Shirou Emiya(F/SN) VS Subaru Natsuki

[Zhaoshuais]

This time I bring in an opponent which Kamijou Touma can beat handily´╝îbut really hard for others.

Both sides at best condition.

It's clear that the only possible way for Shirou Emiya to kill Subaru Natsuki is Rule Breaker,but it's almost impossible for him to know that,as only Subaru Natsuki knows his resurrection.

In fact,after countless attempts and deaths,I believe Subaru may even find way to defeat a lot of servants.

 

[Zhaoshuais]

And I believe that Returns by Death is underestimated,if it can not be prevented,Subaru can attempt infinity times to find out any possible weakness of opponents,and only need to find one chance.

This would be better than Kurumi,as she can only "load game" by herself,but can not do that automatically when she dies.

I should point out that Haruhi Suzumiya should also have this ability,so please remove "glass canon" label.

 

[Gemmysaur]

Victory conditions:

Death, BFR, permanent incapacitation. For BFR a character has lost if he can not return in one month. Permanent incapacitation is reached if the opponent ends up in a state in which he can not harm the other fighter for a month, without the other fighter actively participating in keeping him like that.

Won't this mean Return by Death is useless? Since death is a means to win, and Subaru actually dies before RbD activates.

 

[Zhaoshuais]

Victory conditions:
Death, BFR, permanent incapacitation. For BFR a character has lost if he can not return in one month. Permanent incapacitation is reached if the opponent ends up in a state in which he can not harm the other fighter for a month, without the other fighter actively participating in keeping him like that.

Won't this mean Return by Death is useless? Since death is a means to win, and Subaru actually dies before RbD activates.

Of course for Subaru,only death and can not resurrect again means real defeat.

Otherwise it's too simple to defeat him.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

So shirou is wall level but has like attacks that go up to mountain level and not to mention is HS+ with HHS reactions, how is this not a stomp? RBD is irrrelevant if subaru can't keep up with opponents and there is a massive discrepancy in ability.

Also subaru never solves anything by himself, he always needs help from his friends to resolve problems, outside help isn't allowed in vs matches so no matter how many times he respawns he won't beat people above his level.

 

[Fabtastic_Glasses]

Nah, Subaru isn't beating any Servant anytime soon. Maybe he has some chance in the future if he obtain some big powerups, but not now

 

[Zhaoshuais]

So shirou is wall level but has like attacks that go up to mountain level and not to mention is HS+ with HHS reactions, how is this not a stomp? RBD is irrrelevant if subaru can't keep up with opponents and there is a massive discrepancy in ability.
Also subaru never solves anything by himself, he always needs help from his friends to resolve problems, outside help isn't allowed in vs matches so no matter ho many times he respawns he won't beat people above his level.

That's wrong,you should consider Angra Mainyu´╝îhe as also weak than opponents,but with enough attempts he can finally find a way to win.

Sometimes there are more important thing than speed and reaction.In fact,Tier 2 or even higher can also have regular human speed or reaction,but that does not means they can be stomped easily,as I always tell everyone does not consider Haruhi as glass cannon.

 

[Fabtastic_Glasses]

Avenger is still massively faster by significant margin compared to Subaru. And although his Tawrich and Zurich aren't something really special, hes still capable of parrying some of Saber's blow for some time. And after that fight, he even effortlessly kills Shirou. Do note that even the weakest of Servant is still way above humans

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

@Zhaoshuais Subaru isn't particularly smart, he is about average in intelligence, he has over a period of time learned to be wary of certain things and gained a sort of sense for danger, but the thing is he has realized that even though he can return from death he is weak, he is practically fodder in the verse. Anyone relevant can beat him, he can't take them in a straight up fight, of course there exists what if chapters where he goes evil and uses dirty methods to kill ppl above him like with poison, and even still after thousands of tries couldn't kill reinhard. The author has stated that is reinhard would be the most dangerous if he went evil, and subaru would never be able to beat him no matter how many times he tried. Also that whole thing where if subaru tells anyone about his ability their heart pops doesn't work on reinhard, subaru's heart would be the one to pop instead.

Anyway the point is just cause he can resurrect, doesn't mean he can beat those above his level, there is no way he is beating someone who is like what 10x faster than him and can one shot him, no matter how many times he respwans, unless he goes through some extensive prep and using cheap tactics like posion or something. In story he never beats anyone particulaly strong or overcome the major threats on his own, he needs help from his friends.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

@Zhau Because Angra Mainya (Avenger) is actually at least partially comparable to a servant, and not completely out of their league like Subaru and everyone else in Re:Zero not in top-god tier (and even some of their top tiers still get killed by servants)

This fight goes like this: Subaru dies over and over and over without a hope of victory against Emiya until he finally just has another mental breakdown for month, giving Emiya the win via incap. Or after various repetitions Emiya just knocks him out for an hour.

 

[Zhaoshuais]

Avenger is still massively faster by significant margin compared to Subaru. And although his Tawrich and Zurich aren't something really special, hes still capable of parrying some of Saber's blow for some time. And after that fight, he even effortlessly kills Shirou. Do note that even the weakest of Servant is still way above humans

Subaru also has some magic which can cause trouble,especially EMM and EMT,at least he should have chance to defeat Caster,as with EMT he can ban magic for a while and absorb a hit with EMM.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

Neither of those abilities can do anything to stop Shirou permanently, and if Shirou projects a sword before EMT happens, Subaru is still going to get diced the moment EMM runs out

 

[Fabtastic_Glasses]

And then what ? Most Caster are still above him physically anyway. By simple scaling, they're still above Avenger whos enough to defeat Subaru

 

[Zhaoshuais]

@Zhau Because Angra Mainya (Avenger) is actually at least partially comparable to a servant, and not completely out of their league like Subaru and everyone else in Re:Zero not in top-god tier (and even some of their top tiers still get killed by servants)
This fight goes like this: Subaru dies over and over and over without a hope of victory against Emiya until he finally just has another mental breakdown for month, giving Emiya the win via incap. Or after various repetitions Emiya just knocks him out for an hour.

You ignored the possibility that Subaru use time stop Authority. With such defeats he would attempt everything he has,and he has enough chance to master it.Then he can finally overcome speed problem.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

Those magics require a ton of mana which subaru doesn't have so they only last for like a few seconds, he can't move when he uses emm and really emt would probably be bad for him since while it negates magic, ppl who fight physically will have no issues getting around it since it doesn't affect physical stats, and again doesn't last long.

 

[Fabtastic_Glasses]

Speculations. You got anything other than that ? Because if we're gonna use speculations on both sides, Subaru is still getting stomped nonetheless

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

And subaru has never used authority of greed and judging by how when compared to betelguese who could use like dozens of unseen hands while he can only use one, authority of greed wouldn't be any different, he wouldn't be able to use it right, probably why he hasn't used it so far.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

Time Stop authority he has never used before, likely cannot use it to the level of the original user, and his heart stops when he uses it so he'll die if he uses it too long or too repetitively. Meanwhile, Shirou can just keep slashing or bladespamming.

 

[Zhaoshuais]

@Zhaoshuais Subaru isn't particularly smart, he is about average in intelligence, he has over a period of time learned to be wary of certain things and gained a sort of sense for danger, but the thing is he has realized that even though he can return from death he is weak, he is practically fodder in the verse. Anyone relevant can beat him, he can't take them in a straight up fight, of course there exists what if chapters where he goes evil and uses dirty methods to kill ppl above him like with poison, and even still after thousands of tries couldn't kill reinhard. The author has stated that is reinhard would be the most dangerous if he went evil, and subaru would never be able to beat him no matter how many times he tried. Also that whole thing where if subaru tells anyone about his ability their heart pops doesn't work on reinhard, subaru's heart would be the one to pop instead.
Anyway the point is just cause he can resurrect, doesn't mean he can beat those above his level, there is no way he is beating someone who is like what 10x faster than him and can one shot him, no matter how many times he respwans, unless he goes through some extensive prep and using cheap tactics like posion or something. In story he never beats anyone particulaly strong or overcome the major threats on his own, he needs help from his friends.

Touma suffered similar situation,but overcome all the difficulty,of course,may attempted billion times.

 

[Fabtastic_Glasses]

Touma has his reaction speed to compensate and his power is a literal counter to almost everyting in his verse. Subaru is not the same. FFS stop being so salty about it. Just accept that Subaru is just a fodder trash tier even in his own verse and pitting him against someone from other verse still has low chance of him actually winning. Bringing other characters from another verse won't help you, all it does is just further destroy your line of arguments

 

[Zhaoshuais]

Time Stop authority he has never used before, likely cannot use it to the level of the original user, and his heart stops when he uses it so he'll die if he uses it too long or too repetitively. Meanwhile, Shirou can just keep slashing or bladespamming.

But with EMM,EMT,Time stop and unseen hands,it's possible that after enough attempts,he knows exactly how opponents will attack and where can evade,then place his limited skills at the only right place to break through.

 

[Fabtastic_Glasses]

Speculations again ? Are even trying at this point ? Oi Pegasus, you can just lock this shitpost of an attempt of a thread to end this dude's misery

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

@Zhao Have you seen re zero? If you haven't noticed the show makes it a point to show how weak subaru is and how he can't accomplish anything on his own, he literally gets a mental breakdown from that. Yes being the mc subaru will inevitably find a path with rbd that is good, but again the show makes it a point to show subaru how weak he is, all those times he overcomes something he never does it alone, once he accepted that, he gave up trying to solve things on his own when he is weak. A normal subaru won't abuse the living crap out of rbd to find a way to win, i mean that was one of literal plot points of arc 4, for him to not do that and value himself, if you think subaru is gonna keep using rbd to find a way to win by himself, it's not happening unless we are talking about dark lord subaru here, and even then he still can't beat ppl out of his league in terms of ap and speed without extensive prep and dying a lot and with outside help.

 

[Zhaoshuais]

Touma has his reaction speed to compensate and his power is a literal counter to almost everyting in his verse. Subaru is not the same. FFS stop being so salty about it. Just accept that Subaru is just a fodder trash tier even in his own verse and pitting him against someone from other verse still has low chance of him actually winning. Bringing other characters from another verse won't help you, all it does is just further destroy your line of arguments

But Subaru's opponents do not know his ability,and would repeat same action again and again,which give Subaru"prediction" to overcome speed disadvantage.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

But with EMM,EMT,Time stop and unseen hands,it's possible that after enough attempts,he knows exactly how opponents will attack and where can evade,then place his limited skills at the only right place to break through.

Not before he has another mental breakdown. And seeing as the smallest detail he changes could also change Shirou's entire plan, he is extremely unlikely to manage to work out every possible combination and permutation of actions Shirou could take before having that mental breakdow. Or a few hundred of mental breakdowns. And if he does last past all that to find the exact action that Shirou will take in every possible circumstance, here is what he is going to find:

Unseen hand = shirou bladespams with mountain level attacks

EMM - barely lasts a second, then gone. Negates about one sword slash and that's it.

EMT - barely lasts a second, then gone. And Shirou is a melee fighter anyway.

Time Stop - stops his heart and probably only lasts as long as EMM/EMT,

 

[Fabtastic_Glasses]

Still doesn't change the fact that they're above him to the point all his abilities will just become a moot point. All he can do is just constantly dying without being able to change anything. In Servants' case, literally every Servants shitstomped him. In Shirou's case, EMT won't affect Traced weapons, EMM render Subaru himself unable to move, unseen hand is irrelevant considering sensing invisible ***** is something that literally every Magus can do, and he never use Authority and thus its unknown to what degree he can use it (considering how shitty he is at using unseen hand, Authority will most likely be as shitty anyway)

FFS, just deal with it

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

But Subaru's opponents do not know his ability,and would repeat same action again and again,which give Subaru"prediction" to overcome speed disadvantage.

Subaru's opponents are not going to attempt the same thing without taking into account Subaru's own actions.

1. Subara fights = subaru dies

2. Subaru comes back, and know what to do to, like dodge to the left 3 seconds into the fight or something. Shirou sees him dodge left and stabs him with more swords

3. Repeat ad infinium

 

[Zhaoshuais]

@Zhao Have you seen re zero? If you haven't noticed the show makes it a point to show how weak subaru is and how he can't accomplish anything on his own, he literally gets a mental breakdown from that. Yes being the mc subaru will inevitably find a path with rbd that is good, but again the show makes it a point to show subaru how weak he is, all those times he overcomes something he never does it alone, once he accepted that, he gave up trying to solve things on his own when he is weak. A normal subaru won't abuse the living crap out of rbd to find a way to win, i mean that was one of literal plot points of arc 4, for him to not do that and value himself, if you think subaru is gonna keep using rbd to find a way to win by himself, it's not happening unless we are talking about dark lord subaru here, and even then he still can't beat ppl out of his league in terms of ap and speed without extensive prep and dying a lot and with outside help.

I know that,but in fact,Returns by Death can achieve that.Opponents do not know,and would repeat same action,so speed advantage gradully become nothing.Otherwise I would not open this thread at all.

 

[Fabtastic_Glasses]

You making this thread is a mistake in the first place. Its a clear mismatch ffs. And by the looks of it, you don't even know both combatants here. Which further makes this thread even more useless

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

Opponents do not know,and would repeat same actio,so speed advantage gradully become nothing.

No. No they wouldn't.

And a significant enough speed advantage will never become nothing thanks to "knowing what they will do"

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

@Zhao You are arguing for something subaru literally never does in character and was literally a plot point in arc 4, that he won't abuse ability, yea he dies and learns stuff but he won't intentionally kill himself to learn info and he won't try to assassin someone or anything like that. And even with rbd he won't be able to see someone who is like 10x faster than him, he will get one shot every time. Think this has gone on long enough, closing.