter. Then Sangan is used and he can not only see from many directions, but is able to individually block and parry each hit

I'm so dumb, I forgot I sent manga panels of Yuu earlier The Baki wiki doesn't list a manga debut and I completely forgot about the links from earlier, my bad. That said, the Baki wiki says it's quoting the manga with the description of "telegraphing unnoticeable movements", but I can't find it. I'll keep looking and get back to you

No, I am not conceding at all, I'm saying it's an unfair comparison. They aren't used with the same intention or purpose, so what's the point in comparing them? As far as skill, yes, you could, that's the point of the skill thread as was discussed: skill feats that are insanely exaggerated version of something real. You can totally try to do Nukite, hell, people use it irl all the time in Karate. That said, to be able to pierce through bound bamboo is damn near impossible. Anyone could punch bound bamboo, maybe even break it if you're strong enough, but to pierce it like a sword with your bare hands via the use of a martial arts technique? Sounds like skill to me

Actually no, Sikorsky is not capable of this feat, as Sikorsky uses finger strength to achieve similar results, whereas this is a skill feat. And no, it's not keeping your toes together, as I've explained, it's keeping your toes together and focusing the entirety of your AP from a kick to one extremely small area and piercing.

Right, knowledge of a martial arts technique that can undue the suturing of someone's skull, a skill or technique that can replicate something a doctor can only do with tools. And no, to specifically undo the suturing of the skull without damaging anything else on the skull like Doppo did by smashing someone's head on the concrete is 100% impossible, and to fix it, the doctor (even disregarding the patient's life) would still need things like needles and thread or bone grafting tech or whatever have you.

It has everything to do with sharpness, that's the point of the move. The person makes their hand replicate a spear. Obviously, a spear requires AP to pierce someone's flesh, but the AP required for a spear is less than the AP require than for a human hand. Doppo is able to pierce through bound bamboo despite it clearly destroying his fingers

How did Odin get Kenichi's rhythm? Taking off glasses only obscures 1 sense, sight, and it doesn't even take it away. He is 100% predicting all of Doppo's attacks. Like I said: Doppo is hypnotized, so he's being actively fed incorrect information by his senses, Odin is just obscuring 1 sense, seeing next to nothing, but the information he's predicting is still correct. How would Kenichi changing his rhythm help? Doppo again has dealt with actively being fed incorrect information by hypnosis. Kenichi changing his rhythm still wouldn't be the same as Doppo's senses perceiving the world incorrectly.

False equivalency. I don't know how fast Sieg is, whereas Dorian has been shown to be able to outrun a point-blank explosion and chip a tunnel piece by piece with his hands and feet in 1 night. Dorian could be insanely faster than his verse's arrows or rocks or whatever projectile, whereas Sieg could insanely faster than his verse's arrows as well, but there's no guarantee that the arrows are being shot under the same conditions.

If we are in agreement that it's a skill feat, Doppo and Katsumi can do that, but to something that weights much less and can take pieces off without so much as cracking anything they didn't hit. That's like doing that punching bag feat, but with a smaller punching bag made of glass, blowing a whole in the middle and not shattering the bag or even cracking it. It would be as though the punch cut a laser hole into it.

No siblings, and possibly bullying the weak specifically are the only 2 of those that make it better than Doppo's

How is that possible? How is it, even exaggerating what real life pressure points do, possible to either cause or resist cellular death via ki manipulation? That's not an exaggeration, that's just outright making a hax from a normal martial art. Where would be the point in which the exaggeration lies? Now Supermasters negging pressure points is a good example. I don't know for sure, but I'm fairly sure that tightening muscles doesn't neg pressure points, but because of how real life pressure points work, it's believable to think that muscle tightening could in theory neg pressure points

That's just it, cutting atoms through any other means than chemical reaction is physically impossible swords are made of atoms, so it would be basically asking several atoms to target and cut another atom. Even one atom cutting another atom is impossible. Same with causing cellular death with pressure points. It can't be logically explained or reasoned, even using real life pressure points as a base for logic.
 
He still mostly recognized the fact that "the way of walking isn't normal". Just that fact alone says there are a few things that make it different.

Oh derp. I mean to say "it's not impressive by Kenichi standards". Since high class begin with seikuken.

Yet it has nothing to do with a speed amp. We have nothing to say he was being "blitzed". We just see him get hit by a barrage of attacks, nothing to say he lacked the speed to deal with them. Anyway enough of this, probs something for a CRT eventually.

Ok.

It's literally doing a much better version of what Doppo did to a far superior opponent. In terms of skill it's FAR above. It may be a bit different, but it's far less impressive.

It's never said to be a skill feat. It's just keeping your toes together, that's literally any capable human level of skill. About focusing your AP, if you focus your toes that's what's gonna happen, it can't happen any other way cus that's what's hitting.

Knowledge of human anatomy. Give me where it says "it's skill" if you want to argue smashing fingers into skull is that impressive. Im tired of this.

Yes, as i said, a bullet the size of your finger will still pierce you. Doesn't mean the gun gives the bullet "skill to pierce" it just gives speed.

Cus what Doppo is doing is "predicting based on who Dorian is/how he would move". Kenichi changing is "rythym" is literally "becoming someone else". He isn't being fed wrong info, he's being fed what his mind think is happening. He's not being fed anything. Changing who you are like Kenichi does means literally "you don't know who you're even fighting or what that person would do in certain cases". As for Odin, you still miss the point, his other senses are useless, his hearing, smell, etc etc, aren't good to the point of being in a fight. It's like saying "for a regular human whether you take away his sight or take away his hearing and smell too, it's gonna help him much against dodging a barrage of punches from someone else". It really doesn't make a difference cus those other senses can't do anything to help against that attack. And Odin still did it in FAR less time. He started predicting Kenichi with FAR less info.

They're usually assumed to be similar speed as the user otherwise why use them? It's like saying "invisible squash could be a thousand times slower than Retsu himself". We don't know how fast it is sure, but we can at "LEAST" assume as fast as Retsu.

Give me the feat. And no i don't agree it is a skill feat, cutting glass with your hand, but eh im tired.

Only those 2? Doppo can find the social class of someone's family from meeting them?

Can render pressure point attacks useless by tightening his muscles. As for the rest of the pressure points, believable or not, it's >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> anything Baki has done with pressure points.

We do accept cutting atoms, it's just one of those things that....work. It's far too common, and it's usually "skill based".
 
Right, Doppo notices something off about a technique with no stance just by looking, that's the feat

Ahhh okay, I have some questions about Udonde, but for now, I'm content with Maeba Stance being beginning High Class

He goes from visibly not being able to do anything because he's being overwhelmed to parrying each individual strike. To do this would require someone to have changed in speed, which would be Doppo upon the use of Sangan

It's not "a bit different", it's completely different things. It's like saying "I played soccer and you walked to the Walmart down the street. I made a goal and you got where you were going, and but making a goal is more impressive and because you use your legs for both, they can be compared".

It's never not said to be a skill feat, and it's very clearly shown to be a skill feat (it's also a skill feat for literally all the reasons I listed). Name one human that can kick so precisely, their toe is compared to a knife. And no, you can kick someone with your toes as a lead and not be even remotely comparable to the sharpness of a knife, that's actually something nearly anyone could do

Skill. First off, knowledge and application of anatomy to this level is skill, and Doppo gained this knowledge and application through martial arts training and development/learning this technique. Downplay of "smashing your fingers" aside, technique is literally defined as "skill or ability in a particular field" so...

False equivalency. A bullet is not a hand. Bullets are specifically shaped to cause piercing damage. Doppo is shaping his hand to pierce and focusing to a point well enough to pierce bound bamboo. Raw AP would just let you break it, human hands are not build or designed in any fashion to pierce things

As we can both see, "what his mind thinks is happening" is literally wrong information, the whole reason he was hitting air. He saw, smelled, and heard Dorian there, and he felt his flesh and bones when he struck air. Even if Odin was in a sensory deprivation tank, he would still be in a more advantageous position than Doppo because he's not experiencing anything sensory wise. What Doppo's senses are experiencing is not real, IE incorrect sensory information relay.

No, there could be any reason to use the arrows: range advantage, the piercing does better damage because of minor dura neg, or they could be faster. Off the top of my head, that's 3 different reasons and any combination of said 3.

I already linked both Doppo and Katsumi's feats https://imgur.com/a/Ix3pf https://imgur.com/a/sJE5m

No, as I mentioned earlier, he easily spotted the social class of the man himself

The negging pressure points feat can be used, the fictional pressure points abilities can't be used

How, even in an exaggerated sense, would that work? It's commonality is irrelevant
 
The walking is unnatural as stated by him.

Ok

Not really, there was never implied or stated any speed difference or problem between the 2. Again, for a CRT.

One is FAR harder, requires FAR less AP, and has FAR more uses as well as being FAR more effective. One just hurts to the point of not being able to think, the other completely shuts down the brain. How you argue the most nonsensical feats is beyond me. Like you bring up good points when it comes to skill debates sometimes, but other times you bring up feats like these, that just make me want to question why i brought skill debates into existence to begin with. You really need to tell the difference and how impressive something is.

Heh? Goku blew up a planet and it was "never" not said not to be a skill feat. So 5-B Skill FRA. As for the rest, he's not doing anything to his fingers, he's just piercing. Stuff, Kenichi still cut a dude with his bare hands and unlike Doppo that dude was equal to him if not stronger.

Knowledge is not skill. Application of knowledge is not skill. It's still just knowledge. Definition of technique? Yes, but definitions don't always say whether it's skill or not, that's why there are things called "AP based technique". Here is a dude whose "techniques" literally include getting traits of animals. It being called "technique" doesn't mean it's always skill.

As i said, a bullet "the size of your hand" can pierce. Actually try this, get a bullet since it's "specifically designed to pierce" and try to make a true hole (like a hole a gun would leave) by smashing it on glass or wood, see if it works. Then do the same using a gun. Then tell me whether or not both pierce or both break, or if it's a different result. Dude it's literally physics, things will not break if the time of contact is too small which is why a throwing a bullet breaks a window, but shooting it pierces it instead. How sharp it is only helps, but speed is a major factor, and since well...you can't sharpen your fingers, it is just speed.

The reason he was hitting air is cus that's what he thought "would happen as the fight went on". Not being fed wrong info, it's just the mind thinking what it wants to think. As for Odin, sure he'd have an however small advantage, but take into account how much it took Doppo to achieve the same effect vs Odin's 1 hit and you see how massive the difference in prediction is here. And still Kenichi hard negs it.

Range advantage is useless if it's slower. Would you go in a fight using snails that are trained to fight? No cus they're so slow they'd never acomplish anything. Piercing damage...well...literally any sharp weapon ever can replicate that.

Oh you meant those? You're seriously comparing causing explosions without even moving a sandbag to cutting bottles which is as i've said just speed and AP? (Physics)

I fail to find that in his words, then again, it is not as pure of a form as Tirawit's due to almost all of them being pure smell. The body odor, the smell of metal, ink etc. The only think that isn't senses is just the fact that he guessed the size of the knife from the way he walked.

I never inteded to use it, i am just against the idea that doing a worse version of this still gets argued as impressive by dismissing this feat. It's like saying "Cutting a drop of sweat is impressive because cutting with atomic precision is not believable' ok, it is not, but doesn't mean it isn't just a straight up better version of whatever you're discussing.
 
So that would be a feat for Doppo, as he's noticed something strange about the walk with no stance

We already CRT'd it recently and Prom, Amlad, KG, and a few others all agreed when the changes were made

A sledgehammer and a normal hammer can both smash things. A sledgehammer smashes better, but a normal hammer is used for things like carpentry and things other than smashing. Apples to oranges.

Hence why the "it was never stated to be skill" argument isn't a good one. Actually, as we see, the bound bamboo is shattering his fingers as he pierced it, so if Kenichi can cut someone equal if not stronger, the two feats are comparable, with the only difference being Kenichi is cutting vs Doppo piercing

Applying a technique that undoes the suturing the skull is skill. The knowledge and application of what is basically an advanced surgery in 2 hits is skill. The definition stated that in order for something to be considered a technique, it is skilled. There are skills that don't require AP, but this isn't the "skill except for things that require AP and speed" thread, this is the skill thread. Feats without AP or speed required are great, but skills and techniques that do require them are still, by definition, skills. The replication of animal traits, so long as it isn't hax and it's just an exaggeration of real life.

Hands are structurally unable to pierce without the use of a technique like Nukite. An open palm strike, a punch, a chop, etc, all of them, completely regardless of size, will not pierce like something that comes to a point like Nukite or a bullet. And no, if the point you're trying to make is that AP is required, I already said it is and addressed that skill is not the absence of AP or speed and will not address further argumentation that uses this as a crux.

That's what would've happened if the fight had gone on, but regardless he was seeing, smelling, hearing, and feeling a person that wasn't there. Doppo has analytically predicted his entire attack pattern and moveset. The only time Doppo was hitting the fake Dorian was when combat was disengaged. Every time Dorian used any form of aggression, Doppo predicted it and reacted accordingly. Incorrect sensory information relay is literally what hypnosis is, and it affected all 5 of his sensory organs. The Odin's time of exposure point is fair, and with that I'd be willing to compromise and say that they are comparable.

Range advantage is not useless, as it doesn't matter if they're slower, you can fire off projectiles, each one holding the possibility of hitting, with the opponent being unable to even hit you by chance. Almost any weapon being sharp doesn't really discount the point in any way

Yes, the bottle feat is comparable if not better

He states the gut is unshaven, dirty, and smells bad in reference to it. As for the size of the knife, that would be a visual observation based on how he's seeing him walk, if his center balance is shifted to one side or the other, if he has a strange walk, etc

Seeing as I've been having to argue that skill feats presented are skill feats as opposed to how impressive they are for the majority of the Doppo discussion, I haven't really been able to flesh out whether or not it's impressive at Doppo's level of general skill.
 
The fighting style had no stance but it had a peculiar way of walking apparently. Walking is not a stance and as stated it was different.

Ok, doesn't mean we'll dicuss this in a skill debate.

Yeah, sure, mention 1 case when Doppo's ability will be better than the one i mentioned.

Sure then.

Ok then mention how hard it is. But at this point im tired. Time to get some true feats in here. Brought Apachai back from the dead using a killing knife and alcohol. So here is Akisame performing a feat no current medicine, doctor or surgery can acomplish using basic equipment.

Hands can pierce with enough speed. As for the "skill are not the absence of AP argument". Ok then Hayato tanked a 7-C nuke with skill. His son destroyed a massive building with skill. Oh what? These are AP feats you mean, well Saiga used one of Furinji's techniques to destroy the building so yeah purely skill.

Sure then Odin is comparable. Kenichi still hard negs it.

Ok here is Kenichi using a much better technique to deal with weaponry. Learned Blade Parry, which allows him to slip through blade attacks. And use it against any type of attack. Oh and it works on Masters (people MASSIVELY above kenichi in all regards including skill).

Sure then. Here is Shigure cutting metal with wooden a spoo.

Yeah ok Tirawit still has the better info analysis and other high class disciples like Shou Kanou can trick info analysis that works on trying to read their centre of gravity. Can hide his next moves and his centre of gravity.

Meh whatever, hayato still takes this point via negging perssure points.
 
Well, they seem pretty equal in almost everything (although there's still nothing on Hayato's lifting strength). It may come down to who takes first shot. Hayato may have the upper hand initially but Yujiro with Demon Back may be able to take this which surpasses Hayato. So I'll go with him for now though I may switch to inconclusive later on.
 
Firephoenixearl said:
This is a skill debate (to see who's more skilled), not a fight.
Click to expand...
If it were a fight I'd go for Yujiro, but honestly Hayato is superior to everybody in Ryozanpaku by several times so at this point its kinda hard.
 
Firephoenixearl said:
In a fight Hayato may or may not stomp due to aura, but once the baki revisions are over we can make an actual fight.
Click to expand...
I heard Yujiro is getting a possible downgrade but idk why
 
Firephoenixearl said:
It'll be mostly neutral. So some things will get downgraded, some things might get upgraded.
Click to expand...
You think Bakiverse could goto High 7-C or low 7-B or around there?
 
The whole point of the technique is that there is no easily spotted visual queues to its use, as it's intent is literally to lull the opponent into a false sense of security to attack the user and get countered. Doppo noticed a visual queue, so it would be an analysis feat

It's a skill, it's accepted on site as a reaction speed amp, so the Sangan point stands

If the goal is to open the opponent's defense to use a move superior to the brain wave disruption, if someone can counter a KO from such a move but can still be affected, TMF is a scalpel, not a broadsword.

To make a comparison, I suppose you could say it would be if a bowling ball was fractured into, like, medium sized chunks? Like 4ths or 16ths, and the only thing holding it together was like crappy glue or a sewing thread, but the thread or glue was of a similar toughness as the bowling ball. Doppo can undo the glue or thread (1 thread per hit) by hitting it without damaging the bowling ball. And as for Akisame's feat, that is deadass cool, but it's not combat applicable. That's why the "Dorian dressing his ear wound" and "Kenichi healing Ki" points weren't used

Okay, cool. How was Hayato's skill? You make jest, but if someone uses a technique to do something, it's literally skill. Now, that being said, with AP feats involving skill, the amount of AP used to preform the feat would determine how impressive the feat it (Doppo's hands were weaker than the bamboo, but he made up for it in technique and speed). I'm glad we're beginning to understand how skill feats work

Yes, I think that's fair

That's fair, it's definitely more impressive than just catching the blade

That's the opposite of Katsumi and Doppo's feat, but it's still very impressive: Doppo/Katsumi, despite having a massive AP advantage, are focusing their strikes so precisely and are hitting so fast, only the spot that they strike is damaged and the bottle isn't even set into motion. Shigure is cutting so fast and hard with his force so perfectly distributed throughout the spoon, not only does he cut the metal, but he doesn't even break the spoon

Yeah ok I already mentioned that Tirawit's IA is marginally better

Yeah I said that before
 
Firephoenixearl said:
In a fight Hayato may or may not stomp due to aura, but once the baki revisions are over we can make an actual fight.
Click to expand...
My most anticipated fights after this debate so far is Akisame vs Shibukawa, Doppo vs Odin possibly, Baki v Kenichi (of course), Retsu or Kaku vs Siegfried, and Yujiro vs Hayato. If I remember correctly, there is a female weapons expert in Kenichi as well, so her v Motobe or Musashi would be awesome too
 
Onto the points:

Ok whatever, in terms of info analysis we already decided there are better ones.

Never said it doesn't. I already told you Miu, dwarfs that with amping 10x to her reaction speed. As a skill point it gets outdone, i was talking more in general.

How will anyone counter "getting his brain waves disrupted"? Unless you mean unconscious fighting, but like...that also counters "can't think for a moment".

Well we were talking about the "medicine knowledge and application", that part gets massively dwarfed. That is like the peak of what Akisame has shown, other than that he has shown stuff like, unraveling the floor piece by peace (not break), by just slamming his hand into the floor. Basically undoing the structure of the entire area with a palm strike. like this.https://kenichi.fandom.com/wiki/Forced_Into_an_Agonizing_Position,_Destruction_Hell Stuff like this. There is stuff like dislocating and putting limbs back to their place but eh.

We're really not getting an understanding here, im just gonna get over this. It is a pure physical feat, on both parts. It being a technique, doesn't really make it any less of an AP feat. One can name their strongest attack after a technique, or give it a name, doesn't make it skill and DEFINITELY not impressive amounts of skill. But eh, case closed here.

The AP advantage is what cuts it (speed to be precise since Force = Mass x Accel (Or Impulse (mass x velocity) /time). I explained it to you before, why a bullet pierces, but a rock breaks glass. Despite the Bullet having far more AP. It's because of speed, the faster the object, the less damage it will produce on glass. Which is why that's possible, but Doppo trying to do the same while holding the glass (by applying pressure with his fingers) would just break it instead (because it is taking more time).
 
Yeah, I that's true, Tirawat's is probably better than anything Doppo can do

Ahhh okay, then yes, Miu's feat is better. The multiplier agreed for Sangan is like 2.5, but manga/anime wise, it's just "from overwhelmed" to "slightly faster or same speed", sorry for the misunderstanding

Like say someone has the ability to retroactively wake themselves up from being KO'd. The individual wouldn't be able to do that with TMF. An example, Gaia actually kills Baki in season 1 with some kind of hold or pressure point, commenting that Baki is dead. Baki projects himself as some kind of astral willpower ghost and resuscitates himself and headbutts Gaia to break out of the hold. If he was KO'd, he could do this to wake himself up, but if he's stopped from thinking, there's nothing he can really do (besides, the effects as we've seen last long enough for Doppo to get another hit in, so even if he could regain thought, he wouldn't have enough time)

In terms of application of medical knowledge, hands down Akisame's feat is better, however, in the context of application of medical knowledge in a combat scenario, Doppo's would be better, no? And that feat is better than a Yujiro feat I'll mention earlier, but it's nice to see that Yujiro has a feat comparable to someone like Akisame's best or one of his best. Katsumi can reset several joints in his arm with one movement. I'd say that's similar to that second link, but Roppa Gaeshi is like... dislocating the skull joints as a whole (?) here a link talking about what exactly skull sutures are Sutures of the skull: Anatomy | Kenhub

Skill feats can and do include AP and Speed a majority of the time, the skill part with those comes with how AP and speed are applied. Doppo can give his attacks piercing properties with his techniques and skill. To discern how much skill is involved, one would look to how much speed and AP affect the result. For example, if Yujiro or Hayato, without using any techniques, hit a bound bamboo or a wall or whatever have you with there strongest and fastest hit, they would still never pierce something like a knife or spear that comes to a point structurally. They can blow massive holes in things, completely destroy them, or dent them, but without a technique like Nukite, human hands could never pierce. I don't want you to feel irritated or upset about anything, I'm just trying to find a way to explain this notion. If you want to agree to disagree like we did for the Dorian tunnel feat, I'd understand, but I think this is an important topic to debate

In both the example of the glass bottle and the wooden spoon, those still seem like skill, just skillful use of speed
 
Firephoenixearl said:
Several of those matches would require me to...you know, make the profiles.
And im lazy
Click to expand...
I'll be patient. If you ever do make the profiles or if they are made by someone else and you notice, hit me up. Both myself and one of my friends I've been discussing this debate with irl are gunna get into Kenichi since it's a cool martial arts anime (I'm a fan of the genre, hence my like of Baki and Kengan)
 
Can't think is just due to pain doe. Anyone who can resist it si gucci. Besides, "can't think from pain" being > total mental shut down in any situation is just plain grasping at straws. Considering it is just a freaking eye poke, that also hits the nose. If you legit are incapable of doing it IRL i'll be surprised.

Yeah, but you forgot one part, we agreed on that being the only "skill" part of the technique. The rest is just smashing your fingers in places you know you should. And still, Akisame undoing the structure of the entire ground with literal shockwaves on top of having FAR better medicine feats than Doppo, he easily outclasses here. Not to mention it gets countered by Kenichi fighting unconscious.

Agree to disagree. There is nothing in "having a technique that punches treally hard" that is any more skill based than average people or average boxers putting their all in their punch.

Hardly, "skill", you don't need skill to do it. Same as how a bullet doesn't need skill to pierce a window. In Shigure's case, it is different cus she's cutting metal with a piece of wood (a stronger material using a weaker one) and not even a sharp one at that, but that's a different thing.
 
But is it actually from just pain? It's never specifically stated to be from pain, and while pain can induce that kind of phenomena where you can't think properly briefly, Yuu is still able to fight after being stabbed with the equivalent of a knife and having his skull opened up like a paper fortune teller. And remember, he never actually pokes there eye, he's slamming the bridge of the nose with the gap between his pointer finger and his thumb. I can do what he did irl, but I don't know how to recreate the same effect. Besides, AP and speed wise, Yuu and newly weakened Doppo weren't portrayed as far enough apart for such a simple hit to have such a profound effect. Katsumi v Hanayama, I'd expect that, the gap in AP looked to be something like 2-5x stronger imo, or Jack v base Baki where it was a straight up stomp even in-verse, but not this one

The skill part is that it's a martial arts technique that basically allows you to conduct a fairly difficult bone surgery in one hit. The medical feat isn't combat applicable like Roppa Gaeshi is, but the shockwave feat is astounding. I'm not sure how unconscious fighting counters the undoing the suturing of the skull, could you explain?

Okay

A bullet doesn't need skill because it is structurally designed to pierce, human hands are not. As far as that goes, by your logic, she's just using AP to cut through and equally distributing force across the spoon. I'm speaking to the actual skill of these feats
 
Since there is nothing explaining here and since it attacks the same area as a good headbutt and has a similar effect i'll say yes, from pain. Gets countered by Kenichi fighting unconscious though.

So Hayato takes this then? As for the kenichi fighting unconscious, it's a derp on my side, it was meant for the point above.

Yeah, they're specifically designed to pierce, hands are not, that's why they need more speed/power, but that's about it. As for Shigure it's a bit different cus it's not as simple as "AP" cus if it were the wooden spoon would break instead of the metal weapons, whereas as we see, the wooden spoon literally doesn't have a dent even after cutting several metal weapons tens of times.
 
But that's just speculation, right? Like how neither of us could actually explain how Dopposaur got passed security. Besides, pain isn't likely because of what he yanks later in the fight. Are Kenichi's analysis or senses good enough to fight while blinded?

Yes, Hayato's shockwave feat is a better version of even one of Yujiro's feats. Ahhh okay, yeah, I see that point

But a palm strike, punch, slap, or chop, regardless of speed and AP, can't pierce. They palm and punch dead blunt damage, slap is more like lashing damage, and an impressive chop can probably be equated to a slash, but Nukite pierces. In essence, it'd be fair to say Nukite allows for very minor dura neg, as we see him 1) cause internal hemorrhaging in Yuu with the toe stab despite the skin struck being irritated and red, but unbroken, yet he coughs up blood, but more importantly 2) he was able to pierce the bamboo despite it clearly being stronger than his fingers. As far as the spoon, that would be the effect of equally distributing her AP through the whole spoon. Too much force at the bottom causes the it to snap in the middle and break, and too much force on the top has a similar effect, but because not enough force was applied to the base (what she's holding) this time
 
Well, there is no reason to believe otherwise. So it's more than a speculation and closer to a "most likely". What he yanks later in the fight? As for Kenichi, i don't think there is any feat of him doing that. But with seikuken he can feel anything around him. But to put the nail in the coffin, there is Lugh who is completely blind.

Ok.

Oh it can, with enough speed or AP it can pierce just fine. Slap and chop are completely different things. A slap has too much surface area so it would never pierce, a chop doesn't have much surface area. 1) Internal damage, mid class Kenichi could do that. 2) The stronger than his fingers its more of a...pain resistance feat than skill. Cus his fingers are breaking, he's just enduring the pain and attacking regardless. Pain resistance was the whole point of the feat, for Doppo to say that having lost his fingers he can punch without worrying about the damage to his fingers.

As for the spoon, not even trying to stab a metal with a wooden spoon would break the metal, it would still break the spoon (if the thickest part of something cannot break through, then no part of it will). So it's just one of those things that we slap the "it works" and leave it be. Cus it cannot happen in real life.
 
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