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Should Genshin Impact's Hilichurl Tier really be Low 7-B?

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I was checking out how Genshin Impact is tiered, and the verse sure looks incredibly overpowered by the feats we're shown: the LOWEST feat in the setting is Razor apparently conjuring nimbustratus clouds while striking downwards. The lowest speed feat is an in-game ability to dodge lightning bolts, which any player character can perform.

However, there are problems with both these calculations: when the character in-game "dodges lightning", this is objectively speaking aim-dodging. The player has not reacted to the falling lightning, rather they are shown where it is aimed and can leave the way or perfectly time a dash or skill/ult to gain i-frames. This is not a player performing lightning dodging feats, this is textbook aim-dodging. Furthermore, this feat does not actually scale to anyone but the Traveler. This is because countless cutscenes imply that the Traveler isn't actually fighting with a four-people team, but rather alone. The Plane of Euthymia is only entered by the Traveler, not by the team the player creates to enter it: other people are left out. The Traveler also fights Childe alone, among many other occurrences. Canonically, we are best off assuming that the Traveler actually fights alone unless otherwise specified, accompanied only by the non-combatant Paimon.

As for Razor's feat, it has been pointed out by others that since the clouds come out before Razor strikes the ground, this feat shouldn't scale to the physical capabilities. I would further add that this feat seems very much like an aesthetic flair and may not be literal: Razor doesn't in any way extract electricity from the clouds he allegedly summons, nor does he use them for anything in the move whatsoever. They're just there for appearance and have no bearing in the power of the attack. As such, we might assume they are also only shown at all because it looks cool, not because Razor is powerful enough to create clouds.

So I'd like to ask: what would Genshin Impact's scaling look like without these two feats which could easily be deemed to be outliers, or exaggerations/hyperboles, or non-literal, or game mechanics?

And I would like to request a verse-wide downgrade for Genshin Impact!
 
that particular feat of the "player" dodging lightning bolts has always been weird to me, especially since it is something we do as the "Player" and not an action done by the characters.}


but in that case what level of speed would the characters have?
 
the shenhe tsunami is one of them lol.

and I'm sure there are many more.
I feel that the feats' context in question should be evaluated. Also, I feel that more feats supporting Hilichurl Tier GI characters should be found. I agree with the Mand21's opinion regarding Razor's feat.
 
I feel that the feats' context in question should be evaluated. Also, I feel that more feats supporting Hilichurl Tier GI characters should be found. I agree with the Mand21's opinion regarding Razor's feat.
Oh, don't worry, I will always value consistency above anything else, just that the Genshin is definitely above building level

Although I wonder what the "player" lightning dodging feat will be replaced with.

Since it seems to be the only feat I see of that type... which also makes me wonder about the consistency of these feats.
 
Yeah, I believe Genshin Impact needs to be wholly re-evaluated. I don't think the high-end characters who are Adeptus tier and higher are all that likely to fall below Nuclear tier, and I also think the Archons are quite solidly on the early Tectonic tier, but we're definitely in need of downgrading that verse's speed and also the power of the mid-tier characters.

I suspect that Genshin's Hilichurls and trained Vision users would be on Urban tier after this. Maybe even just 9-B through 9-A!

That makes a lot more sense than having a God be ressurrected to destroy Liyue when in theory all you would need would be for Paimon to descend upon it and deliver some of her Paimonial Wrath. After all, I'm pretty sure Paimon should scale to Nuclear Tier on current standards.
 
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while I don't think genshin is that low, if the calculations degrade to such levels, then I have to agree.

I'm interested in how it all turns out, though.

but i think the more important thing than the AP is the speed feats, the verse only has one of it which is incredibly dubious as it relies on the "Player" being able to dodge lightning in the game.
 
So I'd like to ask: what would Genshin Impact's scaling look like without these two feats which could easily be deemed to be outliers, or exaggerations/hyperboles, or non-literal, or game mechanics?

And I would like to request a verse-wide downgrade for Genshin Impact!
Maybe Tier 8, and I agree that razor calc and scaling shouldn't be use and the so called lightning feat is just gameplay shenanigans
 
Oh, don't worry, I will always value consistency above anything else, just that the Genshin is definitely above building level

Although I wonder what the "player" lightning dodging feat will be replaced with.
Only speed "feats" I can quickly recall are
1. Albedo dodging Amber's arrow centimeters to his face
2. Game description states Wanderer "Moved like Lightning itself " when he blocked the Shouki no Kami's beam that attack traveler ( Who this scales to is questionable)
3. That goofy scene were Kazuha traveled several meters before Raiden's blade could move centimeters
4. Dehya and Tighnari off screen dodging Scaramouche's Cloud to Ground lightning, Tighnari got nabbed though and the lightning wasn't strictly hitting people as the scene before shows the bolts striking the ground severally
5. Kazuha dodging an arrow in his Demo
6. Yelan using some guy attached to her string to block an arrow in her Demo.



There aren't really concrete visual feats to place them solidly at MHS like someone dodging a Lightning bolt or something so where they consistently scale to is questionable

There seems to be a lot going on with arrows in this verse
Since it seems to be the only feat I see of that type... which also makes me wonder about the consistency of these feats.
 
Only speed "feats" I can quickly recall are
1. Albedo dodging Amber's arrow centimeters to his face
2. Game description states Wanderer "Moved like Lightning itself " when he blocked the Shouki no Kami's beam that attack traveler ( Who this scales to is questionable)
3. That goofy scene were Kazuha traveled several meters before Raiden's blade could move centimeters
4. Dehya and Tighnari off screen dodging Scaramouche's Cloud to Ground lightning, Tighnari got nabbed though and the lightning wasn't strictly hitting people as the scene before shows the bolts striking the ground severally
5. Kazuha dodging an arrow in his Demo


There aren't really concrete visual feats to place them solidly at MHS like someone dodging a Lightning bolt or something so where they consistently scale to is questionable
Well, at least we have something.

because honestly it looks bad that the only feat that everyone scales is technically game mechanics lol.
 
I'm not a expert here, but, couldn't Keqing's Lightning Stiletto Attack be possibly looked at? It looks to me like she transforms into straight up lighting using it. Course, dunno if that even is relevant to other's, but...
 
well... although that just means that keqing has lightning speed through that specific attack, because I don't remember her ever occupying it outside of that.

of course if you think it's lightning speed in the first place
 
Only speed "feats" I can quickly recall are
1. Albedo dodging Amber's arrow centimeters to his face
2. Game description states Wanderer "Moved like Lightning itself " when he blocked the Shouki no Kami's beam that attack traveler ( Who this scales to is questionable)
3. That goofy scene were Kazuha traveled several meters before Raiden's blade could move centimeters
4. Dehya and Tighnari off screen dodging Scaramouche's Cloud to Ground lightning, Tighnari got nabbed though and the lightning wasn't strictly hitting people as the scene before shows the bolts striking the ground severally
5. Kazuha dodging an arrow in his Demo
6. Yelan using some guy attached to her string to block an arrow in her Demo.



There aren't really concrete visual feats to place them solidly at MHS like someone dodging a Lightning bolt or something so where they consistently scale to is questionable

There seems to be a lot going on with arrows in this verse
Do you have some of these clips linked to show to us? Also "moved like Lightning itself" means literally nothing and is just a metaphor. People IRL say precisely those words about Usain Bolt.

The Kazuha scene can't really be scaled to anything besides "Raiden Shogun didn't feel like she needed full speed to kill some fodder, so she threw the casualest of her attacks and someone who already used to be a strong Vision user got a second Vision and stacked two major speed buffs (from Wind and Lightning) to blink to her and parry her attack in a desperate move". In other words, it doesn't even scale to Kazuha and it scales to nobody other than maybe Traveler during the second fight against Raiden Shogun... while buffed. Which also doesn't scale back to Traveler.

Dodging Cloud to Ground lightning is only 200m/s feat at mid-end, with the low-end being as low as 25m/s and the highest end being 7000m/s. Without further information, it's impossible to extract anything but "Faster-than-eye+" from this. Which is already non-garbage, but that number 1 feat in which Albedo (a character who is not a major combatant and probably not far above Hilichurl tier, if above it at all in-lore) is already dangerously close to that, if not above it.

The Kazuha feat needs to be calced, but could give us some ideas. Yelan's feat as well. But really, the Albedo arrow dodge is great if we have an idea of where in the Genshin tiers is Albedo. My guess is he'd be a trained Vision user?

Reminder that the Genshin Impact tiers are: Hilichurls and untrained Vision users -> Trained Vision User -> Adepti/Harbingers -> Archons. So low, mid, high and top tiers.

I'm not a expert here, but, couldn't Keqing's Lightning Stiletto Attack be possibly looked at? It looks to me like she transforms into straight up lighting using it. Course, dunno if that even is relevant to other's, but...
That's not sufficient evidence of Keqing being lightning speed. She isn't getting conducted through wire nor does she literally become plasma, does she? She just "moves in a lightning-like way and really fast", which could just be a property of Lightning users being fast. Says nothing about genuinely being LIGHTNING fast. Let's be careful with potential hyperboles here: Usain Bolt has also been said to be "lightning-fast" in a non-literal sense.
 
Do you have some of these clips linked to show to us? Also "moved like Lightning itself" means literally nothing and is just a metaphor.
I don't see how that's a metaphor, comparing it "lightning quick/fast" doesn't do any favors and here's the clip




From his Character Story 6 explaining what happened

People IRL say precisely those words about Usain Bolt.

The Kazuha scene can't really be scaled to anything besides "Raiden Shogun didn't feel like she needed full speed to kill some fodder, so she threw the casualest of her attacks
Sorry to break it to you bud I was also bummed out when I found this out, but that "casualest of her attacks" attack was actually the Musou no Hitotachi the Travel's log summary actually calls it that
Which is already non-garbage, but that number 1 feat in which Albedo (a character who is not a major combatant and probably not far above Hilichurl tier, if above it at all in-lore) is already dangerously close to that, if not above it.
Putting Albedo in Hilichurl tier is a goofy thing to say ngl, considering he's fought Susbedo who could majorly pressure what was Liyue Traveler iirc and is confident that if he goes berserk he could destroy Mondstadt
He's also the greatest creation of the Alchemist Gold, who yunno, created During the dragon that battled Dvalin, she made the riftwolves and the Wolf lord, now I'm not saying he's Archon level💀🙏, I'm just trying to get at it makes no sense for someone with all these points backing him up to be around Hilichurl level, his character story also states he's learned in Martial arts whole journeying with Alice, so yeah he's comfortably Trained Vision user level
Gosh that sounds vague as shit
The Kazuha feat needs to be calced, but could give us some ideas.
Basic distance/time is all I got
Yelan's feat as well. But really, the Albedo arrow dodge is great if we have an idea of where in the Genshin tiers is Albedo. My guess is he'd be a trained Vision user?
Yeah
Reminder that the Genshin Impact tiers are: Hilichurls and untrained Vision users -> Trained Vision User -> Adepti/Harbingers -> Archons. So low, mid, high and top tiers.
Genshin powerscaling is a headache
That's not sufficient evidence of Keqing being lightning speed. She isn't getting conducted through wire nor does she literally become plasma, does she? She just "moves in a lightning-like way and really fast",
Her skill description doesn't even say anything relating to lightning, it just says she jumps to the stiletto location
 
I don't see how that's a metaphor, comparing it "lightning quick/fast" doesn't do any favors and here's the clip




From his Character Story 6 explaining what happened


"As he moved like lightning itself, a blazing light came between him and the Everlasting Lord of Arcane Wisdom, blocking its attack. His will and his choice had gained him the eye of the gods."
Is that the passage you mean? If so, he moves LIKE lightning. That seems pretty metaphorical and hyperbolic to me, not a literal statement that he was moving at hundreds or thousands of times the speed of sound. Just that he was really really fast and agile.
Sorry to break it to you bud I was also bummed out when I found this out, but that "casualest of her attacks" attack was actually the Musou no Hitotachi the Travel's log summary actually calls it that
...okay, fair enough, that means if he PARRIED THE MUSOU NO HITOTACHI he scaled to that in that brief moment. So... dual Vision wielding Kazuha had Archon-level speed for a fraction of a second and literally nobody else scales to that?
Putting Albedo in Hilichurl tier is a goofy thing to say ngl, considering he's fought Susbedo who could majorly pressure what was Liyue Traveler iirc and is confident that if he goes berserk he could destroy Mondstadt
He's also the greatest creation of the Alchemist Gold, who yunno, created During the dragon that battled Dvalin, she made the riftwolves and the Wolf lord, now I'm not saying he's Archon level💀🙏, I'm just trying to get at it makes no sense for someone with all these points backing him up to be around Hilichurl level, his character story also states he's learned in Martial arts whole journeying with Alice, so yeah he's comfortably Trained Vision user level
Gosh that sounds vague as shit
Yeah, mid-tier character.
Basic distance/time is all I got
How much do the feats amount to? I'm especially interested to Albedo's arrow dodging feat which should more or less scale to all trained Vision users.
Genshin powerscaling is a headache
It sure is lmfao
Her skill description doesn't even say anything relating to lightning, it just says she jumps to the stiletto location
No reason to believe it's true lightning speed, then.
 
If Albedo dodged an arrow (I'll use 50m/s as the speed for an average) when it was 50cm away by moving 1 meter, then he'd have moved at 100 m/s on a very short span of time. Either way, we need the distance the arrow was to him and how much he moved.

Nevermind, I found the cutscene.




I counted 12 frames from when Albedo starts dodging to when the arrow is passing by him without hitting him. In these 12 frames, Albedo moved half a head's length. Idk if the frame count is relevant since this likely isn't happening in real time as his movement speed is superhuman.

So now is the distance between the arrow and his head. How much seems reasonable? It feels like much less than 1 meter, but the angle does make it hard to judge.
 
Yes, I don't really agree with Calc low7-B and 7-B that are currently on the vesre page, especially Calc 7-B which assumes a radius that is longer than reality without enough evidence. And destroying bamboo should not exceed 6 psi, but in the calculation it is used up to 20 psi.

Moreover, in Calc low7-B, the calculation is based on gameplay animation, which does not have this level of feat in various scenes. It may be an outlier.

Additionally, the MHS+ speed on the current page is clearly aim dodging, She was just dash normally. We didn’t knowing the distance from the cloud to the ground clearly. Furthermore, the lighting touches the ground before Jean reaches a distance of 4.88 m.

Many calculations should be corrected or removed.
 
So we should nerf trained Vision users to Faster Than Eye, I think? That's the highest feat they got: seemingly less than half a Mach of arrow dodging shenanigans.
BTW, I must note that the character stated in-lore to have destroyed the Bamboo character is a historical figure, probably a high tier (on the level of Adepti and Harbingers), or am I wrong? So this wouldn't even scale to the mid-tiers, nevermind the low-tiers.


And as for destructive power...? Idk what feats we have on AP/DC. In-game character ults seem like they hardly go beyond 9-A.
 
We have listed a lot of feats here. Next I guess would be to look into the ults and skills of several characters and see their effects as I'm sure SOMETHING should be helpful. For example, Kaeya freezing a bunch of water in front of him, also other Cryo characters can freeze a whole radius of water around them thick enough to run and fight on top of. Geo Traveler alone already can create a block of solid rock more than their body's height and wingspan in size. Also everyone can tank explosive barrels pretty well and these are vicious explosions.

We kinda need to calculate all the generic stuff that we know for a fact the characters can do and tank.
 
Thank god someone got to this before me.

So my two cents are mostly that elemental power should scale to AP and Durability due to the way it works in-verse with elemental power directly scaling to shields and whatnot. Shenhe and her feats are an outlier even among Vision wielders as she was able to fight an injured Beisht, who could more or less injure a post-Inazuma traveler.

As for feats, I suggest taking a look at the fight between the Traveler and Imposter Albedo, as Bennett was able to melt a relatively large ice sculpture rather quickly. There is also the destruction of in-game structures to account for. Also, Itto's ability to smack a relatively large falling rock. I'll try to list more as I go but I more or less agree with the premise of this CRT and would like to contribute.
 
Also everyone can tank explosive barrels pretty well and these are vicious explosions.
Never happened in a cutscene, not valid for just anyone

Bennett instantly melting all of Susbedo's Ice with his burst could be calced
Itto punching a rock a rock like Naito said and Traveler slashing Ice that was going to hit Wanderer could also be calced, but he used like 4 slashes there so eh

Shouki no Kami does have an on-screen feat of shattering the top of the stage Traveler somehow managed to withstand the squash and the stage crumbled

There's also Power Range Childe's feat of shattering the Golden House floor

All in all these feats are pretty much tier 8
 
Just gonna throw in some more suggestions: slimes are used to create explosive barrels, so if you can calc the size of their explosions/frozen water you can also get a decent baseline for fodder mobs, though I guess that depends if regular slimes actually scale to the overall elemental energy they contain. Furthermore, there are more destruction feats in stuff like hangouts, like Noelle breaking down a stone wall.

Also there's the lazy route of doing Electro feats given you can probably approximate the amount of energy needed for various things that need electro, and also Lightning feats for characters that get hit by those, which would be an easy 9-A+.
 
Agree with the premise of the CRT, but i will say that the cloud that Razor create is somewhat legit, whether it scale or not is upto you guys.

Reason being that his teacher, Lisa, does in fact create dark cloud when she use her skill as it was stated that she make the sky dark when she use her power (Razor about Lisa), so if anything, it atleast should scale to Lisa.

Edit: i'm pretty sure there's also another npc in Mondstadt that talk about how when Lisa is angry, the sky darken, if i can i'll try to find it if someone else don't already. Also the 7B could still be recycled if we adjust it abit, would scale to low tier adepti like Ganyu and people who scale to her.
 
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I mean at best that'd be low 7-B Environmental Destruction, and not scale to AP given we've zero indication their AP matches.
 
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However, the calculation of low7-B is still incorrect due to the unresolved issue of the standardization of cloud mass for the new calculation method. Low7-B still needs to be fixed.
 
Never happened in a cutscene, not valid for just anyone
Should scale to Trained Vision Users, though, since Hilichurls die to these barrels but every other enemy and the players can survive it. I think it should at least be calced and give us a baseline of durability.

There's also Power Range Childe's feat of shattering the Golden House floor

All in all these feats are pretty much tier 8
Don't forget that Childe is at the lower end of Harbinger tier, which is high tier for this setting, and the protagonist was struggling against base Childe and barely survived his Electro Delusion. But yeah, I won't be surprised if people on the higher end of Trained Vision Users are tier 8, whereas I think the early end of that tier might end up being 9-A.

Still, even 8-B is already FAR more reasonable than that nuclear tier nonsense that was making me question why wasn't Teyvat shrouded in nuclear winter in the first occasion of Paimonial Wrath.
 
Should scale to Trained Vision Users, though, since Hilichurls die to these barrels
In gameplay or lore?, They don't even die to the barrels in a Lvl 8 world and it's purely game mechanics, dependent on HP, DEF and Elemental Res.
Unless anyone actually scales to it in lore, it's not usable
but every other enemy and the players can survive it. I think it should at least be calced and give us a baseline of durability.
^
Teyvat shrouded in nuclear winter in the first occasion of Paimonial Wrath.
What paimonial wrath?
 
In gameplay or lore?, They don't even die to the barrels in a Lvl 8 world and it's purely game mechanics, dependent on HP, DEF and Elemental Res.
Unless anyone actually scales to it in lore, it's not usable

^

What paimonial wrath?
Hmm, fair enough.
Paimonial Wrath is a scene of Paimon getting mad and saying she'll deliver some Paimonial Wrath. xD I'm pretty sure Paimon has feats that would downscale her by not too far from weaker Vision users or mobs, which on the currently registered stats would have given her nuclear tier attack and defense.
 
Hmm, fair enough.
Paimonial Wrath is a scene of Paimon getting mad and saying she'll deliver some Paimonial Wrath. xD I'm pretty sure Paimon has feats that would downscale her by not too far from weaker Vision users or mobs, which on the currently registered stats would have given her nuclear tier attack and defense.
Which feats?
 
Okay, I tried to find something but I might be talking out of my ass. I could swear I'd find somewhere someone at least kicking Paimon or hitting her away or something.

Anyways, do we have anyone willing to calc some feats? And some feats to calc besides the arrow dodged by Albedo.
 
Speed is less result than expected. I think it's better to find a speed feat from another feat.
 
Trying to think of another speed feat... There is Yelan doing a similar feat of being able to react to a crossbow and then using a guy she lasso'd to block it.
 
This looks good, but what Destruction value did you use, Frag or V. frag?
Speed is less result than expected. I think it's better to find a speed feat from another feat.
Not surprising from my perspective it's just and arrow dodging feat and it's a slight head tilt, well if you need others
There's Yelan's Demo
There's Kazuha's Demo
There's this where Shenhe nabs Traveler out of the air, we can do a simple D/T for this might be good, or not


There's also Scaramouche shattering the top floor in the first phase of his battle and the mediocre crater cause by his Lightning Kamehameha can likely be calced too
 
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