Shinza Banshou Downgrade

[Infera28]

Methuselah and Reinhard Downgrade

We gave Methuselah's durablity 3-A because we believed him to be composed of novemdecillion nights, and each night is half the size of earth and has the same density

But in reality, those nights contain "only half the darkness of the earth", because Methuselah is concept of darkness.

It was said in the story that Methuselah has a lot of density, but it was never said that this means that his nights have half the density of the earth. In fact, he has only high durability / density due to having many nights and arcane magic, but it was never said that this means that every night contains half the density of the planet, and this is illogical because, as I said, he is the only concept of darkness and he has half the darkness of the earth.

So he's not 5-A either, because the only reason the Jaws of Darkness were 5-A was because they consisted of 100 nights.

Now it has been said that Methuselah can crumble the earth by removing his darkness, but this is only some very specfic and contidional hax and is created by removing his darkness from regions where it is far too early for morning to come and turning them into an emptiness where neither light nor shadow reigned. I do not think we can even use the 5B through hax because this hax is highly dependent on the situation and specfic conditions.

And 3-A Reinhard was only scaled to Methuselah 3-A durability, so we have to remove 3-A Reinhard as well.

For new verse tiers we have to do some calculations

It was said that Gladsheim could reduce a country to ash and it was only a test of power, Gladsheim scales to Reinhard and Methuselah. We should calculate this feat but for now we can give it 6-B or 6-B+. Because it was only a test of power and even couldn't really damage Gladsheim and destroy one single soul of Gladsheim.

It was also said that Gladsheim energy was comparable to the most historic earthquakes in history, and that Gladsheim made this energy just by running. The strongest earthquake in history Valdivia Earthquake had a magnitude of 9.4-9.5. It is 6-B+ and consistent with last one.

Nvm valdivia earthquake happened in 1960 while the Interview with Kaziklu Bey happened around world war II so we can't scale Gladsheim's earthquake to valdivia earthquake but we can scale Gladsheim's earthquake to 1585 Aleutian Islands earthquake (Magnitude 9.25), 1730 Valparaíso earthquake (Magnitude 9.1-9.3), 1737 Kamchatka earthquake (Magnitude 9-9.3), still making Reinhard and Methuselah At least 6-B+, likely far higher. Because their power is much higher than that earthquake feat.

It was said that Methuselah darkened the sky, and it was a sign of a calamity, like a tsunami that could sink a entire continent, but that was cleary just a theory and vague. Because it said that sign of a calamity, "like" a tsunami. But no one knew what was really going to happen. Although maybe we should calculate this too?

So for now we can give Methuselah at least, 6-B+, likely far higher

Reinhard will be at least 6-B+, likely far higher too

Yatsukahagi and Eastern Expedition Downgrade

We have to change Tenma Ootake and Tenma Sukuna to High 6-B+, Because Reinhard isn't 3-A anymore and they are stronger than High 6-B+ Tenma Akuro and Tenma Morei. Their profile states that they are as powerful as Reinhard, but no evidence other than a link to a japanese wiki has been given. If you can prove that, then we can change Reinhard and Methuselah to High 6-B+ too.

We should change following characters Tenma Momiji, Tenma Numahime, Ryuusui Mikado, Soujirou Mibu, Shiori Kujou, Keishirou Kyougetsu, Sakuya Kyougetsu, Ryuumei Mikado to Low 7-B, likely higher. Because they are stronger than their previous incarnations and their previous incarnations were downgraded to Low 7-B, likely higher.

I'm not sure about Yakou Madara but he should also be changed to Low 7-B, likely higher i guess. Unless someone can prove that Tenma Ootake, Tenma Sukuna, Reinhard and Yakou Madara are as powerful as each other.

Ren Fuji and Valerian Trifa Downgrade

Ren Fuji is still mistakenly 5-A and we have to change it to At least 7-A, likely higher

And we have to change 3-A Ren Fuji to at least 6-B+, likely far higher too, because he scales to Reinhard.

And we have to change Valerian Trifa's durability to at least 6-B+, likely far higher too, because he has same duability as Reinhard.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Ohboi

 

[BleedingPeach]

3... 2... 1...

 

[Hl3_or_bust]

I don't understand the basis of this downgrade.

Like, it's extremely clear that the "half of the earth's darkness" thing is literally referring to the night, a night, of which Methuselah contains a stupid amount. In fact, even if you tried to argue that that didn't mean he was still 3-A, your own logic agrees with the page as is, because you seem to agree that the Jaws of Darkness being 5-A is correct because they were made of 100 nights. He even broke off 500,000 nights from his body.

So, there is literally nothing to argue here. The basis of your argument is incongruous with what DI shows and would involve ignoring quite a bit about how Methuselah works to be correct.

Apologies if I sound rude, as sarcastic as this may sound.

 

[Paul_Frank]

The scans in the op and profile like, directly conflict with the argument that the nights aren't that large

"His scale was too vast, his history too dense... A single night was as large as half the world, and Methuselah had accumulated a countless number of them"

This pretty clearly is saying that his scale is due to the nights, because they're part of darkness, each night is the size of half the planet (because half the planet is always in darkness), and he has a ton, something I'm pretty sure we all accept, yes? It's not "only half the darkness of the world" its all the darkness of the world, and in addition to the darkness everywhere, half the world is always in darkness at night time, so that first section in the op is a bit disingenuous

The rest of the thread quite literally relies on the assumption that the nights aren't half the earth, because that is the only argument against them being that density as well.
Since it's pretty easy to establish that each night is objectively half the earth, what exactly is the argument for that not being the density, the OP doesn't really explain that, it simply attempts to try and say that the nights aren't half the world in the first place, and then acknowledges that the density of Methuselah and his attacks is due to the nights.

It is established via the above scan, that each night requires the ability to destroy half the planet (what's in darkness) to beat, this is evidenced by the pretty clear statements about the size of the night, and how Schreiber's lack of range in reference to those massive nights is the reason he can't do enough damage, which combined with the fact that each night is that big, and that the nights are the source of the density, and that Methuselah moving would be able to tear the darkness away from that half the world, leaving a void and causing the planet to crumble, all does suggest that the current density we use is correct

 

[Infera28]

because you seem to agree that the Jaws of Darkness being 5-A is correct because they were made of 100 nights. He even broke off 500,000 nights from his body.

I never said that jaws of darkness are 5-A. I said they were 5-A for the wrong reason.

"His scale was too vast, his history too dense... A single night was as large as half the world, and Methuselah had accumulated a countless number of them"

This pretty clearly is saying that his scale is due to the nights, because they're part of darkness, each night is the size of half the planet (because half the planet is always in darkness), and he has a ton, something I'm pretty sure we all accept, yes? It's not "only half the darkness of the world" its all the darkness of the world, and in addition to the darkness everywhere, half the world is always in darkness at night time, so that first section in the op is a bit disingenuous

Every night is half the size of the planet earth. Because darkness covers half the earth every night. I know that.

But this is just darkness, nothing else ... It is not said anywhere that every night has half the density of the planet earth too, that is what we currently think and that is wrong. So Methuselah's current tier is wrong too.

The rest of the thread quite literally relies on the assumption that the nights aren't half the earth, because that is the only argument against them being that density as well.
Since it's pretty easy to establish that each night is objectively half the earth, what exactly is the argument for that not being the density, the OP doesn't really explain that, it simply attempts to try and say that the nights aren't half the world in the first place, and then acknowledges that the density of Methuselah and his attacks is due to the nights.

I said that they are as big as half the earth tho. Only "they haven't half the density of the earth", because it never was stated and it doesn't make sense, because nights are only darkness not "anything in half the earth including half density of the earth".

We mistakenly thought that every night contained "everything" on half the planet earth including half density of the earth, which is why we gave Methuselah 3-A and 5-A.

It is established via the above scan, that each night requires the ability to destroy half the planet (what's in darkness) to beat, this is evidenced by the pretty clear statements about the size of the night, and how Schreiber's lack of range in reference to those massive nights is the reason he can't do enough damage, which combined with the fact that each night is that big, and that the nights are the source of the density, and that Methuselah moving would be able to tear the darkness away from that half the world, leaving a void and causing the planet to crumble, all does suggest that the current density we use is correct

Methuselah can f*ck Yin and Yang by removing Yin (anything dark) from regions that are not yet morning and destroy the earth, this is hax not AP

but this is only some very specfic and contidional hax and is created by removing his darkness from regions where it is far too early for morning to come and turning them into an emptiness where neither light nor shadow reigned.

The reason Wolfgang could not harm Methuselah was because of the large size of the nights and the high durability / density of Methuselah, which does not mean that every night has half the density of the planet earth, only Methuselah and nights have some unknown amount of high durability / density.

We mistakenly thought that every night contains half the density of the earth too, but this does not make sense because the nights contain only the darkness and not the whole existence of half the planet earth such as density.

 

[Infera28]

It was also repeated in the japanese scan that Methuselah destroys the earth only by removing all darkness from regions where it is far too early for morning to come, creating a non-dual state and ruining the relationship between yin and yang.

 

[PrinceofPein]

Disagree, I can give you the short version now and the long version later
Short version: even the nights are not half of a planet, novemdecillion nights would still be 3A.
But yes the night are half of the world(planet)

 

[QuasiYuri]

Agree with everything, especially Yatsuharagi dumb scaling.

Also for those who say that "it still says half darkness of the world so it would still be legit".

Nowhere does it say the Darkness is as dense as half of Earth, just that it covers half of it metaphorically (it even talks about the day/night duality to get the point across).

A single night is as large as half the world because the world is half-covered in darkness all the time, not because darkness in DI somehow has a mass.

 

[Hl3_or_bust]

"it's metaphorical"

How exactly? Like, sure you can just repeat that Methuselah is the concept of darkness but that doesn't render everything said about him a metaphor, and even if it was that doesn't magically invalidate everything. "It's a metaphor" is not some magic phrase you can use to ward off a CRT, unlike what many seem to think.

And of course this is all ignoring a very easy to spot link on Meth's page that describes the nights in such a way that the current page reflects. If their "density was low", then Schreiber wouldn't be having such trouble actually hurting Methuselah. It literally refers to the "density of history" held within him, which cannot be referring to anything but the nights because those are literally what he is made of and uses to attack.

 

[QuasiYuri]

And of course this is all ignoring a very easy to spot link on Meth's page that describes the nights in such a way that the current page reflects. If their "density was low", then Schreiber wouldn't be having such trouble actually hurting Methuselah. It literally refers to the "density of history" held within him, which cannot be referring to anything but the nights because those are literally what he is made of and uses to attack.

Except nowhere is it said that night = the actual physical density of half the planet.

Just that even regular darkness cover half the planet.
The fact that it mentions "density of history" even goes in line with the fact that it isn't the actual physical density of the planet, which would make no sense.

The point is that night = half the planet's density is a headcanon.

 

[Hl3_or_bust]

Except you are blatantly ignoring how Schreiber was basically completely unable to harm Methuselah, which would not be what happened if your view was the case.

 

[DaReaperMan]

Except you are blatantly ignoring how Schreiber was basically completely unable to harm Methuselah, which would not be what happened if your view was the case.

Tch tch, yes! Upscaling! Tch tch!

 

[Hl3_or_bust]

I beg your pardon?

Nothing I said had anything to do with upscaling.

 

[DaReaperMan]

What do you think our drug friend would be doing when compared to Shreiber's tier? Not agreeing or disagreeing, frankly I don't know about about Shiza to comment, but I am clarifying that lol

 

[Hl3_or_bust]

Are you referring to Wilhelm? Because he was only able to hurt Meth after being raised to the level of the Commanders after their own buff due to more swastikas being lifted.

 

[DaReaperMan]

I'm referring to whoever the hell Meth is to Shreiber in power, if anyone scales to the former then they should have plenty of upscaling to the ladder

 

[Hl3_or_bust]

... huh, I could've sworn that Wilhelm and the Commanders after the aforementioned buffs scaled to the Jaws of Darkness or Methuselah. There's a picture on the wiki I believe of Wilhelm ripping open Methuselah's chest while buffed, although it's possible that was through hax.

 

[QuasiYuri]

Except you are blatantly ignoring how Schreiber was basically completely unable to harm Methuselah, which would not be what happened if your view was the case.

Or there's the fact that history is important to your being and strength as stated all throughout Dies Irae, hence "his history was too dense".

No need for headcanon-ish "it means it's the physical density of Earth" when it makes no sense with the theme of what a night is and when DI already as more in theme explanations.

 

[azontr]

Are you referring to Wilhelm? Because he was only able to hurt Meth after being raised to the level of the Commanders after their own buff due to more swastikas being lifted.

That wasn't what happened. The reason he was capable of defeating Methuselah was because Claudia had consumed Wilhelm's blood, and since Methuselah consumed her blood, Wilhelm was capable of attacking him with it. That's the whole reason 5-A was removed, as literally nobody but Rein and Merc scales and everyone else was hopelessly stomped.

 

[QuasiYuri]

... huh, I could've sworn that Wilhelm and the Commanders after the aforementioned buffs scaled to the Jaws of Darkness or Methuselah. There's a picture on the wiki I believe of Wilhelm ripping open Methuselah's chest while buffed, although it's possible that was through hax.

Did you not follow the previous threads or the VN? There's a bunch of reason why Whilhelm could fight Meth.

 

[Hl3_or_bust]

Or there's the fact that history is important to your being and strength as stated all throughout Dies Irae, hence "his history was too dense".

No need for headcanon-ish "it means it's the physical density of Earth" when it makes no sense with the theme of what a night is and when DI already as more in theme explanations.

... and? Why does that sudden not mean a very specific thing that the verse repeatedly portrays it as meaning because "it's just history"? If history = strength, we have the statements of the nights being half of the earth, and the knowledge that Methuselah was far, far stronger than basically everyone else at the time, what possible argument do you even have?

It's not headcanon. It is that simple. The verse itself does not portray Methuselah working like you are arguing he does, full stop. You can say it doesn't make sense as much as you want but nobody who has actually read through those interactions would ever genuinely believe you. And that's not exactly difficult given that all of the important parts are linked-to on Methuselah's page

 

[Hl3_or_bust]

also on the topic of the Commanders and Wilhelm, I was recently refreshed on that topic. So, my bad.

 

[azontr]

also on the topic of the Commanders and Wilhelm, I was recently refreshed on that topic. So, my bad.

All good lol. I was confused for a while as to why they scaled to Meth in any capacity before the downgrade so lol.

 

[QuasiYuri]

... and? Why does that sudden not mean a very specific thing that the verse repeatedly portrays it as meaning because "it's just history"? If history = strength, we have the statements of the nights being half of the earth, and the knowledge that Methuselah was far, far stronger than basically everyone else at the time, what possible argument do you even have?

Of the night covering half the world, not having the mass of half the world*.

You basically jump to conclusion based on a single word which in context doesn't say anything about it having a mass equal to half the planet.

It's not headcanon. It is that simple. The verse itself does not portray Methuselah working like you are arguing he does, full stop. You can say it doesn't make sense as much as you want but nobody who has actually read through those interactions would ever genuinely believe you. And that's not exactly difficult given that all of the important parts are linked-to on Methuselah's page

The entire DI system is based on this and souls but those who read DI would say it isn't ?

The OP already has shown elements proving my stance, and your argument of "there's this screen" on profile isn't good since half of what we already used regarding Meth was out of context scans to put the Commanders and Whilhelm higher than they are.

 

[QuasiYuri]

Overall it is very simple:

Your only scan talks about scale and history.

You don't have any proof of a night litteraly being equal to half the physical mass of the planet.

 

[Hl3_or_bust]

I literally never said anything about mass and you know it. And again, you can keep repeating yourself all you want but you aren't gonna change the facts of the matter and how this is portrayed in DI itself, as much as you really, really want it to.

And again, I never said anything about souls and whatever, yet you bring it up like I have. And the OP is simply wrong for reasons I have repeatedly gone over, as have others. The OP needs to disprove what is on the profile for their interpretation to replace it, and they have yet to do that, so I don't understand why you seem to think that me using evidence from the page is bad.

In fact, the entire crux of the OP makes no sense fundamentally. Darkness is not a physical object, it's literally a lack of light. It has no mass or density because it is not made of particles.

 

[Infera28]

It seems that some people do not understand the issue, so let me explain again

There are currently only two ways to prove that every night is low 5-B or 5-B

1. That every night equals the destruction of half the earth. This is completely wrong because Methuselah can only destroy the earth through chain reaction hax

Now it has been said that Methuselah can crumble the earth by removing his darkness, but this is only some very specfic and contidional hax and is created by removing his darkness from regions where it is far too early for morning to come and turning them into an emptiness where neither light nor shadow reigned. I do not think we can even use the 5B through hax because this hax is highly dependent on the situation and specfic conditions.

It was also repeated in the japanese scan that Methuselah destroys the earth only by removing all darkness from regions where it is far too early for morning to come, creating a non-dual state and ruining the relationship between yin and yang.

2. That every night contains everything in half the earth plus its density. This is not said anywhere and is completely illogical, because every night is only half the darkness of the earth and not anything on earth like density. Methuselah is only concept of darkness not concept of matter or planet

Methuselah's high density means his high durability, arcane, power and ... basically Methuselah's powerful existence and the amount of this density is completely unknown. You might say that every night adds a certain amount of density to Methuselah's existence, but the amount of this density is completely unknown and nowhere is it said to be equal to the density of half a planet and this is completely illogical and contradicts whole novel.

 

[Infera28]

And again, I never said anything about souls and whatever, yet you bring it up like I have. And the OP is simply wrong for reasons I have repeatedly gone over, as have others. The OP needs to disprove what is on the profile for their interpretation to replace it, and they have yet to do that, so I don't understand why you seem to think that me using evidence from the page is bad.

I already debunked whole profile tho? this is the second time you have said something that I answered in the first post

Methuselah's profle: Attack Potency: Varies, Small Planet level (A single night's mystery requires the destruction of half the planet)

I already debunked that

Now it has been said that Methuselah can crumble the earth by removing his darkness, but this is only some very specfic and contidional hax and is created by removing his darkness from regions where it is far too early for morning to come and turning them into an emptiness where neither light nor shadow reigned. I do not think we can even use the 5B through hax because this hax is highly dependent on the situation and specfic conditions.

It was also repeated in the japanese scan that Methuselah destroys the earth only by removing all darkness from regions where it is far too early for morning to come, creating a non-dual state and ruining the relationship between yin and yang.

That is some chain reaction hax, only working under specfic conditions not AP

 

[Infera28]

And A single night's mystery requires the destruction of half the planet

That never was stated in novel, pure fan fiction.

 

[Infera28]

Also, even if we wank that to attack potency then we can not even scale it to every night because it was Full Power Methuselah / Methuselah himself and completely unrelated to nights.

If he merely let go of all restraint and traveled around the globe

 

[QuasiYuri]

I literally never said anything about mass and you know it. And again, you can keep repeating yourself all you want but you aren't gonna change the facts of the matter and how this is portrayed in DI itself, as much as you really, really want it to.
And again, I never said anything about souls and whatever, yet you bring it up like I have. And the OP is simply wrong for reasons I have repeatedly gone over, as have others. The OP needs to disprove what is on the profile for their interpretation to replace it, and they have yet to do that, so I don't understand why you seem to think that me using evidence from the page is bad.

I think we kinda got a misunderstanding there. Infera just re-explained everything so it's better to start off from here again.

Infera did prove what was wrong with the profile, and all I did was explaining it in another way as well.

 

[Infera28]

I think we kinda got a misunderstanding there. Infera just re-explained everything so it's better to start off from here again.

Infera did prove what was wrong with the profile, and all I did was explaining it in another way as well.

I want to know what do you think about Yakou Madara's next tier? should we use this feat? Has complete control over the movement of stars

Or should we scale his power to other members of the Eastern Expedition and change it to Low 7-B, likely higher? and should we scale Tenma Ootake and Tenma Sukuna to him or not?

 

[Urshani]

goku one shots??????????????
agree with downgrade, not because goku would one shot, but because i agree with almost every crt

 

[QuasiYuri]

I want to know what do you think about Yakou Madara's next tier? should we use this feat? Has complete control over the movement of stars

Or should we scale his power to other members of the Eastern Expedition and change it to Low 7-B, likely higher? and should we scale Tenma Ootake and Tenma Sukuna to him or not?

Hmm, tbh I don't really know why we give him a "Varies" tier.
I remember Yakou being able to hold his own against Morei, although he was weaker.

If we had to pick a minimum, then any would work I guess.

I would prefer Ootake and Sukuna to just scale above others Tenma for now.

 

[Tarang123]

Wouldn’t reinhard still be tier 4 due to scaling from madara?

as for the actual thread, I had other things in mind for a downgrade, but whatever. I don’t quite agree with the logic, but I agree that the 3A rating isn’t very strong at all

 

[QuasiYuri]

Wouldn’t reinhard still be tier 4 due to scaling from madara?

as for the actual thread, I had other things in mind for a downgrade, but whatever. I don’t quite agree with the logic, but I agree that the 3A rating isn’t very strong at all

Reinhard doesn't scale to him. The only statement used in the past is clarified by Masada in the K3 databook where he explains that he only meant that both got blessings from their respective throne god.

 

[Tarang123]

Oh yeah, right. Then I’m fine with tier 6 Reinhard. However, this thread was a little poorly timed as we should have first finished the other upgrade

 

[Infera28]

Should I notify mods? because all current Shinza Banshou knowledgeable members in the wiki have commented in the thread so far.

 

[Infera28]

Oh yeah, right. Then I’m fine with tier 6 Reinhard. However, this thread was a little poorly timed as we should have first finished the other upgrade

No one in the 5-A thread managed to debunk me and the last time anyone tried to do that was days ago, and if this downgrade is accepted, the upgrade will be rejected, because the upgrade was based on damaging Methuselah's nights.