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They are both genius, and quite similar
How boring.
『ÒÇÇÒÇÇ』
How boring.
『ÒÇÇÒÇÇ』
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Shiro VS Izuru Kamukura (In a game of chess)
- Thread starter The_Foolish_Omniscient_Guy
- Start date
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.... Implying Izuru ... Is smarter than the literal God of Games and Strategy .
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Has Izuru done anything akin to outsmarting Tet, who outsmarted quite a few Gods, each of them being responsible for a country, and some even greater than that. Don't assume outsmarting Junko is a "impossible" thing, i am honestly sure both Sora nad Shiro could... Given they outsmarted Jibril .
In fact, i'll go a step further and say they would have likely have survived the killing game , due to their charisma alone. I know that's random .
In fact, i'll go a step further and say they would have likely have survived the killing game , due to their charisma alone. I know that's random .
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Izuru is a genius in all ways, Shiro is a genius at logic and problems, and don't forget that Izuru have Precognition, Clairvoyance and extreme luck, I know that Jibril have precognition too but she does not has clairvoyance and Shiro have a terrible weakness that unpredictable moves can unsettle and confuse her, I'm pretty sure that Izuru can obtain advantage from that, his problem is that he does not care about almost anything.The 2nd Existential Seed said:
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I do see Izuru winning though. IF he actually does things... But I firmly believe it won't be a curbstomp or something similar.
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1-0 for izuru
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I'm putting my vote towards Shiro. Having knowledge of every board state in Chess and picking moves that only lead to a winning board state is just something that can't be beaten. If there were two beings with perfect knowledge of Chees then whoever goes first would win or tie.
While Izuru does have broader knowledge, being able to get a read on your opponent and predict your moves isn't an advantage if the other person has memorized every single move you could possibly make and knows how to win no matter what you do.
Simply by the nature of Chees, Shiro is guaranteed to win or tie by moving first. And even if she went second, and even if Izuru had the knowledge of Chess grandmasters, Shiro still canonically stomps chess grandmasters when going second.
While Shiro was put off by someone making an odd move in the first episode, it's unclear whether her reacting to that by herself would have led to a loss, and it's also unclear whether her progression into being more independent later in the series would let her remain calm in that situation.
While Izuru does have broader knowledge, being able to get a read on your opponent and predict your moves isn't an advantage if the other person has memorized every single move you could possibly make and knows how to win no matter what you do.
Simply by the nature of Chees, Shiro is guaranteed to win or tie by moving first. And even if she went second, and even if Izuru had the knowledge of Chess grandmasters, Shiro still canonically stomps chess grandmasters when going second.
While Shiro was put off by someone making an odd move in the first episode, it's unclear whether her reacting to that by herself would have led to a loss, and it's also unclear whether her progression into being more independent later in the series would let her remain calm in that situation.
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so
2 for Shiro
0 for izuru?
2 for Shiro
0 for izuru?
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- Thread starter
- #15
2 for shiro
0 for izuru
1 inconclusive
0 for izuru
1 inconclusive
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Lasatar said:
I'm going for Shiro since at worst she'd tie, but this is would happen only if Izuru could also memorize every move in chess, or otherwise pick the most optimal move at every step along the way, to a degree where he's better than the best chess players in the world.
From what I know about him, I kind of doubt that he could do that.
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The Cyberman from Nightmare in Silver solos.
He can legit win a game of chess in two turns, fewer moves than it would possibly take to win a game.
He can legit win a game of chess in two turns, fewer moves than it would possibly take to win a game.
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"fewer moves than it would possibly take to win a game." It actually is possible to checkmate in two moves
Obviously, Shiro would make a different move depending on what Izuru's move is, so the only way I see Izuru using precognition to pull a win would be if he could look into every possible future of what move he could make and how Shiro would respond, and pick out the few outcomes out of every possible chess game where it's a tie.
I think this number would be on the order of 10^60 possibilities to sort through (number of possible games of Chess has a lower bound of 10^120, but Shiro would be picking the best option, so only one player's choices would contribute to that number bringing it to 10^60).
While the number could be lower, that would rely on Izuru knowing not to use his precognition on certain trees of moves, and I kind of doubt that he'd know for certain that a certain move couldn't lead to a draw until he's already largely gone through that tree of possibility.
Would these 10^60 possibilities be reasonable for him to go through, both time-wise and mentally?
I'm not too sure how useful precognition would be here.Therefir said:
Obviously, Shiro would make a different move depending on what Izuru's move is, so the only way I see Izuru using precognition to pull a win would be if he could look into every possible future of what move he could make and how Shiro would respond, and pick out the few outcomes out of every possible chess game where it's a tie.
I think this number would be on the order of 10^60 possibilities to sort through (number of possible games of Chess has a lower bound of 10^120, but Shiro would be picking the best option, so only one player's choices would contribute to that number bringing it to 10^60).
While the number could be lower, that would rely on Izuru knowing not to use his precognition on certain trees of moves, and I kind of doubt that he'd know for certain that a certain move couldn't lead to a draw until he's already largely gone through that tree of possibility.
Would these 10^60 possibilities be reasonable for him to go through, both time-wise and mentally?
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The thing is that precognition > memorizing every board position. Shiro can't read his mind; she uses logical reasoning to predict moves. This is the prder it will go every move: Shiro predicts Izuru's move, then he counters it with his precognition. Precognition completely overpowers her reasoning because it completely sees through her. Even if she figures out that he has precognition, she can't do anything about it since Izuru's precognition will still tell him what she will do. In a game of logic, precognition is the most broken ability you can have. Combine that with his higher general intelligence, and it's a wrap.
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Incorrect, memorizing every board position > precognition whenever it's a game of perfect information.
Shiro can pick moves such that NO MATTER WHAT Izuru does, she will always win. Because she knows every final boardstate.
In turn-based games of perfect information, the first player can never lose. Now while that may make this inconclusive (it's not known if the first player would win or tie in chess, it's currently an open problem), I kind of doubt that Izuru would have make the perfect move at every step of the game to avoid a draw/loss 50 turns down the line. Granted, that's because I'm just going off of his profile, but I'm not sure how good he is at chess, and considering that Shiro walks over the world best at chess alternating going first and second, I think she could beat Izuru even going second.
You're thinking of this like "Shiro uses her expertise to predict Izuru's move, Izuru uses his precog to predict Shiro's moves", while I think it would go down as "Shiro picks a move so that she wins no matter what Izuru does, Izuru uses his precog to figure out that he can't win and tries to pick moves to throw her off her game, these odd moves put Shiro in an even stronger winning position, leading to her eventual win."
"Higher general intelligence" I'm not sure how that's relevant, this thread's about a chess game.
Shiro can pick moves such that NO MATTER WHAT Izuru does, she will always win. Because she knows every final boardstate.
In turn-based games of perfect information, the first player can never lose. Now while that may make this inconclusive (it's not known if the first player would win or tie in chess, it's currently an open problem), I kind of doubt that Izuru would have make the perfect move at every step of the game to avoid a draw/loss 50 turns down the line. Granted, that's because I'm just going off of his profile, but I'm not sure how good he is at chess, and considering that Shiro walks over the world best at chess alternating going first and second, I think she could beat Izuru even going second.
You're thinking of this like "Shiro uses her expertise to predict Izuru's move, Izuru uses his precog to predict Shiro's moves", while I think it would go down as "Shiro picks a move so that she wins no matter what Izuru does, Izuru uses his precog to figure out that he can't win and tries to pick moves to throw her off her game, these odd moves put Shiro in an even stronger winning position, leading to her eventual win."
"Higher general intelligence" I'm not sure how that's relevant, this thread's about a chess game.
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What part of that is NLF?
Do you want me to link the part where she stomps a computer alternating black and white, a computer which stomps grandmasters?
Do you want me to link the part where it's described that she's memorized all board states in chess?
Do you want me to link you the mathematical theorem showing that in any game with perfect information, the first player can't lose if they play optimally?
Do you want me to link the part where she stomps a computer alternating black and white, a computer which stomps grandmasters?
Do you want me to link the part where it's described that she's memorized all board states in chess?
Do you want me to link you the mathematical theorem showing that in any game with perfect information, the first player can't lose if they play optimally?
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FDrybob said:
I would say that, but I'm not sure if Izuru Kamukura has been demonstrated to have far above grandmaster level chess skills.
Because Shiro has shown to walk over a computer which walks over grandmasters, even when she's going second.
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Izuru has all talent that exist so why not chess player,and i'm sure he also know all possibilities of move in chess game, Izuru is comparable to a computer, the only difference is that he is human. For me, it is very hard to tell who would win
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"Izuru has all talent that exist" Doesn't he only have talents of those that attended the academy?
"And I'm sure he also know all posibilities of move in chess game" knowing 10^120 board states is pretty NLF.
"Izuru is comparable to a computer, the only difference is that he is human." And Shiro stomped a computer (20 wins in a row, 10 as white, 10 as black).
"And I'm sure he also know all posibilities of move in chess game" knowing 10^120 board states is pretty NLF.
"Izuru is comparable to a computer, the only difference is that he is human." And Shiro stomped a computer (20 wins in a row, 10 as white, 10 as black).
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I'm not entirely sure how Izuru's talent works. His profile claims that he has the talents of every student that ever attended Hope's Peak, but Danganronpa 2 literally states that he "specializes in talent", implying that he is talented at everything. Plus, talents seem to give students superhuman abilities, so I could totally see an Ultimate Chess Player memorizing every board combination. It certainly would not be as rediculous as some of the other talents that he has. Combine that with a talent he is confirmed to have, his Ultimate Analyst talent, and this is pretty Inconclusive.
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@FDrybob
idk dude, that sounds kind of like an NLF to me. "Talents sometimes give people superhuman abilities, so he can memorize 10^120 board positions."
Does he have any sort of feats on the scale of holding 10^120 items of information in his mind?
idk dude, that sounds kind of like an NLF to me. "Talents sometimes give people superhuman abilities, so he can memorize 10^120 board positions."
Does he have any sort of feats on the scale of holding 10^120 items of information in his mind?
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I don't have any proof (hence why Inconclusive), but given the nature of other talents, I would not be surprised. For example: being able to learn everything about someone and know exactly what they will do to the point that it's basically precognition (Ultimate Analyst), having enough luck to somehow destroy a building with a single unaimed bullet (Ultimate Luck), and being skilled enough to effortlessly slap aside some of the most skilled talent-weilding fighters in the world (Ultimate Fighter, Ultimate Soldier, etc.). I know it's a NLF, but I'm just saying that it would make sense if it was true.
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Izuru will know which moves will be benificial to him and not beneficial to Shiro, due to ultimate clarivoiance and ultimate analysis. Even if he doesn't quite know the best move, his ultimate luck will ensure that he does it anyway. Shiro, on the other hand, will always know what move is the best, regardless of the board state.
That means that both of them will be making the best possible move every turn. An inconclusive match if I ever saw one. Whoever moves first will have the advantage, however.
That means that both of them will be making the best possible move every turn. An inconclusive match if I ever saw one. Whoever moves first will have the advantage, however.
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inconclusive for reasons above.
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I'll go for inconclusive then, it makes 7 inconclusive, this can be FINALLY added
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it should be as long as specifiedTherefir said:
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Guys, you people REALLY think analytical skills and precog are everything involved here? Let's talk about the history of Chess, DEEP BLUE, the powerful A.I who could read around sixteen thousand possibilities of moves ahead and choose the best out of them all. This is what top-notch, superhuman and maybe alike to supernatural human anayltical abilities should do in a Chess game. This computer lost to the human who challenged it once, and only won the "best of three matches" by a hair's width.
This is what precognition created by perfect analytical skills will do. Now we have luck, eh? And we have a human brain instead of a computer, meaning, sure, that more than that will be done on their favor...
...and then we have the fact Shiro has DEALT with that kind of A.I that surpasses deep blue, and is implied to be able to defeat them alone, due to the mere fact she has memorized the 10^120 possibilities of a chessboard.
Okay, am I wanking Shiro? I don't think so, I think you guys are exaggerating things here: Shiro has shown to only need her brother's help when they are challenged by someone who will not merely be on her same level in terms of intellect and skills at chess, but also attempt to deceive. The problem is: to be able to deceive Shiro one first needs to know Chess at an extent similar to her own, which they don't. The only beings shown to match her on skills at chess are actual deities of games and even then 『ÒÇÇÒÇÇ』will win if they are together. I don't think a person who hasn't shown to take games nearly as seriously as 『ÒÇÇÒÇÇ』 stands the slightest chance just because they've got raw intellect never applied to that and extreme luck on a game where it doesn't play a part and should still get itself severely weakened even if such luck is a supernatural force.
I don't see how can Junko's reincarnation beat Shiro without NLF.
This is what precognition created by perfect analytical skills will do. Now we have luck, eh? And we have a human brain instead of a computer, meaning, sure, that more than that will be done on their favor...
...and then we have the fact Shiro has DEALT with that kind of A.I that surpasses deep blue, and is implied to be able to defeat them alone, due to the mere fact she has memorized the 10^120 possibilities of a chessboard.
Okay, am I wanking Shiro? I don't think so, I think you guys are exaggerating things here: Shiro has shown to only need her brother's help when they are challenged by someone who will not merely be on her same level in terms of intellect and skills at chess, but also attempt to deceive. The problem is: to be able to deceive Shiro one first needs to know Chess at an extent similar to her own, which they don't. The only beings shown to match her on skills at chess are actual deities of games and even then 『ÒÇÇÒÇÇ』will win if they are together. I don't think a person who hasn't shown to take games nearly as seriously as 『ÒÇÇÒÇÇ』 stands the slightest chance just because they've got raw intellect never applied to that and extreme luck on a game where it doesn't play a part and should still get itself severely weakened even if such luck is a supernatural force.
I don't see how can Junko's reincarnation beat Shiro without NLF.
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TL;DR: Junko/Izuru may be smart and all, but they have no reason to stand a chance against someone who has been implied to be mathematically impossible to see defeat at chess unless up against a god of games. Izuru may be smart, but it's not a games oriented person to apply all of that intellect to games and be on equal footing. Meruem would have been a better match.
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