Shadow Slave: Type 1 concepts and 1A absolute laws

[S33rz]

This CRT will be revising concepts within shadow slave.

Saints, Sovereigns and the world.​

To begin, we Will have to understand the nature of one's Source element, Spirit essence and the world.

Shadow Slave chapter 1581

His soul was filled with a cold ocean of essence, and that essence… it had already grown more potent after he had acquired Soul Weave. But now, it had become qualitatively different, possessing such depths and density as to appear inexhaustible. The intensity of power contained within it was frightening.

That was not the most shocking change, however.

The most shocking change… was that he could vaguely feel a different kind of energy all around him, cool and flowing, that was similar, but also different from the essence he was familiar with. That ambient essence seemed to belong to the world itself.

Or rather, to the shadows that surrounded him.

And since he was currently in total darkness, it was everywhere.

What really amazed him, though, was that the spirit essence flowed freely through him, wisps of it replenishing the missing shadow essence in his six cores. It was as if he was able to replenish his reserves of essence by borrowing the power of the world itself, as long as he was in his element.

'A stronger body, a qualitative change of essence, and an entirely new relationship between myself and the world…'

Sunny flinched.

As early as Transcendence, a Saint gains a qualitative change in their relationship between themselves and the world. This is further explained by Sunless mentioning how a person's soul begin's to come into contact with the world at this stage.

Shadow Slave chapter 1618

Saints did not exist in and of themselves, as sovereign beings. Their souls were vaster than their bodies, coming into contact with the world and the underlying laws governing it. Some parts of the world welcomed them, while others repelled them. That was why Transcendent beings were able to absorb the spirit essence of the world, as long as they were in their element.

For Sunny, that element was shadow. For someone like Saint Tyris, it was the sky, or perhaps storm clouds. For someone like Nephis… he couldn't guess. It might have been light, or flame, or something more esoteric, like inspiring longing in the souls of other beings.

Therefore… he guessed that what came after the body, the mind, and the souls was the world. Incorporating the world itself into one's battle art would probably make it a supreme battle art. That said, Sunny was not sure if it could even be called a battle art, at that point, let alone how to actually achieve something like that.

In any case, he was voraciously curious to witness and experience the battle styles of other Transcendent warriors. To learn from them, and maybe even gain more understanding about the path to supremacy.

These fit the definition of Type 2 concepts, especially when their nature is infused into the spirit of the Sovereign.

Shadow Slave chapter 3105

And those were not the only boons Shadow Weave granted him, either.

The power granted to those his seven shadows augmented was enhanced, while the seven shadows themselves became more tenacious and difficult to destroy. The range and intricacy of his Shadow Step was increased. The innate affinity of his Will deepened, making it stronger as far as visiting death upon living beings went. Sunny was the Sovereign of Death, after all, and Death had been created by Shadow. So when he accepted Shadow Weave, the Death aspect of his spirit was greatly enhanced.

Shadow Slave 2719

Sunny himself, however, felt a bit different.

The Spirit Weave had augmented his Will, making the world feel much more malleable. It altered the inherent nature of his Will, as well, granting it a second innate affinity — or at least greatly enhancing what had already been there.

Before, the main trait of Sunny's will was Death. Now, however, he also felt a strong connection to Fate. He did not know what to do with that affinity, and honestly, it was quite paradoxical for his Will to possess it — after all, he was a fateless being.

Shadow Slave 2248

At that moment, Nephis felt a profound change happen to her.

It was as if a brilliant spark of a beautiful golden hue had ignited in the blinding radiance of her fiery soul, making the immolating white flames seem dim in comparison.

That spark was a catalyst.

But it was not a catalyst for her soul becoming Supreme — instead, it was a catalyst that ignited her nascent Domain, making it swell with heat, with light… with life.

The fragile, ethereal connections she had established to countless people who had been inspired by her suddenly shone with a breathtaking radiance, and the radiance spread through the vast web of them, chasing away the encroaching darkness.

Her source element underwent a change, as well… no, not quite. It remained the same — however, it was as if the floodgates that prevented Nephis from experiencing it fully had been opened, and the shallow trickle of essence she had been receiving before turned full and powerful like a freely flowing river.

The dam had been broken.

Each of the countless people whose souls had been ignited by the flames of longing was a source of this radiant spirit essence, and as the spirit essence flowed into Nephis, her own essence was galvanized by it, undergoing a qualitative transformation.

Making her Supreme.

Therefore the spirit of Sovereigns should include concept Type 2 and Saints should possess Limited Concept type 2 interaction with their souls.

Spirits and Type 1 concepts.​

Leaving that behind lets talk about Spirits and their concepts.

According to Asterion, the concepts which are held by Spirits encompass an entire realm and fuse with the laws that govern it, we however also know that these concepts themselves existed before time and are independent of the things they govern. An example would be the Concept of destruction, which not only exists before time but can erase all of existence requiring it to be independent of said existence for it's continuation and has a counterpart in the Concept of creation itself, Spirits should thus have Type 1 concepts as a result.

In addition, this concept of destruction is capable of affecting the very foundation of the world, which is a plane of existence that houses these Type 1 concepts, the metaphysical residence of these concepts as they are Type 1 concepts should be at least Low1A as a result.

Shadow Slave chapter 3100

It was just that when the merciless radiance of Godgrave collided with the boundless sea of elemental darkness, something that no one could define, let alone fathom, was unleashed. A dreadful cataclysm shook the very foundation of the world, happening on higher planes of existence than what mortals could perceive.

The universal laws of existence themselves were shaken by the unimaginable calamity, groaning and twisting around the ancient city. That upheaval echoed in the material world, causing untold devastation and making the colossal stalagmite quake. The mountain-sized stalactites above swayed, as well, and enormous slabs of stone fell from the distant ceiling of the great cavern.

Absolute laws.​

Finally, we shall discuss Absolute Laws. For ease of information, you may refer to this blog.

• Absolute laws govern all of existence, with Divine beings and their "Essence" which encompass all of existence being woven into the universal laws that rule it, becoming the very essence of these laws individually present within the metaphysical foundation of all realms.

It might be easier to understand if you limit the scope of the comparison. What differentiates Spirits from Sovereigns? A Transcendent's soul expands beyond the confines of their mortal shell. A Supreme's soul draws on their source element and grows to encompass a Domain. A Spirit, meanwhile... a Spirit is an embodiment of their source element. They are beings whose souls encompass an entire realm, fusing with the laws that govern it. A Divine being, meanwhile — a true god — is someone whose essence encompasses all of existence, woven into the universal laws that rule it.

• Absolute concepts, exist prior and above concepts such as Destruction and Creation, being created even before all of existence and are already accepted as Type 1 concepts, thus they should fulfill this criteria.

Far above, Nephis was drifting in the harrowing white abyss of the godless sky.

There was no wind here, no hope, and no salvation. Only silence and blinding radiance that went beyond fire, beyond light, beyond heat. That radiance was destruction incarnate… it was destruction itself, a force from before time existed that was capable of erasing entire worlds from existence. Of erasing existence itself.

Nephis was burning.

Her body was made of flame, but even that flame was being destroyed.

Her soul was turning to ash, and the ashes of her soul were turning into nothingness.

There, in that merciless white abyss…

• These concepts exist one and the same with the God's, who do not possess seperate souls, bodies and soul sea's instead they are all the same thus lacking internal complexity in their identity. It is even stated that everything that Shadow swallowed died, and everything that died was swallowed by Shadow. Essentially saying the distinction between Death and Shadow does not exist, and that something is only participating in Death when participating in Shadow. Such that without Shadow's, Death itself is impossible. The Subject (Death) and the Predicate (Dying/Dies) are all treated as one and thesame, Shadow God. This would thus scale the God's to 1A as well.

Shadow slave chapter 1302

Description: [When Shadow made death, he has become death. Everything that Shadow swallowed died, and everything that died was swallowed by Shadow. Death was an absolute law, and thus, that which was everchanging was everchanging no more. Time was an absolute law, and thus, that which was everlasting was everlasting no more.

Space was an absolute law, and thus, that which was endless was endless no more. Wielding time, space, and death, the gods defeated and bound their enemies.

However, there were those who defied even absolute laws. One of these beings broke free of the Shadow Realm after being swallowed by it, and in doing so, splintered several small fragments of it. This is one of the fragments.]

As per these statements by Ultima, as shadow God is Deathness itself, requiring one to participate with his own nature to participate in the absolute law of death, he would at least scale to these concepts and the plane that houses these Concepts should scale to 1A.


Agree:
Disagree:
Neutral:

 

[Seraphor12]

Essentially saying the distinction between Seath and Shadow does not exist, and that something is only participating in Death when participating in Shadow.

Ig this should be death

 

[Floxy178]

This would thus scale the God's to 1A as well.

Is this only for "perfect" Gods?

 

[Seraphor12]

Is this only for "perfect" Gods?

Basically those 7 gods(bums), like shadow god, storm god, sun god etc.

 

[Floxy178]

Basically those 7 gods(bums), like shadow god, storm god, sun god etc.

? I'm asking if that'd also apply to post imperfection law versions as well or not.

 

[Seraphor12]

? I'm asking if that'd also apply to post imperfection law versions as well or not.

I think yes, because that law didn't really affected their ontology.

 

[S33rz]

Is this only for "perfect" Gods?

? I'm asking if that'd also apply to post imperfection law versions as well or not.

I think they should scale to it, the major reason why Daemon's can be the Flaws of the God's has to do with the nature of their Flame/Connection to the Forgotten One. This shouldn't affect their scaling.

Also, would you be so kind as to tag some mods. It would be better if we could get this show on the road.

 

[Floxy178]

Also, would you be so kind as to tag some mods. It would be better if we could get this show on the road

The thread just got created, if it doesn't get attention in a day or two I may tag them. (no need to bother them immediately when they're already mostly overloaded)

 

[S33rz]

The thread just got created, if it doesn't get attention in a day or two I may tag them. (no need to bother them immediately when they're already mostly overloaded)

Very well, thank you.

 

[karo_senpaii]

This CRT will be revising concepts within shadow slave.

Saints, Sovereigns and the world.​

To begin, we Will have to understand the nature of one's Source element, Spirit essence and the world.

Shadow Slave chapter 1581


As early as Transcendence, a Saint gains a qualitative change in their relationship between themselves and the world. This is further explained by Sunless mentioning how a person's soul begin's to come into contact with the world at this stage.

Shadow Slave chapter 1618


These fit the definition of Type 2 concepts, especially when their nature is infused into the spirit of the Sovereign.

Shadow Slave chapter 3105


Shadow Slave 2719


Shadow Slave 2248


Therefore the spirit of Sovereigns should include concept Type 2 and Saints should possess Limited Concept type 2 interaction with their souls.

Spirits and Type 1 concepts.​

Leaving that behind lets talk about Spirits and their concepts.

According to Asterion, the concepts which are held by Spirits encompass an entire realm and fuse with the laws that govern it, we however also know that these concepts themselves existed before time and are independent of the things they govern. An example would be the Concept of destruction, which not only exists before time but can erase all of existence requiring it to be independent of said existence for it's continuation and has a counterpart in the Concept of creation itself, Spirits should thus have Type 1 concepts as a result.

In addition, this concept of destruction is capable of affecting the very foundation of the world, which is a plane of existence that houses these Type 1 concepts, the metaphysical residence of these concepts as they are Type 1 concepts should be at least Low1A as a result.

Shadow Slave chapter 3100

I disagree with this being for spirits. This should specifically be for divine rank. Even in the scan you're using, asterion makes a distinction that seems to denote that only at divine rank do you embody a concept that governs all of existence.

Also we've been familiar with sacred/cursed. They seem to embody type 3/2 concepts most of the time. For example "condemnation" , "adjudication" , "abundance".

So yeah I think this should apply to divine rank and not sacred

Absolute laws.​

Finally, we shall discuss Absolute Laws. For ease of information, you may refer to this blog.

• Absolute laws govern all of existence, with Divine beings and their "Essence" which encompass all of existence being woven into the universal laws that rule it, becoming the very essence of these laws individually present within the metaphysical foundation of all realms.

• Absolute concepts, exist prior and above concepts such as Destruction and Creation, being created even before all of existence and are already accepted as Type 1 concepts, thus they should fulfill this criteria.

• These concepts exist one and the same with the God's, who do not possess seperate souls, bodies and soul sea's instead they are all the same thus lacking internal complexity in their identity. It is even stated that everything that Shadow swallowed died, and everything that died was swallowed by Shadow. Essentially saying the distinction between Death and Shadow does not exist, and that something is only participating in Death when participating in Shadow. Such that without Shadow's, Death itself is impossible. The Subject (Death) and the Predicate (Dying/Dies) are all treated as one and thesame, Shadow God. This would thus scale the God's to 1A as well.

Shadow slave chapter 1302


As per these statements by Ultima, as shadow God is Deathness itself, requiring one to participate with his own nature to participate in the absolute law of death, he would at least scale to these concepts and the plane that houses these Concepts should scale to 1A.


Agree:
Disagree:
Neutral:

This I fully agree with

 

[S33rz]

I disagree with this being for spirits. This should specifically be for divine rank. Even in the scan you're using, asterion makes a distinction that seems to denote that only at divine rank do you embody a concept that governs all of existence.

These concepts are sufficiently independent from the particulars they govern, and do not rely on their material existence, i.e affecting them materially will not affect the concepts themselves so they can't be Type 2.

Also we've been familiar with sacred/cursed. They seem to embody type 3/2 concepts most of the time. For example "condemnation" , "adjudication" , "abundance".

Sunny embodies a Type 2 "Death" of which there "is" an Absolute law, Sunny however doesn't have Type 1. And we know Death as a concept is greater than these, heck even things like Fate can be embodied by Supreme's (at least within their spirit).

 

[karo_senpaii]

These concepts are sufficiently independent from the particulars they govern, and do not rely on their material existence, i.e affecting them materially will not affect the concepts themselves so they can't be Type 2.

That's the thing. We've seen the concepts that cursed and sacred wield, is there any evidence that they are independent?

Sunny embodies a Type 2 "Death" of which there "is" an Absolute law, Sunny however doesn't have Type 1. And we know Death as a concept is greater than these, heck even things like Fate can be embodied by Supreme's (at least within their spirit).

I mean you're kinda agreeing with me that you can be fused with a concept but not to the highest level there is. It's exactly how I'm saying even though they fuse with a realm, they don't embody the concepts governing that realm at the level you think. We already have the individual concepts they embody and there is no evidence for it being type 1

 

[S33rz]

That's the thing. We've seen the concepts that cursed and sacred wield, is there any evidence that they are independent?

Of course there is. Modret became Corrupted because the laws you must come in contact with in the Dream Realm is that of Corruption and the laws of the war realm deny the existence of Awakened.

“Mordret failed to achieve natural Apotheosis because that is the fate awaiting all of you, children of the War Realm, if you dare to try. That is because your own realm denies your existence... so, you are left with no choice but to attempt it here, in the Dream Realm. But what do you think will happen to someone who tries to fuse their soul with the laws of the Realm of Corruption?"

Ignoring the fact that if the gods or anyone really could simply rid corruption by destroying every corrupted being it would be long gone (except maybe Sun god who got busy with void beings), the Concept of destruction is similar in nature to Corruption, it exists in the Sun realm (which is now a part of the Dream realm) and is one of the laws there as well.

Far above, Nephis was drifting in the harrowing white abyss of the godless sky.

There was no wind here, no hope, and no salvation. Only silence and blinding radiance that went beyond fire, beyond light, beyond heat. That radiance was destruction incarnate… it was destruction itself, a force from before time existed that was capable of erasing entire worlds from existence. Of erasing existence itself.

Nephis was burning.

Her body was made of flame, but even that flame was being destroyed.

Her soul was turning to ash, and the ashes of her soul were turning into nothingness.

There, in that merciless white abyss…

It would therefore make no sense to say these concepts aren't independent since they don't rely on material existence.

It would also make no sense to say spirits do not fuse with them, as Modret who was becoming a spirit would be required to fuse with these laws by word of Asterion.

I mean you're kinda agreeing with me that you can be fused with a concept but not to the highest level there is. It's exactly how I'm saying even though they fuse with a realm, they don't embody the concepts governing that realm at the level you think. We already have the individual concepts they embody and there is no evidence for it being type 1

Why do you believe that the highest level there is to concepts in any verse must be type 1 by default?

Why wouldn't they, what statements are against my point across the series?

1. Independent Universal Concepts: Such concepts are completely independent from the part of reality they govern, except maybe of other concepts of this nature. These concepts shape all of reality within their area of influence and at whatever level that area exists in, and everything in it "participates" in these concepts. For example, a circular object is circular because it is "participating" in the concept of "circle-ness". In this way, the alteration of these concepts will change every object of the concept across all of their area of influence, while the opposite wouldn't affect the concept.

Being fused with concepts which do not require material existence to keep functioning, is more than enough for Type 1.

 

[Verezen]

This CRT will be revising concepts within shadow slave.

Saints, Sovereigns and the world.​

To begin, we Will have to understand the nature of one's Source element, Spirit essence and the world.

Shadow Slave chapter 1581


As early as Transcendence, a Saint gains a qualitative change in their relationship between themselves and the world. This is further explained by Sunless mentioning how a person's soul begin's to come into contact with the world at this stage.

Shadow Slave chapter 1618


These fit the definition of Type 2 concepts, especially when their nature is infused into the spirit of the Sovereign.

Shadow Slave chapter 3105


Shadow Slave 2719


Shadow Slave 2248


Therefore the spirit of Sovereigns should include concept Type 2 and Saints should possess Limited Concept type 2 interaction with their souls.

Spirits and Type 1 concepts.​

Leaving that behind lets talk about Spirits and their concepts.

According to Asterion, the concepts which are held by Spirits encompass an entire realm and fuse with the laws that govern it, we however also know that these concepts themselves existed before time and are independent of the things they govern. An example would be the Concept of destruction, which not only exists before time but can erase all of existence requiring it to be independent of said existence for it's continuation and has a counterpart in the Concept of creation itself, Spirits should thus have Type 1 concepts as a result.

In addition, this concept of destruction is capable of affecting the very foundation of the world, which is a plane of existence that houses these Type 1 concepts, the metaphysical residence of these concepts as they are Type 1 concepts should be at least Low1A as a result.

Shadow Slave chapter 3100

Absolute laws.​

Finally, we shall discuss Absolute Laws. For ease of information, you may refer to this blog.

• Absolute laws govern all of existence, with Divine beings and their "Essence" which encompass all of existence being woven into the universal laws that rule it, becoming the very essence of these laws individually present within the metaphysical foundation of all realms.

• Absolute concepts, exist prior and above concepts such as Destruction and Creation, being created even before all of existence and are already accepted as Type 1 concepts, thus they should fulfill this criteria.

• These concepts exist one and the same with the God's, who do not possess seperate souls, bodies and soul sea's instead they are all the same thus lacking internal complexity in their identity. It is even stated that everything that Shadow swallowed died, and everything that died was swallowed by Shadow. Essentially saying the distinction between Death and Shadow does not exist, and that something is only participating in Death when participating in Shadow. Such that without Shadow's, Death itself is impossible. The Subject (Death) and the Predicate (Dying/Dies) are all treated as one and thesame, Shadow God. This would thus scale the God's to 1A as well.

Shadow slave chapter 1302


As per these statements by Ultima, as shadow God is Deathness itself, requiring one to participate with his own nature to participate in the absolute law of death, he would at least scale to these concepts and the plane that houses these Concepts should scale to 1A.


Agree:
Disagree:
Neutral:

Looks good

 

[MrKerf]

@ActuallySpaceMan42 , sorry man, but do your thing.

 

[RaveeCPN]

I disagree.

Along with Absolute Laws, the Void and 7 Gods etc., you need to scale Nothingness to 1-A as well. Since its the only (no)thing that can containt the Void.



There are people/beings that can control Nothingness and its potency litteraly depends on the mastery + how much Nothingness the person contains.



We litteraly see Time Saint (who is definitely not 1-A) being able to use his aspect, even though his powers should be nulled by the Nothingness. Nephis can be augmented by "full power" of her Aspect as well, when Absence (who has much more Nothingness than Saint and can control it better) used Nothingness to suppress their powers.





IDK if I should quote the FAQ but imma do it anyways:

Q: Are there any disqualifiers for qualitative superiority?

A: The potential disqualifiers largely revolve around the aforementioned aspect of inaccessibility: A qualitative superiority is completely irreducible to anything lesser than itself, and conversely, it cannot be reached by any additive process whatsoever.

The first practical effect of this fact is that the power of a 1-A character cannot be dispersed so much that it reaches into a lower tier. Since there is no conceivable extension of any lower tier that can yield equality to a 1-A structure, neither can there be any subdivision (Even an infinite subdivision) of 1-A that reduces down into such tiers.

 

[Seraphor12]

.

This is not a response to your objection(I will try to reply tomorrow about that ig), I just wanted to clarify what is being argued for 1-A here.
Basically, the concept of death, time, space etc are not 1A, and neither are their instances. Instead, the ontological ground on which they're grounded is 1-a. So, characters affecting time or resisting it is not relevant, as it is not 1-a to start with. The essence of them is 1-A and if they can affect essence then they would be 1-A. Absolute law of death was grounded on shadow god's divinity. And also, to clarify what I mean with Absolute law, in verse, they call the absolute law of death not just as concept which erases corruption from souls after death but also shadows being destroyed by shadow god, peoples dying, the concept of death, Shadow god himself, all of that are called as the functions of one absolute law. So, I meant absolute law in that sense. For time, space we don't know which god created them, but we know that gods created them so someone among those 6 bums should be the ground for those absolute laws too. If not them then it must be Flame.

 

[RaveeCPN]

This is not a response to your objection(I will try to reply tomorrow about that ig)

Aight, take your time

 

[S33rz]

Along with Absolute Laws, the Void and 7 Gods etc., you need to scale Nothingness to 1-A as well. Since its the only (no)thing that can containt the Void.

I only need to scale Flame to at least 1-A, I don't think Nothingness itself needs such a thing.

There are people/beings that can control Nothingness and its potency litteraly depends on the mastery + how much Nothingness the person contains.

They control it because their power's come from their Aspect, which as I'll add is derived from the Flame.

I'm sorry but your argument is the same as saying because Sunless has "A" concept of death within his spirit then "No" concept of death can be 1A, which makes no sense.

The entire reason why Nothingness acts this way once it enters the cage of desire is because of the law of imperfection affecting the world. Said Laws are carved upon the Flame.

"Because one can't exist without the other. Imperfection is also an absolute law, just like death… and so, nothing is flawless. Even the world itself is flawed. Even the gods, who were born flawless, are not perfect anymore. And so, we humans are flawed, too."

"It is in the depths of the Flame. Life is war; peace is death… these are the laws carved into existence by the Incarnations of Flame."

Even humans are ontologically reduced by the source Flame such that they must remove the seals placed upon them to further their ascension.

If the Spell had the ability to laugh, it would surely do so after hearing his thoughts. However, it didn't. Instead, it began to speak again:

[The First Seal is broken.]

[Awakening dormant powers…]

Why would Nothingness be any different then?

We litteraly see Time Saint (who is definitely not 1-A) being able to use his aspect, even though his powers should be nulled by the Nothingness. Nephis can be augmented by "full power" of her Aspect as well, when Absence (who has much more Nothingness than Saint and can control it better) used Nothingness to suppress their powers.

Aspects themselves being able to remain unaffected by Nothingness in this case isn't an anti feat. In fact, Nothingness affecting anything and anyone within the cage of desire, which I'll add is even meant to even bind void beings within it (Void beings being sent to shadow realm even temporarily) shouldn't even be brought up as an anti feat.