SHINZA 1-A THREAD (PART ONE)

[PrinceofPein]

This thread is the first, which is to accept that the Gods at the very least have a 1-A tier, based on their nature (singularity) the R>F difference between them and creation. Here is the blog

Shinza Explanation for 1-A

vsbattles.fandom.com

Agree:
Disagree:
Neutral:

 

[HigashikataJobin]

Agree and following.

 

[Xipheria]

The scan for the part that said the one with higher Taikyoku ignores the durability of the one with lower Taikyoku only said that if you don't have Taikyoku, you won't reach the Gods or connect with them

 

[Bernkastelll]

The scan for the part that said the one with higher Taikyoku ignores the durability of the one with lower Taikyoku only said that if you don't have Taikyoku, you won't reach the Gods or connect them

Are people still using mistranslations in Shinza's blogs?

 

[Mugen-Kokutosho-Jigoku]

Agree with them being 1-A at the very least, altough i have some disagreements regarding the higher / lower Taikyoku value part (which Xipheria already pointed out above)

 

[Xipheria]

Are people still using mistranslations in Shinza's blogs

Not sure, from reading the scans and the explanation, almost everything seemed fine on the surface, only this part is a problem, besides, inverse scaling based on Taikyoku values is kinda inconsistent

 

[LamentSatanael]

Checked it all; seems fine on the surface level. Wouldn't say all of the shinza blogs are a "mistranslation" at all over one mistake

Agree for the time being.

 

[PrinceofPein]

The scan was a mix up, but since the entire part is irrelevant to my claim, I have removed it. Who wins taikyoku battles is irrelevant here

 

[JustANormalPerson01]

I'd like to focus on the following part of the blog:

喩えるなら 、 絵の中でどれだけ猛火を描写しようと 、 それが現実の 人間を燃やせるわけがないのと同じ 。

To put it in another way, no matter how raging the fire is depicted in a painting, it can't burn a real person.

立っている場所がそもそも違うという断絶感。

A sense of disconnection, that the place where we are standing isn't the same to begin with.

そして 、 絵に現実は害せなくても 、 現実が絵を破壊することは容易 に出来る 。

And even if the picture can't harm the reality, reality can easily destroy the picture.

高次元から低次元への攻撃は 、 赤子の手を捻るよりも通しやすい 。

An attack from a higher dimension to a lower dimension is easier to get through than twisting a baby's hand

How certain it is that this is talking about Reality-Fiction difference, and not just using reality and fiction as a metaphor to explain the difference between N-D and (N+1)-D? Because, if it is the latter, going by the Reality-Fiction Transcendence page:

However, bear in mind that simple visual portrayals of a character viewing the world within some such construct are not enough to qualify. And so, for example, a cosmic entity being depicted as seeing the universe as a computer game "because this is the only way human minds can comprehend it" would not suffice, and likewise, neither would cases where a Reality/Fiction metaphor is simply used as an analogy for higher dimensions. Broadly speaking, it ought to be reasonably clear that the higher world views the lower one as something insubstantial relative to itself, or in other words, that the Reality/Fiction relationship be meant as relatively literal.

Not that I disagree with this, for now. I just think this point is something that does need to be addressed

 

[Black-san112]

ah shit here we go again, well welcome back shinza hopefully
agree and following

 

[Xipheria]

I'd like to focus on the following part of the blog:

How certain it is that this is talking about Reality-Fiction difference, and not just using reality and fiction as a metaphor to explain the difference between N-D and (N+1)-D? Because, if it is the latter, going by the Reality-Fiction Transcendence page:

Not that I disagree with this, for now. I just think this point is something that does need to be addressed

There are a lot of scans supporting this R/F transcendence too.

Gods are beings who achieved Taikyoku were many times stated that unless you have Taikyoku, everything you do will never reach them, in others words, be on the same “level” as them (“level” here means your entire existence and even the dimension you reside in) just like how beings in Fiction can’t never be real compared to us, the point of these statements being spammed over and over again are meant to remind the difference in existence between Gods and Creation, most of these statements are taken in the context of during the fights.

 

[PrinceofPein]

I'd like to focus on the following part of the blog:

How certain it is that this is talking about Reality-Fiction difference, and not just using reality and fiction as a metaphor to explain the difference between N-D and (N+1)-D? Because, if it is the latter, going by the Reality-Fiction Transcendence page:

Not that I disagree with this, for now. I just think this point is something that does need to be addressed

That's a statement explaining the difference between reality and fiction literally. Saying a fire in a painting can never hurt a real person and that was used to describe the gap between Akuro and soujiro.
Also there are tons of other statement about RF and how the gods view the world as a painting.

 

[Legacy30]

People with Taikyoku are totally inaccessible to those below them without Taikyoku...Except for Tenma Awaumi, who is also a part of Yato's forces enhanced to have Taikyoku. Even though he is a Tenma, his hands get cut off by Soujirou who doesn't have Taikyoku in the early parts of the story of Kajiri Kamui Kagura. And before someone says he doesn't have Taikyoku,

Q: 夜刀の持つ軍勢変性により夜都賀波岐は強化されてますが、海坊主(神父様と子供たち) が他に比べてあっさりやられたのは、なぜでしょうか。

A: まずディエス経験者ならご存知の通り、彼は夜刀とさほど密な繋がりを持っていないというのが一点。そして淡海は夜刀の支配力が及ぶギリギリの場所というのが二点。要するに、身も蓋もない言い方をしてしまうと、海坊主さんは他の天魔勢より自由が利いたので最前線に特攻したけど、それにより無間神無月の加護が薄くなったのでやられたということ。加えて言うなら、夜行の存在がイレギュラー。波旬の代行者として曲がりになりにも太極に達していた彼がいなければ、龍明が東外流のような自爆技を使わない限り止められなかったはず。そしてあのとき龍明を失っていたら、不破之関で全滅していたでしょう。

It mentions that the blessing he has from Yato is weakened, not that he doesn't have it at all. For having a 1-A tier, no matter how small of a degree that protection may be, it is supposed to be utterly above everything below them that the lower being could not interact with them at all. And yet Awaumi gets his hands cut off by a below 1-A being. For counterarguments such as the scan itself saying a person with Taikyoku was necessary to put down Awaumi, that isn't the point of my argument. My point is that Soujirou was still able to interact and affect Awaumi regardless.

And if we're using scans from Avesta of Black and White, we have Bahlavan, who is strong enough to destroy Nadare completely before all of his powerups from fighting Magsarion. He's a mortal who can never become a Gudou God yet can still destroy Nadare, who is the only pseudo Gudou God in Mitra's world, the same status as the Tenma who are also pseudo gods.

 

[PrinceofPein]

People with Taikyoku are totally inaccessible to those below them without Taikyoku...Except for Tenma Awaumi, who is also a part of Yato's forces enhanced to have Taikyoku. Even though he is a Tenma, his hands get cut off by Soujirou who doesn't have Taikyoku in the early parts of the story of Kajiri Kamui Kagura. And before someone says he doesn't have Taikyoku,

It mentions that the blessing he has from Yato is weakened, not that he doesn't have it at all. For having a 1-A tier, no matter how small of a degree that protection may be, it is supposed to be utterly above everything below them that the lower being could not interact with them at all. And yet Awaumi gets his hands cut off by a below 1-A being. For counterarguments such as the scan itself saying a person with Taikyoku was necessary to put down Awaumi, that isn't the point of my argument. My point is that Soujirou was still able to interact and affect Awaumi regardless.

He is literally outside Yato's law. All Tenmas borrow Yato's taikyoku, and he is a very special case as he is outside his law. So, this is not even an argument to begin with.

And if we're using scans from Avesta of Black and White, we have Bahlavan, who is strong enough to destroy Nadare completely before all of his powerups from fighting Magsarion. He's a mortal who can never become a Gudou God yet can still destroy Nadare, who is the only pseudo Gudou God in Mitra's world, the same status as the Tenma who are also pseudo gods.

You seem to mix pseudo-gods with the actual gods, which implies ignorance in this matter. Nadare has no taikyoku, and neither is she a god.
Pseudo-gods are not gods; they have a connection to someone who is and hence, most of the time, they are either a glass cannon or a stone wall, depending on the god they have a connection to. Beside it is due to Nadare's nature and law that Bahlavan can never kill her no matter how many times he destroys her.

 

[N1kBud0]

People with Taikyoku are totally inaccessible to those below them without Taikyoku...Except for Tenma Awaumi, who is also a part of Yato's forces enhanced to have Taikyoku. Even though he is a Tenma, his hands get cut off by Soujirou who doesn't have Taikyoku in the early parts of the story of Kajiri Kamui Kagura. And before someone says he doesn't have Taikyoku,

It mentions that the blessing he has from Yato is weakened, not that he doesn't have it at all. For having a 1-A tier, no matter how small of a degree that protection may be, it is supposed to be utterly above everything below them that the lower being could not interact with them at all. And yet Awaumi gets his hands cut off by a below 1-A being. For counterarguments such as the scan itself saying a person with Taikyoku was necessary to put down Awaumi, that isn't the point of my argument. My point is that Soujirou was still able to interact and affect Awaumi regardless.

And if we're using scans from Avesta of Black and White, we have Bahlavan, who is strong enough to destroy Nadare completely before all of his powerups from fighting Magsarion. He's a mortal who can never become a Gudou God yet can still destroy Nadare, who is the only pseudo Gudou God in Mitra's world, the same status as the Tenma who are also pseudo gods.

Awaumi is blatantly stated to be powerless tho. He is not even part of Yato's legion. And also, Nadare and Bahlavan are both Archdemons (or Demon Kings if you prefer). And I want to point out that the concept of Gudou God didn't exist before the 4th Heaven

 

[Legacy30]

He is literally outside Yato's law. All Tenmas borrow Yato's taikyoku, and he is a very special case as he is outside his law. So, this is not even an argument to begin with.

He's literally not when he's right at the border of Yato's territory which the scan says it's the very edge of Yato's control. You are denying the scan explicitly saying he is still within Yato's territory and has the protection of his law on him. If he were really outside of Yato's law he would get erased for being in Hajun's territory. Masada doesn't even deny Awaumi as a part of Yato's legion in the first place.

You seem to mix pseudo-gods with the actual gods, which implies ignorance in this matter. Nadare has no taikyoku, and neither is she a god.
Pseudo-gods are not gods; they have a connection to someone who is and hence, most of the time, they are either a glass cannon or a stone wall, depending on the god they have a connection to. Beside it is due to Nadare's nature and law that Bahlavan can never kill her no matter how many times he destroys her.

Not even my argument in the first place when I'm not trying to prove pseudo-gods = actual gods. Don't get it mixed up. Prove that Nadare has no divine power as a pseudo god. And prove your assertion that pseudo gods don't automatically have divine powers depending on the god they are connected to. Bahlavan can't kill Nadare because he destroyed her in the ship that auto revives the Demon Kings when they die in there. But that's irrelevant to my main argument. What's really important is Balhavan being capable of destroying the body of a pseudo Gudou God like Nadare.

 

[Mugen_no_Setsuna]

Have to disagree for the time being due to the translation of K3's scans are just the same old TL that you can find on the internet years ago (and they are extremely OUTDATED). Notify me if you guys can fix them with better TL.

 

[N1kBud0]

Have to disagree for the time being due to the translation of K3's scans are just the same old TL that you can find on the internet years ago (and they are extremely OUTDATED). Notify me if you guys can fix them with better TL.

Translations are correct. You can check for yourself by doing OCR so you extract the text from image and then with DeepL

 

[PrinceofPein]

He's literally not when he's right at the border of Yato's territory which the scan says it's the very edge of Yato's control. You are denying the scan explicitly saying he is still within Yato's territory and has the protection of his law on him. If he were really outside of Yato's law he would get erased for being in Hajun's territory. Masada doesn't even deny Awaumi as a part of Yato's legion in the first place.

I will like to think you have not actually read K3, the yato law is called time armour and he is a tenma who does not have that. Yato's law is the time armour, awaumi does not have that.

Prove that Nadare has no divine power as a pseudo god.

I cannot prove a negative, she did not show anything related to mithra law. She is a nadare picked and fated to die. It is up to you to prove she has a taikyoku power.

And prove your assertion that pseudo gods don't automatically have divine powers depending on the god they are connected to.

Tenma Awaumi does not have one for one.

Bahlavan can't kill Nadare because he destroyed her in the ship that auto revives the Demon Kings when they die in there.

Not only that a Nadare cannot be killed unless all the Daevas are dead, they are the last one that need to be fought before facing the throne. That's the main reason why nothing Bahlavan would do would have mattered since he himself is still alive.

I really see no point in your arguments.

 

[Legacy30]

I will like to think you have not actually read K3, the yato law is called time armour and he is a tenma who does not have that. Yato's law is the time armour, awaumi does not have that.

Fyi, It's not called time armor, it's Mugen Kannadzuki and the scan does not say he doesn't have it. It's just weakened. You are vehement in denying what the text explicitly says.

I cannot prove a negative, she did not show anything related to mithra law. She is a nadare picked and fated to die. It is up to you to prove she has a taikyoku power.

Oh yeah, as if pseudo gudou gods like Soujirou under Hajun's control show anything related to Hajun's law in his law of being the ultimate sword. Mind you, pseudo-god Soujirou under Hajun's control is explicitly stronger than actual Gudou God Soujirou. His profile in the game for pseudo god Soujirou does have Taikyoku. I repeat, it's up to you to prove pseudo gods don't have divine powers automatically due to their connection to their god.

Tenma Awaumi does not have one for one.

That's for you to prove he doesn't since all Tenmas under Yato have Taikyoku. Explain why he's the exception for not having Taikyoku which you have not done since.

Not only that a Nadare cannot be killed unless all the Daevas are dead, they are the last one that need to be fought before facing the throne. That's the main reason why nothing Bahlavan would do would have mattered since he himself is still alive.

I really see no point in your arguments.

I repeat, I don't care about Nadare's immortality, I care about Bahlavan being able to affect and interact with her. Her dying or not does not matter in the slightest bit when that's an argument you introduced, not me. So I will not argue on this matter any further.

 

[N1kBud0]

Anyway I agree that at the very least they are 1-A. Tho (as pointed out by Xipheria and Mugen Kokutosho Jigoku) I disagree on the higher/lower Taiji value

 

[Mugen-Kokutosho-Jigoku]

People with Taikyoku are totally inaccessible to those below them without Taikyoku...Except for Tenma Awaumi, who is also a part of Yato's forces enhanced to have Taikyoku. Even though he is a Tenma, his hands get cut off by Soujirou who doesn't have Taikyoku in the early parts of the story of Kajiri Kamui Kagura.

He doesn't have Taikyoku, he's literally stated to be powerless by Akuro

It mentions that the blessing he has from Yato is weakened, not that he doesn't have it at all.

Doesn't change much given how he was defeated by a mere spell of Yakou that just manipulates celestial bodies. Also, he's literally at the edge of Yato's territory, therefore near a world in which individuals like the Yatsukahagi would die: it wouldn't make much sense for him to have Taikyoku or to be as strong as the rest of the Yatsukahagi (iirc Ryumei even points out the difference between him and the Tenmas of Edo, might re-check later).

For having a 1-A tier, no matter how small of a degree that protection may be, it is supposed to be utterly above everything below them that the lower being could not interact with them at all. And yet Awaumi gets his hands cut off by a below 1-A being. For counterarguments such as the scan itself saying a person with Taikyoku was necessary to put down Awaumi, that isn't the point of my argument. My point is that Soujirou was still able to interact and affect Awaumi regardless.

I don't see any problem with Soujirou being able to a mere Tier 5/6 being (according to Masada's ranking) given how Gods are Tier 7. Hell, Awaumi's death didn't even make Yato feel physical pain, just mental pain due to the loss of a part of his world. I would also like to add that your scan doesn't say that a person with Taikyoku is required to defeat Awaumi, but only that Mukei Yakou and Ryumei with her Shura Mandala Taikyoku were able to do so, which just implies that Awaumi was stronger than Ryumei without Taikyoku who is rated as a Tier 5 on Masada's ranking.

And if we're using scans from Avesta of Black and White, we have Bahlavan, who is strong enough to destroy Nadare completely before all of his powerups from fighting Magsarion. He's a mortal who can never become a Gudou God yet can still destroy Nadare, who is the only pseudo Gudou God in Mitra's world, the same status as the Tenma who are also pseudo gods.

I don't understand how is this even relevant to your point: all Archdemons are Tier 6 (therefore, if you're trying to argue for Tier 7 Nadare, sorry but that's not the case here), therefore Bahlavan being able to completely obliterate Nadare at the gathas of Volume 1 is fine.

 

[PrinceofPein]

Have to disagree for the time being due to the translation of K3's scans are just the same old TL that you can find on the internet years ago (and they are extremely OUTDATED). Notify me if you guys can fix them with better TL.

No they are not outdated and getting it officially TL are the same thing and hence why the raws are there, anyone is welcome to verify the TL and see if they are wrong or add or remove anything. So I don't see the reason for this post.

Fyi, It's not called time armor, it'sMugen Kannadzuki and the scan does not say he doesn't have it. It's just weakened. You are vehement in denying what the text explicitly says.

I already said I do not see your point, you said it is not called time armour, sorry but you saying the japanese name does not change the english meaning and what we call it in english.
Please do read K3, someone already dropped a scan telling you he does not have the time armour.

Oh yeah, as if pseudo gudou gods like Soujirou under Hajun's control show anything related to Hajun's law in his law of being the ultimate sword. Mind you, pseudo-god Soujirou under Hajun's control is explicitly stronger than actual Gudou God Soujirou. His profile in the game for pseudo god Soujirou does have Taikyoku. I repeat, it's up to you to prove pseudo gods don't have divine powers automatically due to their connection to their god

Not the argument, try again. The point is this pseudo gods are not 1-A automatically only through the skill or divine power granted by their gods law. And yes Awaumi is someone who has none. Prove he does, literally read the fight again.

That's for you to prove he doesn't since all Tenmas under Yato have Taikyoku. Explain why he's the exception for not having Taikyoku which you have not done since.

Glad someone already dropped a scan explaining that

I repeat, I don't care about Nadare's immortality, I care about Bahlavan being able to affect and interact with her. Her dying or not does not matter in the slightest bit when that's an argument you introduced, not me. So I will not argue on this matter any further.

She is a daeva and not a god. Her immortality is due to her being a nadare in mithra world. Directly protected till all daevas are dead.

And seeing as arguing this points are pointless, I will not be replying again as your points are either wrong(awaumi) or misplaced(nadare). Like all your arguments are trivial

 

[Tarang123]

And yeah I agree with 1A even if I wish the pages had been explored better.

To add onto it, I think the argument of whether the R>F transcendence is literal in the Akuro thing literally does NOT matter at all, and the fact that we're debating on irrelevant things at all is a little bit silly. The thread literally just started

The point of the scans is that it gives an idea of how higher dimensions work, phases in physics. Whether they're literal in this context doesn't really matter as there are plenty of other scans that involve these concepts whether it's the reality > fiction transcendences (DI already has a bunch of showcases of this), conceptual bs, etc.

If you really want to challenge the 1A rating, you have to really challenge the validity of the core of the argument, not make silly nitpicks that don't really mean anything.

Just wanted to add that

 

[Legacy30]

He doesn't have Taikyoku, he's literally stated to be powerless by Akuro

Powerless in being that he does not have his old power because his craving was to be Reinhard. With Reinhard dead, he cannot display that kind of power anymore and would then have to rely on being enhanced by Yato's legion enforcement to protect Yato's territory. This is before the entire story of Kajiri Kamui Kagura occurred and therefore no one has tried to invade Yato's territory yet. That only happens after Ryumei reincarnates in Hajun's world to lead the invasions.

Doesn't change much given how he was defeated by a mere spell of Yakou that just manipulates celestial bodies. Also, he's literally at the edge of Yato's territory, therefore near a world in which individuals like the Yatsukahagi would die: it wouldn't make much sense for him to have Taikyoku or to be as strong as the rest of the Yatsukahagi (iirc Ryumei even points out the difference between him and the Tenmas of Edo, might re-check later).

Except the scan I sent says this Yakou who killed Awaumi does have Taikyoku.

I don't see any problem with Soujirou being able to a mere Tier 5/6 being (according to Masada's ranking) given how Gods are Tier 7. Hell, Awaumi's death didn't even make Yato feel physical pain, just mental pain due to the loss of a part of his world. I would also like to add that your scan doesn't say that a person with Taikyoku is required to defeat Awaumi, but only that Mukei Yakou and Ryumei with her Shura Mandala Taikyoku were able to do so, which just implies that Awaumi was stronger than Ryumei without Taikyoku who is rated as a Tier 5 on Masada's ranking.

I don't understand how is this even relevant to your point: all Archdemons are Tier 6 (therefore, if you're trying to argue for Tier 7 Nadare, sorry but that's not the case here), therefore Bahlavan being able to completely obliterate Nadare at the gathas of Volume 1 is fine.

Except the Eastern Expedition team are tier 4 and the Yatsukahagi are tier 6. Didn't Ryumei say Awaumi was also part of Yatsukahagi?

I can't say anything about the rarity of Pantheon yet as it's all about balance, but if I were to simply rank them by strength (強さ), I'd rank them at the following seven ranks in my image.

• 1) Spinne
• 2) Riza/Lisa, Sakuya (咲耶)
• 3) Kei (螢), Rusalka, Know, Ryuusui (龍水)
• 4) Wilhelm, Beatrice, Trifa, Eastern Expedition Main Forces (東征軍主力), Yomi
• 5) Machina, Eleonore, Schreiber, Lot, Ryuumei (龍明), DI: Pantheon Protagonist
• 6) Methuselah, Yatsukahagi Legion, Angel and Demons (Dust Angels), Seven Demon Kings, Hirume
• 7) Hadou and Gudou Gods

Your scan of Yato being in pain from losing Awaumi explicitly says he is a part of Yato's world/legion and therefore a part of Yato's law.
Bahlavan can affect psuedo god Nadare, who logically must have Taikyoku. Bahlavan, who is barred from becoming a psuedo gudou god, much less an actual gudou god, can affect and break the body of Nadare who is the only pseudo gudou god in Mitra's world. Just because they exist in the same tier doesn't mean it can justify a mortal who doesn't have Taikyoku being able to affect a being with Taikyoku and would therefore serve as an antifeat to the whole R>F transcendence. As a matter of fact, the Yatsukahagi who are pseudo gods and do have taikyoku are tier 6.

Btw, here's a translation of the scan done by Qliphoth in the translation request thread.

Q: The Yatsukahagi become stronger due to Yatou's Legion Reincarnation, yet the Umibozu (The Priest and the children) were easily taken down compared to the others. Why is that?

A: First things first, as anyone who has read Dies knows, they weren't that close to Yatou to begin with. Second, Awaumi was at the very ends of Yatou's domain. To put it short and direct, the Umibozu had more freedom than the other Tenma's so they were able to get the frontlines. But as a result, the blessing of Muzan Kannazaki is weakened and that was how he was taken down. Furthermore, Yakou's entire existence is an anomaly. Were he, who has reached Taikyoku as a result of being Hajun's stand-in not been there, the Umibozu would have not been stopped unless Ryuumei used the self-destruct technique she used in Tougairyuu. And without Ryuumei, they would have all fallen at Fuwa-no-Seki.

 

[PrinceofPein]

Made only arguments for 1-A, using just explanation of what the terms are. I forget it is not that simple with shinza.

Point now is that shinza should be made a staff thread, it is easy for it to get derailed

 

[N1kBud0]

Powerless in being that he does not have his old power because his craving was to be Reinhard. With Reinhard dead, he cannot display that kind of power anymore and would then have to rely on being enhanced by Yato's legion enforcement to protect Yato's territory. This is before the entire story of Kajiri Kamui Kagura occurred and therefore no one has tried to invade Yato's territory yet. That only happens after Ryumei reincarnates in Hajun's world to lead the invasions.

Except the scan I sent says this Yakou who killed Awaumi does have Taikyoku.

Except the Eastern Expedition team are tier 4 and the Yatsukahagi are tier 6. Didn't Ryumei say Awaumi was also part of Yatsukahagi?

Your scan of Yato being in pain from losing Awaumi explicitly says he is a part of Yato's world/legion and therefore a part of Yato's law.
Bahlavan can affect psuedo god Nadare, who logically must have Taikyoku. Bahlavan, who is barred from becoming a psuedo gudou god, much less an actual gudou god, can affect and break the body of Nadare who is the only pseudo gudou god in Mitra's world. Just because they exist in the same tier doesn't mean it can justify a mortal who doesn't have Taikyoku being able to affect a being with Taikyoku and would therefore serve as an antifeat to the whole R>F transcendence. As a matter of fact, the Yatsukahagi who are pseudo gods and do have taikyoku are tier 6.

Btw, here's a translation of the scan done by Qliphoth in the translation request thread.

Being a pseudo-god doesn't always mean have Taikyoku tho. Look at Reinhard's legion for example, when his Atziluth is active they are all pseudo-gods yet none of them have Taikyoku

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

Following. I am somewhat interested in the series so will try to give input later when I'm free.

 

[Mugen-Kokutosho-Jigoku]

Powerless in being that he does not have his old power because his craving was to be Reinhard. With Reinhard dead, he cannot display that kind of power anymore and would then have to rely on being enhanced by Yato's legion enforcement to protect Yato's territory.

Yes, however Akuro also comments on how weak and instable he is, to the point where he even says to Ryumei that she shouldn't go to meet him (she also refuses because Awaumi was a traitor of Shura Mandala all along but that's another thing), so its not only about the Divine Vessel being destroyed, but also about the fact that he's really weak in this state. Also, do i need to remind you that the same dude who made this statement made a bigger impact by simply appearing at Fuwa-no-Seki than the one created by Yakou's attack that one-shotted Awaumi?

Except the scan I sent says this Yakou who killed Awaumi does have Taikyoku.

Ok, doesn't affect my point in any way.

Except the Eastern Expedition team are tier 4 and the Yatsukahagi are tier 6. Didn't Ryumei say Awaumi was also part of Yatsukahagi?

No, she literally said the opposite lol. Also, Yatsukahagi without Taikyoku activated are Tier 6 (with the exceptions of Sukuna, Ootake and Yato because of obvious reasons).

Your scan of Yato being in pain from losing Awaumi explicitly says he is a part of Yato's world/legion and therefore a part of Yato's law.

Ok....so? That's like saying that since Kegais are basically Yato's tears of blood, that means they are God level beings when they are simply bear-sized spiders who can't even get past Yakou's barrier unless an army of thousands upon thousands of them is created. Being a part of someone's law doesn't imply much tbh, especially if that someone receives a very weak blessing.

Bahlavan can affect psuedo god Nadare, who logically must have Taikyoku.

No, i literally said that she's not a Tier 7. Also, without the birth of multiple universes, Gudō Gods cannot exist, therefore your point is completely irrelevant (and also unrelated to the main topic).

Bahlavan, who is barred from becoming a psuedo gudou god, much less an actual gudou god, can affect and break the body of Nadare who is the only pseudo gudou god in Mitra's world.

Bahlavan is a Gudō God candidate, as soon as multiple universes would have came into existence he would have become one. I already addressed your argument so there's no point in refuting it again.

Just because they exist in the same tier doesn't mean it can justify a mortal who doesn't have Taikyoku being able to affect a being with Taikyoku and would therefore serve as an antifeat to the whole R>F transcendence.

I seriously fail to understand your point: the Eastern Expedition's main forces are rated as Tier 4, while Awaumi is a Tier 5 (or a very very weak Tier 6). The rest of this part already got addressed before so no point in answering it again.

As a matter of fact, the Yatsukahagi who are pseudo gods and do have taikyoku are tier 6.

Already addressed this part

 

[Tarang123]

Bahlavan can affect psuedo god Nadare, who logically must have Taikyoku. Bahlavan, who is barred from becoming a psuedo gudou god, much less an actual gudou god, can affect and break the body of Nadare who is the only pseudo gudou god in Mitra's world. Just because they exist in the same tier doesn't mean it can justify a mortal who doesn't have Taikyoku being able to affect a being with Taikyoku and would therefore serve as an antifeat to the whole R>F transcendence. As a matter of fact, the Yatsukahagi who are pseudo gods and do have taikyoku are tier 6.

Wait is it even stated that Nadare has taikyoku or anything resembling that? Because that doesn't seem to be proven at all. there are a few characters that are basically confirmed to have the capability of becoming Gods, and I don't remember Nadare being one of them. So either this is just an assumption due to her being a pseudo god (an unfounded one at that considering that most pseudo gods don't have any taikyoku whatsoever), or you're just pulling it out your ass.

It's pretty consistent that beings with taikyoku cannot be harmed by anyone that lacks it. Hell, one of the scans that was criticized earlier blatantly states this. This isn't necessarily because of just a power difference like in something like dragon ball, but because they literally exist at a level outside the bounds of creation. This should be common knowledge and it's very consistent.

 

[PhantomØ4]

That blog is so not concise and formatted badly... there's so much information irrelevant for the sake of tiering to 1-A or tier 1 in general. I feel bad for anyone who is gonna have to read it.

I do think it's funny the blog calls the allegedly "1-A" realm hyper-dimensional and higher dimensional which contradicts trying to argue it is not just a dimensional difference.

 

[BoastJr]

Snip

My thoughts exactly. It feels abit rushed or badly formatted.

I will just wait and see what others think although I have seen other 1A arguments offsite. Best not to be hasty for now.

 

[LamentSatanael]

@PrinceofPein Should make it a staff thread since some of the arguments on one side I see don't even make sense at all or hold any credence to them, they were pointed out. This is to ensure the main points and arguments made for/against them don't get buried under the rubble, more or less.

 

[Legacy30]

Being a pseudo-god doesn't always mean have Taikyoku tho. Look at Reinhard's legion for example, when his Atziluth is active they are all pseudo-gods yet none of them have Taikyoku

Wasn't it Eleonore who hyped up herself and the three commanders to be up to Aztiluth rank in Rea route after Reinhard was completed?

Yes, however Akuro also comments on how weak and instable he is, to the point where he even says to Ryumei that she shouldn't go to meet him (she also refuses because Awaumi was a traitor of Shura Mandala all along but that's another thing), so its not only about the Divine Vessel being destroyed, but also about the fact that he's really weak in this state. Also, do i need to remind you that the same dude who made this statement made a bigger impact by simply appearing at Fuwa-no-Seki than the one created by Yakou's attack that one-shotted Awaumi?

The difference in impact does not matter at all to my original argument. Him being weak in that state, having the lower half of body gone, does not really negate that he's clearly not powerless anymore when he can fend off the Eastern Expedition team barring Yakou who does have Taikyoku and Ryumei if does her suicide attack.

No, she literally said the opposite lol. Also, Yatsukahagi without Taikyoku activated are Tier 6 (with the exceptions of Sukuna, Ootake and Yato because of obvious reasons).

Well thank you for reminding me, I just opened up the game and found the quote I was looking for. And nothing says the Yatsukahagi with their Taikyoku inactivated are the ones in tier 6. In fact, the entire quote about the R > F difference with Akuro happens before Akuro and Morei activate their Taikyoku in Fuwa-no-Seki.

Ok....so? That's like saying that since Kegais are basically Yato's tears of blood, that means they are God level beings when they are simply bear-sized spiders who can't even get past Yakou's barrier unless an army of thousands upon thousands of them is created. Being a part of someone's law doesn't imply much tbh, especially if that someone receives a very weak blessing.

Yakou explicitly does have Taikyoku at that point, so this does not mean much. This is also disingenuous because Reinhard's army of foot solders can tear apart Ren's law in their fight in Dies Irae. Not to mention he does send out his entire army to fight Hajun no matter how futile it is in the flashback of Hajun vs the guardians of Twilight.

No, i literally said that she's not a Tier 7. Also, without the birth of multiple universes, Gudō Gods cannot exist, therefore your point is completely irrelevant (and also unrelated to the main topic).

My point is not about gudou gods or how they cannot be born due to the condition of the world or whatever. This stuff is entirely irrelevant. My point, is that Bahlavan is restricted from ever becoming a gudou god and thus is restricted from ever having divine power. A mortal character who has no Taikyoku can affect a being who does possess Taikyoku. Who wins or not, who is a god or not, none of these are my arguments. It's simply that a character with no Taikyoku was able to affect another character that does have Taikyoku.

Alright, let's make it simpler. List out all of the psuedo gods who don't have Taikyoku/divine power. Because people like to mention these characters a lot to counter my argument.

 

[Tarang123]

To add onto it, I think the argument of whether the R>F transcendence is literal in the Akuro thing literally does NOT matter at all, and the fact that we're debating on irrelevant things at all is a little bit silly. The thread literally just started

The point of the scans is that it gives an idea of how higher dimensions work, phases in physics. Whether they're literal in this context doesn't really matter as there are plenty of other scans that involve these concepts whether it's the reality > fiction transcendences (DI already has a bunch of showcases of this), conceptual bs, etc.

If you really want to challenge the 1A rating, you have to really challenge the validity of the core of the argument, not make silly nitpicks that don't really mean anything.

Also i just HAVE to point this out again, because it's so very crucial. If you're going to make arguments against the ratings, they should be specific, so as to not clutter up the thread with useless comments

 

[Tarang123]

Wasn't it Eleonore who hyped up herself and the three commanders to be up to Aztiluth rank in Rea route after Reinhard was completed?

doesn't mean she has taikyoku though. Machina explicitly says they don't, which is why they can't paint over the singularity.

Well thank you for reminding me, I just opened up the game and found the quote I was looking for. And nothing says the Yatsukahagi with their Taikyoku inactivated are the ones in tier 6. In fact, the entire quote about the R > F difference with Akuro happens before Akuro and Morei activate their Taikyoku in Fuwa-no-Seki.

Why would it not be with their taikyoku inactivated? I feel it's a bit strange considering once they use their taikyoku they're basically just Gods at that point.

My point is not about gudou gods or how they cannot be born due to the condition of the world or whatever. This stuff is entirely irrelevant. My point, is that Bahlavan is restricted from ever becoming a gudou god and thus is restricted from ever having divine power. A mortal character who has no Taikyoku can affect a being who does possess Taikyoku. Who wins or not, who is a god or not, none of these are my arguments. It's simply that a character with no Taikyoku was able to affect another character that does have Taikyoku.

But Nadare doesn't have Taikyoku. Only a few characters in Avesta do and Nadare was never stated to be one of them. Hell, doesn't she even state she isn't a god nor does she have those abilities? If anything, the fact that a non-god could even affect her instead of being instantly overwritten by her "law" should have proven that she isn't a taikyoku user.

Alright, let's make it simpler. List out all of the psuedo gods who don't have Taikyoku/divine power. Because people like to mention these characters a lot to counter my argument.

Everyone who isn't a Yatsukahagi or part of the EE and maybe a few of the Demon Kings

 

[Tarang123]

Wasn't it Eleonore who hyped up herself and the three commanders to be up to Aztiluth rank in Rea route after Reinhard was completed?

Also notice the "in a way". Wasn't this in Rea's route, where they literally got wiped out with literally no difficulty whatsoever by Ren? How is this a feat

 

[PrinceofPein]

Now I am back on PC; mobile is a curse on this site.
@Legacy30 If you have any arguments against 1-A, please list them properly and concisely. Your arguments are all over the place and wrong
Nadare does not have taikyoku or any divine power that is 1-A level aside from her immortality(which is not 1-A btw, but rather a law for all nadare), which comes with a rule. so that's a moot point
Tenma Awaumi does not have time armour, which is the 1-A thing Yato's law grants; hence, his getting affected is not an anti-feat for Yato.

 

[Legacy30]

doesn't mean she has taikyoku though. Machina explicitly says they don't, which is why they can't paint over the singularity.

They have Taikyoku due to Reinhard's blessing, not that they themselves own any Taikyoku by their own power. They are Aztiluth level due to Reinhard's blessing, the scan I sent said so.

Why would it not be with their taikyoku inactivated? I feel it's a bit strange considering once they use their taikyoku they're basically just Gods at that point.

But Nadare doesn't have Taikyoku. Only a few characters in Avesta do and Nadare was never stated to be one of them. Hell, doesn't she even state she isn't a god nor does she have those abilities? If anything, the fact that a non-god could even affect her instead of being instantly overwritten by her "law" should have proven that she isn't a taikyoku user.


Everyone who isn't a Yatsukahagi or part of the EE and maybe a few of the Demon Kings

Let's put it this way, do you see Tenma Tokoyo in tier 6, without Taikyoku activated, being able to defeat someone like Machina in tier 5?

Everyone and you didn't mention those who are explicitly called pseudo gods. Really helpful. This would work way faster if you just mention these psuedo gods by name. Also, Nadare is a psuedo gudou god, she said so herself, what do you mean overwrite someone with her law? That's not what gudou does. Also, nobody in Avesta is a pseudo god besides Nadare. You have Hadou and Gugou god candidates but they themselves are not pseudo gods. In fact, the entry of psuedo gudou god was only revealed after Nadare revealed herself to be one in her fight with Magsarion.

Also notice the "in a way". Wasn't this in Rea's route, where they literally got wiped out with literally no difficulty whatsoever by Ren? How is this a feat

Ren was getting his ass kicked until he became Aztiluth rank after reconnecting with Marie midfight and then he low-diffed them. Even in that state, he could still lose to Machina without the intervention from Rusulka.

 

[LamentSatanael]

Also notice the "in a way". Wasn't this in Rea's route, where they literally got wiped out with literally no difficulty whatsoever by Ren? How is this a feat

Expanding on this, they got wiped the moment Ren used Eine Faust Finale. Ren didn't even paint them at that point, only made use of B'riah since he actively went out of his way to ensure he does not repaint everything over, where he hints otherwise he could easily beat them all anyway and even without that, he did. This is just taking one statement out from the flesh and ignoring everything that transpired later, as for the other parts; I'd leave them to Mugen and xipheria respectively. If they don't, I'll see to it myself.