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Shovel Knight 2-C

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ZillertheBucko said:
Strawman
I’m saying that characters who are vastly superior to something may still be shown not one shotting or not blitzing or stuff like that, so anti feats like that are a little shaky.
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You could say that about literally any anti-feat in any circumstances, it's a goofy ass argument and I'm ignoring it.
Lou_change said:
So I want to point out this might actually be reasonable looking at other feats shovel showdown has the cast seemingly destroy an alternate dimension
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Scans.
Lou_change said:
the ultimate potion is a concoction which is said to grant the unfathomable power to reshape the world to one's wish to whoever drinks it and the knights essence is used to create it. It being used to only destroy the tower is likely due to that being what plague knight and Mona wish to use it for.
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Way too vague and does it even scale to anyone?
 
Armorchompy said:
You could say that about literally any anti-feat in any circumstances, it's a goofy ass argument and I'm ignoring it.
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I was specifically referring to situations where something is shown to be superior, just not superior enough by your standards. That is certainly not every anti feat in every circumstance, not even close.
 
I admittedly don't know about Shovel Showdown, so if it has legit feats, then I'm open to reconsider.
 
I played showdown but completely forgot about it
although as far as I can tell, the feat is just that the mirror was capable of seemingly creating a mirror dimension, and at the end of every campaign the character is able to defeat the mirror of fate and the dimension is erased

I mean, it’s better than nothing, I suppose.
 
Oh, hey, it says that the enchantress’ magic is what’s responsible as well

IMG_0934.jpg


IMG_0935.jpg

Again, better than nothing.
 
Lou_change said:
the ultimate potion is a concoction which is said to grant the unfathomable power to reshape the world to one's wish to whoever drinks it and the knights essence is used to create it. It being used to only destroy the tower is likely due to that being what plague knight and Mona wish to use it for.
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The Ultimate Potion is made out of Essence, whose properties are still unknown, and as you've said before in previous threads, Plague of Shadows implies that Essence isn't just the physical might of a character, but it could be a piece of their personality or mind.

And as a reminder, the Ultimate Potion was an item that could alter reality for someone, it's a hax and not an actual AP (I know there are exceptions, but the Ultimate Potion doesn't completely alter reality, unlike the AP of some Reality Warping users) or Striking Strength feat for the cast, no clue why we are conflating this stuff.
 
ZillertheBucko said:
I played showdown but completely forgot about it
although as far as I can tell, the feat is just that the mirror was capable of seemingly creating a mirror dimension, and at the end of every campaign the character is able to defeat the mirror of fate and the dimension is erased

I mean, it’s better than nothing, I suppose.
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Yeah, I wouldn't use that for scaling personally.
 
LephyrTheRevanchist said:
Yeah, I wouldn't use that for scaling personally.
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Also, on its death, it seems to just suck up the entire world
(3:54)
I was under the impression that right now we’re searching more for narrative consistency and stakes rather than just raw scaling, considering that a big problem before was that it was too “urban”
 
Which means, I don't consider that "feat" valid.

If others do, it is what it is.

If there's more, however, again, I remain open.
 
I genuinely do not know where does the "dimension destruction" stuff even come from. The only thing we're shown is the mirror turning into some singularity and devouring the entire arena and the characters, and spitting them back out into their home dimension. This likely wouldn't be a tier 2 feat either, as it's implied in Specter Knight's ending that there was no time in that dimension. no wait im a ******* dumbass it looks like the mirror sends them back to where they were previously in time While you could argue that the dimension is an entire universe, it could also be argued that the mirror and the cast wouldn't scale to it since it only happened when the mirror was dying, and there's plenty of examples of characters in fiction doing way more damage with their suicide attack, but at this point we'd be entering into headcanon territory because of how vague this feat is.
 
I never said dimension destruction, just that it was created by the power of the enchantress and then eaten back up by the mirror, but I guess that’s similar
but I was more so leaning to to creation feat side of things
 
ZillertheBucko said:
I never said dimension destruction, just that it was created by the power of the enchantress and then eaten back up by the mirror, but I guess that’s similar
but I was more so leaning to to creation feat side of things
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I was arguing against Lou's points, not yours.
 
ZillertheBucko said:
I was under the impression that right now we’re searching more for narrative consistency and stakes rather than just raw scaling, considering that a big problem before was that it was too “urban”
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no we're definitely not lol, vague hype doesn't mean shit
 
From tier 8 to tier 2-C simply from one single outlier, hard no from me (gosh, Ant would hate it as well)
 
Armorchompy said:
no we're definitely not lol, vague hype doesn't mean shit
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well whatever.
Here's everything we've got, we have complete confirmation from Yacht Club, Bruno, Cory, that the fight between Kratos and Shovel Knight is canon, along with a statement from Bruno that Kratos was not nerfed and that Shovel Knight is good enough to match him, we have the enchantress' magic having a creation feat of whatever you wanna believe the mirror is (considering that it's literally just a mirror of the real world, it's probably a whole universe), and we also have Kratos himself being brought to a kneel by him and stating that shovel knight is comparable to "the wrath of hades" whatever that means, I haven't played god of war.
Do with it what you will at this point, but I don't see any good reason for going any less than option B or D or whatever
 
Zamasu and Armor make very reasonable points here. Even if it is canon, it's such a stark difference in power compared to literally everything else in SK. The logical conclusion would be to call it an outlier. I don't think the fact that this fight is more of an afterthought helps its case, either. It's a fight that can happen at any point, which really weakens its standing even further. This should be a hard no to Shovel Knight scaling.
 
Based on the canon crossover definition:
Canon crossovers officially take place within both continuities, and as such recurrently happen within a shared universe or feature characters made by the same creators. Examples include Mario Vs Donkey Kong or Dead or Alive/Ninja Gaiden. It is canon to both franchises and feats/scaling may be used if they are consistent.

It is canon if the crossover either:
1- Happens recurrently within a shared universe.​
OR
2- Feature characters made by the same creators.​

I agree that the evidence for 1 is lacking, but it qualifies based on 2 since both Santa Monica and Yacht Club designed the boss fight and Kratos' 2D design together, and both have affirmed that the encounter is canon.

The definition also states that the crossover should preferably be referenced in both story settings, so 1 isn't an obligatory requirement as interpreted by Bambu:
Take note that crossovers should preferably be referenced within the separate story settings themselves at some point in order to count as official on each side.

Opposition based on consistency is much more compelling.
 
StrymULTRA said:
My idea is simple. Can't we simply split Shovel Knight in two keys, one for canon and the other for GoW?

A bit like Buzz Lightyear and other Toy Story characters have keys for a Movie and KH key for the exact same reason.
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Eh, I wouldn't compare this case to that, as the reason there's a separation on keys was just out of some finding the canonicity sus, and the fact the characters that appear in KH were the only ones teleported into a copy of the TS universe without humans and whatever by Young Xehanort to seemingly use them as test subjects on if the Replica Program could work with any sort of heart, meaning that they had different bodies than usual, and it's even pointed out they had unusual capabilities at the time (so it can't be an outlier). I'd also note that the reason only Woody and Buzz have KH keys is because they're the only ones with profiles that appear in KH (as said before, YX didn't carry everyone, that's even a plot point).

If anything this CRT is making me notice we'd been playing too safe on this crossover and the canonicity dubiousness should be removed over there as well as it doesn't conflict at all with the TS timeline, let alone how even the CEO of Pixar finds it canon, we don't need the TS characters to suddendly speak about Sora and company in a TS work, as much we aren't asking for a SK game to bring up Kratos and whatever after the one he appeared on, which was about the main reason a compromise was required on that now-questionable canonicity note.

All of that said, as the KH to TS situation is its own can of worms for another time, consistency issues scaling-wise and whatever between SK and GoW are another story, and overall I'm leaning to agree on this being a outlier at best for SK given the lack of proper lore regarding a jump from tier 8 to tier 2, let alone how much it sticks out if we'd scale it to everyone else relevant in SK.
 
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The enchantress’ magic scaling to the creation of the mirror world would be an upgrade regardless
does anybody (knowledgeable on shovel knight) have any opinions regarding that?
 
For the time being, there’s an overwhelming majority that it should be canon, there’s a 4 staff majority votes that say it should be at least a separate key, and 2 staff each saying separate key or full rating individually, and 0 going for a possibly rating.
 
canonicty does not negate the fact it is an outlier feat. I still disagree as well.
 
Too bad but this is a content revision, I still can express my disagreement as much as everyone here, given that I have my own less reasons for it,
 
Adem_Warlock69 said:
The fact that the creators consider Shovel Knight "to be that good", doesn't that make calling it an outlier iffy?
I remember Roshi's 5-C had a similar situation
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I’ve brought it up time and time again but I’ve been met with “death of the author” and “we just don’t ******* care” over and over, to the point where multiple author statements are basically treated like nothing anymore without a buncha more feats 🗿
Ped2018 said:
Huh? Dragon ball has canon crossovers or sumn?
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It had an outlier situation, which as far as I know went down as one of the infamous dumbest conflicts in the wiki’s history
 
Adem_Warlock69 said:
I remember Roshi's 5-C had a similar situation
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Not even close. Roshi's an actual, legit, on-screen feat. This is scaling not substantiated anywhere.

After Roshi's feat, we also got proper scale of feats, with King Piccolo being capable of blowing the Earth apart piece by piece, then Kami recreating the moon.

SK has absolutely nothing.
 
omegabronic said:
SK fighting kraros is scaling to tier 2, it is not a tier 2 feat, it is a scaling feat sure, but not a tier 2 feat of himself
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Harming a tier 2 character is a tier 2 feat. I don’t know why we’re being weird about this
say it’s an outlier sure, but saying shovel knight has no tier 2 feat is just wrong.
 
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