Darksmash
He/Him- 1,494
- 1,640
I really really wanted to wait till I finish reading Dies Irae before making this thread, but due to some preference arising from my personal schedule, I wanted this thread to be done by the end of this month. And it is physically impossible for me to finish reading Dies Irae and make this thread in this narrow window. So here it is. Besides, I believe this was inevitable considering how controversial the Shinza Banshou ratings are in general. Please correct me if I say something wrong.
Let’s get straight to the point
The reasons Hadou Gods got upgraded were because of these 2 threads. I will address the arguments I think are the most relevant for the High 1-A rating.
“As seen in the scans, it has been consistently portrayed throughout the entire series that higher level of "depth" would simply outclass the lower one to the point that it might as well be "bottomless" to them, to put it simply, the difference is very likely as vast as the scale of Taikyoku itself.”
The problem here is, the depth itself was not said to be bottomless. It is more so that it takes forever to get to the bottom. Calling it bottomless would be contradictory, as we know that it has a well defined bottom(The throne). As such extrapolating the term to mean the depth is infinite would also be wrong. Heck, even the scans presented for Hajun’s case only call it “unreachable”, not explicitly infinite. The throne also shouldn’t be in a tier inaccessible from the singularity considering it is literally the “bottom” of it. Heck, it seems to be implied that the throne itself has to be modified to withstand a bigger cosmology(I could swear I had seen a more explicit scan of this but sadly couldn’t find it at the moment). Hence it should not have a static tier independent of any expansions of the lower cosmology at all.
Now, why do I think being “unreachable” does not equate to being infinitely deeper than the last? For the simple fact that when the singularity is not being backed by the throne god they can lol nope it. If the reason the gods are not able to drill through the singularity of the God with more taikyoku was explicitly because of increase in size, then it would make 0 sense for them to be able to do this once it stops being backed by the throne god under the assumption it retains its size.
Scaling the difference in depth to the gap between Taikyoku values is also used as an argument, however I will be frank I don't think the difference between Taikyoku values is impressive either. It being transcendences is what most people seem to take for granted. And I have not seen any definitive proof for it being anything other than just a “very very big” power difference. The most spammed argument for it is this one case where a character uses infinite cloning and gets stomped:
"Dai Houroukaku--Zenjuu Dharani: The Kujou clan's secret technique, Shiori uses the backing and permeation principles of Qigong to direct the power of her punch in a specific direction while bypassing all forms of defense. As a Gudou God, she can infuse this attack with an infinite number of possibilities focused into a single place, creating a veritable meteor shower of attacks powerful enough to surpass Tenma Morei's might and destroy Satanel's shade and even Hajun's Singularity"
it's only an attack where she concentrates her possibilities in a single place. No mentions of "infinite stat amping" or anything of the sort. Considering it compares the attack to stuff like meteor shower and heat haze, the main point of the attack just seems to be some sort of infinite barrage of attacks, not some sort of infinite amp. Anyone at this level with infinite range and much better AP(Not infinitely) should be able to easily stomp infinite clones of someone weaker than them
Besides, trying to quantify the difference between 1-A “layers” using examples involving countable infinity is just hilarious if you actually understand the tiering system.
Now, on to the next part:-
“Being a white slate under the Throne's purview (however, outside the multiverse), statements regarding overall structure of the canvas/All Of Creation will also apply to it. ( In fact, the space surrounding the Throne being described as "Hyperdimensional" should also apply to it. Though, it matters not. )
As such, these statements will also affect the Singularity.
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/615909199544713380/616987295958040659/latest.png
(In a nutshell) During this scene the narrator explicitly states that everything in the canvas bear absolutely no difference to the Gods. Going as far as saying that "no matter how potent something is portrayed in the picture, it can never affect reality" -
If you read the entire thread, you'd notice that I already brought up this scan in the section above.
Here, the Singularity is also described to be the "center of creation" and the act of overwriting it/flooding it with your Taiji is not any different than drawing on a blank canvas.”
This one I just find weird how no one contested this. The scan presented explicitly talks about the difference between a painting and the painter. However, the singularity is never really represented as part of any painting. All scans that I have stumbled across present it as something greater, going beyond the paper itself. The singularity explanations also seem to have been really vague for some reason. It appears to be just a long chain of 1-A structures that start at the paper and end at the throne. And the “singularity” seems to refer to a hole(s) that is(are) made to go through these realms to reach the throne. In this context the paper would be a 1-A structure, as it refers to the container that can contain the painting of any amount of dimensional structures. However, the difference between the paper and the next realm in the singularity, does not appear to be significant at all. Considering it is compared to a blank slate.
For those that don't get the idea yet, the difference between two successive realms of the singularity appears to be the difference between a paper and a blank slate.
So this vs this. Granted this was not the actual argument in any form, it still gives an idea of how the singularity “depth” actually works. I find it very ironic how our standards for what is a “transcendent” layer seem to regress the higher the tiers get, while they should instead be stricter as the gap between the layers becomes exponentially more massive with each tier.
To quote the recently made Tiering system faq:
Q: Is transcending an 1-A character to the same degree they transcend normal humans High 1-A?
A: No. Due to making use of a much larger measuring stick in comparison to lower tiers (Power sets of infinite sets, as opposed to adding individual dimensions), the gap between any two levels in 1-A actually exceeds the entire system below them, and is equivalent to repeating the whole process which led to the previous level on a much higher scale. Thus, most statements that make use of such comparisons would only amount to one further level into the tier, unless some additional context showing it to be higher is present.
As in, to get even one layer higher into 1-A, a character has to transcend another 1-A character just as much as they transcend ,say, a human. There are essentially zero implications of such a massive power difference in all of Shinza Banshou. Aside from a questionable statement claiming Hajun transcends Tenma Yato as much as the latter transcends a human, but that statement was very likely a hyperbole anyway.
I think at this point most of the relevant stuff has been addressed. Some additional things I would like to point out:-
Manipulation of slashes and its targets through change and convergence. Those who were struck by Soujirou possesses the fact "that the sword called Mibu Soujirou cut them". Through this, he can activate the attack again and kill anyone without lifting a finger. Moreover while he can't change the absolute truth that "he cut something", he is capable of changing "what was cut". This allows him to knit the strongest slash by gathering all cuts he mades as a human and realize it, creating an attack that's strong enough to cut the Throne itself
This seems to highly imply that it would have taken Soujirou’s “strongest slash” to cut the throne, hence the implication “Any Taikyoku user>>>>>> Throne” seems to be very wrong.
Also, the exact same scans(Shiori vs Akuro) used for quantifying the difference between the 1-B dimensions of Shinza are for some reason also applied to the difference between painting and painter in context of a Hadou God and creation, so some context/explanation on that would be nice.
To conclude, I believe nothing in Shinza Banshou truly qualifies for the High 1-A rating they currently have. I would go as far as to say that they don't deserve anything above baseline 1-A at all, but that might be too controversial. Anyway, that’s all for now. Please correct me if I misunderstood the context of anything here.
Edit: Since this is my first CRT and all I forgot to make a list for agreements and disagreements:-
Agree: @ItalianGuy1234, @SagaTheLegend, @Guardian_Doge , @HalilAssassino, @Ovy7, @Hasty12345, @Regidian, @theultimate5105, @Yar_R_agi_7k, @XRizkyx, @Kenichichan, @ZERO7772, @Delta333, @korea1234, @Tam0n3n, @Matthew_Schroeder, @TOAAPRESENCE1, @ShivaShakti, @YuriAkuto, @OblivionSama, @Nepuko, @God243, @Kaizuka_Satomi, @Arcker123, @Planck69, @Lapsad, @Ned_the_outer_god, @Devil_slayer99, @Accelerate420, @StrawHatArslan
Disagree: @Tony_di_bugalu, @Bernkastelll, @Everything12, @Infinity_Shun, @TISSG7Redgrave, @Mister6ame6, @PsychoWarper, @Ionliosite, @Ozymandias9, @Gabs22_Gamer, @RamadhanDayYet, @megaraptor, @Fixxed, @Paul_Frank, @GilverTheProtoAngelo, @SleepyTBubble, @Sera_EX, @Amakasu, @Infera28, @Sparteh
Neutral: @StarKingDemonLord, @Chasekilleen, @Planck69, @Zencha9, @Ottavio_Merluzzo, @YungManzi, @I'm_Blue_daba_dee_daba_die, @Rikimarox2
Let’s get straight to the point
The reasons Hadou Gods got upgraded were because of these 2 threads. I will address the arguments I think are the most relevant for the High 1-A rating.
“As seen in the scans, it has been consistently portrayed throughout the entire series that higher level of "depth" would simply outclass the lower one to the point that it might as well be "bottomless" to them, to put it simply, the difference is very likely as vast as the scale of Taikyoku itself.”
The problem here is, the depth itself was not said to be bottomless. It is more so that it takes forever to get to the bottom. Calling it bottomless would be contradictory, as we know that it has a well defined bottom(The throne). As such extrapolating the term to mean the depth is infinite would also be wrong. Heck, even the scans presented for Hajun’s case only call it “unreachable”, not explicitly infinite. The throne also shouldn’t be in a tier inaccessible from the singularity considering it is literally the “bottom” of it. Heck, it seems to be implied that the throne itself has to be modified to withstand a bigger cosmology(I could swear I had seen a more explicit scan of this but sadly couldn’t find it at the moment). Hence it should not have a static tier independent of any expansions of the lower cosmology at all.
Now, why do I think being “unreachable” does not equate to being infinitely deeper than the last? For the simple fact that when the singularity is not being backed by the throne god they can lol nope it. If the reason the gods are not able to drill through the singularity of the God with more taikyoku was explicitly because of increase in size, then it would make 0 sense for them to be able to do this once it stops being backed by the throne god under the assumption it retains its size.
Scaling the difference in depth to the gap between Taikyoku values is also used as an argument, however I will be frank I don't think the difference between Taikyoku values is impressive either. It being transcendences is what most people seem to take for granted. And I have not seen any definitive proof for it being anything other than just a “very very big” power difference. The most spammed argument for it is this one case where a character uses infinite cloning and gets stomped:
"Dai Houroukaku--Zenjuu Dharani: The Kujou clan's secret technique, Shiori uses the backing and permeation principles of Qigong to direct the power of her punch in a specific direction while bypassing all forms of defense. As a Gudou God, she can infuse this attack with an infinite number of possibilities focused into a single place, creating a veritable meteor shower of attacks powerful enough to surpass Tenma Morei's might and destroy Satanel's shade and even Hajun's Singularity"
it's only an attack where she concentrates her possibilities in a single place. No mentions of "infinite stat amping" or anything of the sort. Considering it compares the attack to stuff like meteor shower and heat haze, the main point of the attack just seems to be some sort of infinite barrage of attacks, not some sort of infinite amp. Anyone at this level with infinite range and much better AP(Not infinitely) should be able to easily stomp infinite clones of someone weaker than them
Besides, trying to quantify the difference between 1-A “layers” using examples involving countable infinity is just hilarious if you actually understand the tiering system.
Now, on to the next part:-
“Being a white slate under the Throne's purview (however, outside the multiverse), statements regarding overall structure of the canvas/All Of Creation will also apply to it. ( In fact, the space surrounding the Throne being described as "Hyperdimensional" should also apply to it. Though, it matters not. )
As such, these statements will also affect the Singularity.
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/615909199544713380/616987295958040659/latest.png
(In a nutshell) During this scene the narrator explicitly states that everything in the canvas bear absolutely no difference to the Gods. Going as far as saying that "no matter how potent something is portrayed in the picture, it can never affect reality" -
If you read the entire thread, you'd notice that I already brought up this scan in the section above.
Here, the Singularity is also described to be the "center of creation" and the act of overwriting it/flooding it with your Taiji is not any different than drawing on a blank canvas.”
This one I just find weird how no one contested this. The scan presented explicitly talks about the difference between a painting and the painter. However, the singularity is never really represented as part of any painting. All scans that I have stumbled across present it as something greater, going beyond the paper itself. The singularity explanations also seem to have been really vague for some reason. It appears to be just a long chain of 1-A structures that start at the paper and end at the throne. And the “singularity” seems to refer to a hole(s) that is(are) made to go through these realms to reach the throne. In this context the paper would be a 1-A structure, as it refers to the container that can contain the painting of any amount of dimensional structures. However, the difference between the paper and the next realm in the singularity, does not appear to be significant at all. Considering it is compared to a blank slate.
For those that don't get the idea yet, the difference between two successive realms of the singularity appears to be the difference between a paper and a blank slate.
So this vs this. Granted this was not the actual argument in any form, it still gives an idea of how the singularity “depth” actually works. I find it very ironic how our standards for what is a “transcendent” layer seem to regress the higher the tiers get, while they should instead be stricter as the gap between the layers becomes exponentially more massive with each tier.
To quote the recently made Tiering system faq:
Q: Is transcending an 1-A character to the same degree they transcend normal humans High 1-A?
A: No. Due to making use of a much larger measuring stick in comparison to lower tiers (Power sets of infinite sets, as opposed to adding individual dimensions), the gap between any two levels in 1-A actually exceeds the entire system below them, and is equivalent to repeating the whole process which led to the previous level on a much higher scale. Thus, most statements that make use of such comparisons would only amount to one further level into the tier, unless some additional context showing it to be higher is present.
As in, to get even one layer higher into 1-A, a character has to transcend another 1-A character just as much as they transcend ,say, a human. There are essentially zero implications of such a massive power difference in all of Shinza Banshou. Aside from a questionable statement claiming Hajun transcends Tenma Yato as much as the latter transcends a human, but that statement was very likely a hyperbole anyway.
I think at this point most of the relevant stuff has been addressed. Some additional things I would like to point out:-
Manipulation of slashes and its targets through change and convergence. Those who were struck by Soujirou possesses the fact "that the sword called Mibu Soujirou cut them". Through this, he can activate the attack again and kill anyone without lifting a finger. Moreover while he can't change the absolute truth that "he cut something", he is capable of changing "what was cut". This allows him to knit the strongest slash by gathering all cuts he mades as a human and realize it, creating an attack that's strong enough to cut the Throne itself
This seems to highly imply that it would have taken Soujirou’s “strongest slash” to cut the throne, hence the implication “Any Taikyoku user>>>>>> Throne” seems to be very wrong.
Also, the exact same scans(Shiori vs Akuro) used for quantifying the difference between the 1-B dimensions of Shinza are for some reason also applied to the difference between painting and painter in context of a Hadou God and creation, so some context/explanation on that would be nice.
To conclude, I believe nothing in Shinza Banshou truly qualifies for the High 1-A rating they currently have. I would go as far as to say that they don't deserve anything above baseline 1-A at all, but that might be too controversial. Anyway, that’s all for now. Please correct me if I misunderstood the context of anything here.
Edit: Since this is my first CRT and all I forgot to make a list for agreements and disagreements:-
Agree: @ItalianGuy1234, @SagaTheLegend, @Guardian_Doge , @HalilAssassino, @Ovy7, @Hasty12345, @Regidian, @theultimate5105, @Yar_R_agi_7k, @XRizkyx, @Kenichichan, @ZERO7772, @Delta333, @korea1234, @Tam0n3n, @Matthew_Schroeder, @TOAAPRESENCE1, @ShivaShakti, @YuriAkuto, @OblivionSama, @Nepuko, @God243, @Kaizuka_Satomi, @Arcker123, @Planck69, @Lapsad, @Ned_the_outer_god, @Devil_slayer99, @Accelerate420, @StrawHatArslan
Disagree: @Tony_di_bugalu, @Bernkastelll, @Everything12, @Infinity_Shun, @TISSG7Redgrave, @Mister6ame6, @PsychoWarper, @Ionliosite, @Ozymandias9, @Gabs22_Gamer, @RamadhanDayYet, @megaraptor, @Fixxed, @Paul_Frank, @GilverTheProtoAngelo, @SleepyTBubble, @Sera_EX, @Amakasu, @Infera28, @Sparteh
Neutral: @StarKingDemonLord, @Chasekilleen, @Planck69, @Zencha9, @Ottavio_Merluzzo, @YungManzi, @I'm_Blue_daba_dee_daba_die, @Rikimarox2
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