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Shinza banshou discussion thread~Revival~

QuasiYuri said:
Also this is kinda something we were using for years already.
Click to expand...
How so? I read a lot of old threads and none of them used Yakou's barriers for the verse to be 1-A. Only those who believe in 25D Shinza have used the barriers. You can even read the old discussions of moderators and experts who said that the reason for 1-A was that throne is beyond the concepts of space and time. I do not even remember anyone saying that verse is 1-A because Taiji is beyond the Yakou's Barriers. I do not mean that system still works. But I say 1-A had nothing to do with Yakou.

QuasiYuri said:
The translation isn't wrong, like Chasekilleen precised right after, it is a matter of interpretation. Also this is kinda something we were using for years already.


Without the barriers, the High 1-A thread wouldn't have had proof of the canvas having higher Ds, therefore it wouldn't have been able to argue 1-A transcendence.
It's Soujirou vs Akuro, not Morei. Ravenous used Akuro to prove that dimensions had a R/F diff.

Although I guess there's no point in beating the dead horse, since I think it's now common knowledge how this thread was making nonsensical claims.

Also the old 1-A justification didn't work under the new system anymore; which is why this thread exists in the first place.
Click to expand...
I think proving that the gods are beyond all expansions of concepts and reality, and that everything with any level of power was an picture for the gods, was enough to make verse 1-A. In that thread, Ravenous sent photos of the barriers only once and focused more on going beyond the concepts and laws. If a character is beyond all expansions of the concept of space and time and reality, then what is the need for higher dimensions? The concept of space = all dimensions. All expansion of the reality = all dimensions. I think you yourself accepted in that thread that the gods are beyond the concept of space, just not all expansions of the concept of space. However, these claims are new in themselves and need a new content revision thread.
 
In fact, the main reason I became interested in Dies Irae and read it was Reinhard's abilities. But after reading the novel, I saw that the story was really great and it was the best story I had ever read. I said abilities not power because at that time I did not even know exactly how someone could be 1-A and what 1-A meant.
 
QuasiYuri said:
Why would anyone care about that?
Seriously, it's one of the reason why I hate Shinza VS community.
Click to expand...
i don't really take it too seriously, but i always did like power scaling from stuff like Dragon Ball. Looking up SS4 Gogeta's power level, wondering what he could do, that was stuff I would do as a kid pretty often. So to me, vsbattles is like the logical extension of that, some could say childish, hobby. I find it fun to think about, it's like a meta fiction we write about all the different fictional universes that different authors and such have created, it's enjoyable on its own to catalogue and analyze the abilities and feats of a character, to try and imagine it happening in reality or other such imaginative expressions.


I love dies irae because it has a plot that i personally enjoy a lot. its characters, its story, its music, voice actors, art, and philosophical references (though i don't think the philosophy is exactly supremely deep, it's still enjoyable and acceptable). It has nothing to do with the power scaling, that's just a partial hobby/enjoyment of mine that I don't take seriously and use mostly as more of a joke than anything serious.


I do think being 1-A would be cool for the Shina verse, for some reason, but I don't actually have access to any way of substantiating the prospect of the characters being 1-A because, in dies irae, no one evidently expresses 1-A abilities.
 
Infera28 said:
How so? I read a lot of old threads and none of them used Yakou's barriers for the verse to be 1-A. Only those who believe in 25D Shinza have used the barriers. You can even read the old discussions of moderators and experts who said that the reason for 1-A was that throne is beyond the concepts of space and time. I do not even remember anyone saying that verse is 1-A because Taiji is beyond the Yakou's Barriers. I do not mean that system still works. But I say 1-A had nothing to do with Yakou.
Click to expand...
I litteraly read the reason why they were 1-A several times, and without Yakou's barriers, the world wouldn't have proof of higher D structures and the 1-A transcendence argument wouldn't exist.
Argument was that Taiji created concepts of the world and had unlimited overwrite/expansion, Yakou's barriers proved the world has higher Ds in it, Akuro proved they are legit, some bit of stretching; and therefore they were 1-A.

In fact the Throne stopped being an argument after the Tiering System update, and became a mere supporting evidence.

If anything, it just shows how most dudes defending 1-A Shinza didn't even know what they were defending.
Infera28 said:
I think proving that the gods are beyond all expansions of concepts and reality, and that everything with any level of power was an picture for the gods, was enough to make verse 1-A.
Click to expand...
Except the original thread never did that, and had to use Yakou's barrier to say that even higher dimensions didn't make a difference.? Ravenous' conclusion litteraly says "so here's why the 24D feats makes them 1-A"

So what of it? Why does having 24 higher dimensions grant a verse 1-A rating?

To conclude: That's because their laws being "unlimited expansion/overwrite" applies to simply any-D structures. Taikyoku is a force that allows users to paint over all there is or at least exist above and manipulate all existence, it doesn't matter how many "layers" are piled up. This is essentially showcased by Soujirou's attempt to slash Akuro and Yakou's attempt to block Ootake's attack. Taikyoku is something else.

Heck, it was even stated that no matter how the picture extends itself in potency, it can never harm reality ― this picture includes both 24D barriers and physical slashes, they bear no difference to Taikyoku at all. Another thing to note is that, when new universes are created, they are immediately brought into the Throne's jurisdiction.
Infera28 said:
In that thread, Ravenous sent photos of the barriers only once and focused more on going beyond the concepts and laws. If a character is beyond all expansions of the concept of space and time and reality, then what is the need for higher dimensions? The concept of space = all dimensions. All expansion of the reality = all dimensions. I think you yourself accepted in that thread that the gods are beyond the concept of space, just not all expansions of the concept of space. However, these claims are new in themselves and need a new content revision thread.
Click to expand...
You would never get 1-A for something such as "being beyond the concept of space". It's litteraly one of the Tiering System notes.
And you would hardly prove more than High 3-A or at best Low 1-C through the feats presented here without some higher dimensions mention; which is why Ravenous brought the barriers in the first place.

Also I didn't participate in Ravenous thread, so how would I have accepted anything back then?
 
Advancedlamb said:
i don't really take it too seriously, but i always did like power scaling from stuff like Dragon Ball. Looking up SS4 Gogeta's power level, wondering what he could do, that was stuff I would do as a kid pretty often. So to me, vsbattles is like the logical extension of that, some could say childish, hobby. I find it fun to think about, it's like a meta fiction we write about all the different fictional universes that different authors and such have created, it's enjoyable on its own to catalogue and analyze the abilities and feats of a character, to try and imagine it happening in reality or other such imaginative expressions.


I love dies irae because it has a plot that i personally enjoy a lot. its characters, its story, its music, voice actors, art, and philosophical references (though i don't think the philosophy is exactly supremely deep, it's still enjoyable and acceptable). It has nothing to do with the power scaling, that's just a partial hobby/enjoyment of mine that I don't take seriously and use mostly as more of a joke than anything serious.


I do think being 1-A would be cool for the Shina verse, for some reason, but I don't actually have access to any way of substantiating the prospect of the characters being 1-A because, in dies irae, no one evidently expresses 1-A abilities.
Click to expand...
Yeah, I think powerscaling is cool in itself and even kinda funny by times too.

I'm just a bit on edge against those who don't care about properly catalogue and analyze abilities, and just want their characters to be the strongest without a care in the world for actually respecting the work by properly indexing it. And it is sadly the case of a lot of Shinza debatters I encountered so far.

Sorry if I sounded harsher than intended in my previous comment btw.
 
QuasiYuri said:
Why would anyone care about that?
Seriously, it's one of the reason why I hate Shinza VS community.
Click to expand...
It's funny how authors or writers make a franchise for plot and beautiful storyline if their imagination, only for people to love it for how powerful it is😅💔.
 
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Teezar said:
It's funny how authors or writers make a franchise only for people to love it for how powerful it is😅💔.
Click to expand...
I don't think it is Masada's case though.

Even if there's one or two verses which really sounds like they are made by VS debatters.
 
QuasiYuri said:
Yeah, I think powerscaling is cool in itself and even kinda funny by times too.

I'm just a bit on edge against those who don't care about properly catalogue and analyze abilities, and just want their characters to be the strongest without a care in the world for actually respecting the work by properly indexing it. And it is sadly the case of a lot of Shinza debatters I encountered so far.

Sorry if I sounded harsher than intended in my previous comment btw.
Click to expand...
I definitely care if it's accurate or not. there's no point in this little hobby of power scaling if you're just making shit up, the whole point is trying to analyze the shows that you're watching, and when doing any analysis you'd want to be...accurate, of course.

I understand why you'd be jumpy, for some reason the Shinza community has a really bad reputation in some circles.
 
Infera28 said:
How so? I read a lot of old threads and none of them used Yakou's barriers for the verse to be 1-A. Only those who believe in 25D Shinza have used the barriers. You can even read the old discussions of moderators and experts who said that the reason for 1-A was that throne is beyond the concepts of space and time. I do not even remember anyone saying that verse is 1-A because Taiji is beyond the Yakou's Barriers. I do not mean that system still works. But I say 1-A had nothing to do with Yakou.


I think proving that the gods are beyond all expansions of concepts and reality, and that everything with any level of power was an picture for the gods, was enough to make verse 1-A. In that thread, Ravenous sent photos of the barriers only once and focused more on going beyond the concepts and laws. If a character is beyond all expansions of the concept of space and time and reality, then what is the need for higher dimensions? The concept of space = all dimensions. All expansion of the reality = all dimensions. I think you yourself accepted in that thread that the gods are beyond the concept of space, just not all expansions of the concept of space. However, these claims are new in themselves and need a new content revision thread.
Click to expand...
Beyond concept of space grants 1A?
Beyond all expansion of reality also? Wow.
QuasiYuri said:
I don't think it is Masada's case though.

Even if there's one or two verses which really sounds like they are made by VS debatters.
Click to expand...
I get this vibe from instant death and misfit of the demon king academy to be honest😂.
 
QuasiYuri said:
Although it doesn't give much more stuff regarding this. Others instances just say they are made of space time, can block Kamunagara and describe them with the "phase" term used when talking about higher dimensions.
Click to expand...
Do you have the video of these instances by Ikoi? (where it says the barrier is made up of spacetime and 高次元 is used in the same context when referring to Madara Yakou's 障壁？)
 
QuasiYuri said:
I litteraly read the reason why they were 1-A several times, and without Yakou's barriers, the world wouldn't have proof of higher D structures and the 1-A transcendence argument wouldn't exist.
Argument was that Taiji created concepts of the world and had unlimited overwrite/expansion, Yakou's barriers proved the world has higher Ds in it, Akuro proved they are legit, some bit of stretching; and therefore they were 1-A.
Click to expand...
I was talking about the old system, when the experts were still there, not the new system. That's why I said Ravenous was the first to use barriers and I did not say once that the old system was still working. I just said that verse was 1-A (In past) without using the barrier argument. Although you say the new system for Shinza did not work, it is your opinion, not the stuff and if it were true, Shinza would be downgraded as soon as the system changed, but we did not see such a thing. This is something that must be accepted in a content revision thread.

QuasiYuri said:
Except the original thread never did that, and had to use Yakou's barrier to say that even higher dimensions didn't make a difference.? Ravenous' conclusion litteraly says "so here's why the 24D feats makes them 1-A"
Click to expand...
Where did I say it didn't make a difference? I said that Ravenous mentioned the the barriers only once in the thread (Just sent "one" link to Yakou Barriers) and he was mostly talking about laws, concepts, and dualities and i did not say that Ravenous wanted to make verse 1-A only with them, but I said that "I think" they would be enough.

QuasiYuri said:
You would never get 1-A for something such as "being beyond the concept of space". It's litteraly one of the Tiering System notes.
And you would hardly prove more than High 3-A or at best Low 1-C through the feats presented here without some higher dimensions mention; which is why Ravenous brought the barriers in the first place.
Click to expand...
I said beyond all expansions the concept of space and reality not being beyond the concept of space. Higher dimensions are part of the concept of space, so it is impossible to be beyond all expansions of the concept of space and still be limited to space. Idk how that is only high 3-A or Low 1-C. Also, there are always 4 higher dimensions in the verses, so there are always higher dimensions in verses and there is no need for 25 higher dimensions or more.

However, do note that a character can qualify for this rating even if their verse does not have an infinitely-layered or equivalent cosmology, as long as it is either stated, shown or left very obvious that the character in question already bypasses the very nature of such structures altogether, in a way that simply "stacking" more of them logically would not allow one to reach their level of power / size.[3]

It should, on the other hand, be kept in mind that merely existing "beyond the concepts of space and time" and similar feats do not necessarily qualify one to bypass into this tier unless the work of fiction in question leaves it very clear that a character also exists beyond all extensions of the concepts which they transcend.

Beyond all expansion is enough, without any need to 25 or even 5 higher dimensions

QuasiYuri said:
Also I didn't participate in Ravenous thread, so how would I have accepted anything back then?
Click to expand...
I meant this thread.
 
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Teezar said:
Beyond concept of space grants 1A?
Beyond all expansion of reality also? Wow.
Click to expand...
It should, on the other hand, be kept in mind that merely existing "beyond the concepts of space and time" and similar feats do not necessarily qualify one to bypass into this tier unless the work of fiction in question leaves it very clear that a character also exists beyond all extensions of the concepts which they transcend.

And Higher dimensions are part of reality. Otherwise, they would be considered unreal.
 
Chasekilleen said:
Do you have the video of these instances by Ikoi? (where it says the barrier is made up of spacetime and 高次元 is used in the same context when referring to Madara Yakou's 障壁？)
Click to expand...
I'll try to find them.

The space time one is when he blocked the Kamunagaras, and the other against Morei.
The downgrade thread has explanations of both in the OP, so you can look at it while I'm searching.
 
QuasiYuri said:
The translation isn't wrong, like Chasekilleen precised right after, it is a matter of interpretation. Also this is kinda something we were using for years already.


Without the barriers, the High 1-A thread wouldn't have had proof of the canvas having higher Ds, therefore it wouldn't have been able to argue 1-A transcendence.
It's Soujirou vs Akuro, not Morei. Ravenous used Akuro to prove that dimensions had a R/F diff.

Although I guess there's no point in beating the dead horse, since I think it's now common knowledge how this thread was making nonsensical claims.

Also the old 1-A justification didn't work under the new system anymore; which is why this thread existed in the first place.
Click to expand...
In old system, if you are proved to be beyond all concepts of time and space and dimensions, you are outerversal. In this system, you have to transcend infinite layers or dimension to be outerversal, correct?
 
Ultra_instinct_issei said:
In old system, if you are proved to be beyond all concepts of time and space and dimensions, you are outerversal. In this system, you have to transcend infinite layers or dimension to be outerversal, correct?
Click to expand...
Isn't the Root 1-A? Nasuverse doesn't have a high 1-B cosmology to transcend iirc? So that can't be true.
 
Ultra_instinct_issei said:
In old system, if you are proved to be beyond all concepts of time and space and dimensions, you are outerversal. In this system, you have to transcend infinite layers or dimension to be outerversal, correct?
Click to expand...
Old system: Transcending infinite higher dimensions or concepts of space and time.

New system: Fully or conceptually transcending infinitely-layered hierarchies made of higher dimensions at a level that even adding more higher dimensions to that hierarchy still can not reach you. Fully transcending all extensions of the dimensionality or concept of space. In the absence of infinitely-layered hierarchies made of higher dimensions in cosmology, it is very difficult to get 1-A from the latter.
 
Infera28 said:
New system: Fully or conceptually transcending a hierarchy made of infinite higher dimensions at a level that even adding more higher dimensions to that hierarchy still can not reach you. Fully transcending all extensions of the dimensionality or concept of space. In the absence of infinitely higher dimensions in cosmology, it is very difficult to get 1-A from the latter.
Click to expand...
What a pain to prove.. Oh well, I'd rather have accurate profiles than discord goon wanked levels of profiles tbh
 
Exactly a great pain. But at the same time, almost everyone in Discord is 1-A. I personally do not like either. Not to be so strict, not to give the tier so easily.
 
Teezar said:
Ultima explained why it's 1A.
Click to expand...
Ik the Root is 1-A, ik why it's 1-A on the wiki. If you read the comment thread, I was responding to this:

Ultra_instinct_issei said:
In this system, you have to transcend infinite layers or dimension to be outerversal, correct?
Click to expand...
Where I was questioning the validity of needing a high 1-B cosmology to get a character to 1-A. I used the Root as a counter-example to those suspected standards.
 
Chasekilleen said:
I don't know this site's tiering well to give an accurate answer but the simplest analogy I can give is the Rho Aias having 24 layers.
But judging the reactions of you two, I'm going to guess you got bamboozled??
Click to expand...
well kind of the main reason why they were downgraded was cause of the mistranslation and it does not make sense to me till this day, but well i am waiting
Chasekilleen said:
じげん can also mean levels and layers as well. Depending on context. But calling a dimension gaps that can block and phase attacks, doesn't seem to make sense in my honest opinion, hence I think layers/levels should be more appropriate rather than dimensions.

It is saying that it is an absolute dislocation barrier that that reaches up to 24 dimensions layers that phases the impact of an attack.

I would honestly read the entire MasadaChunnige in one go with no interruptions if I have no Uni nor work, but since I am doing both, it is going to severely affect me by reading this work in an enjoyable manner.
Click to expand...
In this context it definitely meant layers or shapes, here is the full scenario
  1. As far as one can see there’s a dark desert, and it bears the sign of death.
  2. Just by standing there, Yakou felt like his life forse was running out. Because he already achieved Taikyoku, he was able to bear this weight.
  3. If a weaker person took a step onto this ground, he would’ve collapsed and died right away.
  4. In this hell [world] nothing but death exists… If one listened carefully, he would hear the faint “want to die, want to die” from the glass-covered sky.
  5. Ootake: You done well coming this far. Hajun’s child.
  6. The existence that faded in the surroundings, the mass of overwhelming empty death — Yakou failed to notice it.
  7. Ootake: You, again, seem to be impressed by this concept of death.
  8. The voice is colorless, the tranquility itself. But along with that voice, the steel roared with a strike.
  9. Despite thinking that it was just a simple hit with a fist, Yakou…
  10. 「吐菩加身依美多女――祓い給え清め給え――寒言神尊利根陀見！」
  11. Twenty-four dimensional faults. An absolute barrier that undergoes a phase transition of impact.. This was what Yakou created between him and Ootake.
  12. Overly excessive protection. Even one tenth of that would’ve been enough to stop the attack from Kamunagara before.
  13. Extremely fast mantra reminding of a scream. Along with applying the toughest defence, Yakou retreated by teleportation. Even if that would make him a coward, Madara Yakou had no other choice. But honestly, he haven’t knew why he acted that way.
  14. It felt like it was the most suitable action, but at the same time, absolutely meaningless.
  15. Ootake: Useless.
  16. All that defence was just like a thin paper. Each hit to the barrier from that steel fist beared enough power to crush the mountains just by the heath of the impact, and it crushed the defence easily.
  17. An iron hammer that penetrated, not minding what was before him — with that complete extinction going forward, there was no time to defend.
  18. And so, without any means for defence...
Click to expand...
So yes then we have yakou using way less barriers against other taikyoku users btw.


Anyway u understand Infera anger, well i was pained since the main reason for the downgrade was the barrier actually and that yakou colorless taikyoku only brings phenomenons of the world and does not affect them(Boosts them) which is so ******* wrong it is now annoying at this point.

And Yuri if you think it was not the barriers that downgraded them why don tyou read the thread again and see for yourself. at this point if i can get someone to translate yakou character files and also Yakou Path in K3 i will be making an upgrade thread, MLT sucks i would have used the one with me
 
Truth be told, saying that Yakou can only summon physical phenomenon doesn't really make any sense as it's pretty blatant that the only way to defeat Taiji is with Taiji. This would mean that the only real reason (other than the fact that Morei didn't expect Madara to get so powerful) that Madara blocked her attacks was because his Taikyoku was on a level where her attack could be blocked (of course, it was stated that it was likely that it would be destroyed, anyway so it wasn't that big of a difference between her flames and his barriers).
 
Tarang123 said:
Truth be told, saying that Yakou can only summon physical phenomenon doesn't really make any sense
Click to expand...
...
Read K3 for god's sake. His file litteraly is the one saying that.
Tarang123 said:
as it's pretty blatant that the only way to defeat Taiji is with Taiji.
Click to expand...
Belial, Rindou (pre Hado) or Shura Mandala users lack Taiji.
Tarang123 said:
This would mean that the only real reason (other than the fact that Morei didn't expect Madara to get so powerful) that Madara blocked her attacks was because his Taikyoku was on a level where her attack could be blocked (of course, it was stated that it was likely that it would be destroyed, anyway so it wasn't that big of a difference between her flames and his barriers).
Click to expand...
Madara said something like being a 2 and Morei a 400 if he had to compare each other.
But it just prove how there's no 1-A diff with phenomenons and all.
 
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