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Cookie Run 1-A - Realm of Apathy

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I'm unsure about this, I will wait for someone like Ultima Reality.
 
If this is accepted, I'm pretty sure everyone in-verse will be Immeasurable speed. (MFTL+ 1A beings is crazy)
 
Ar1216789 said:
The world here is obviously talking about more than the universe, if it were the highest of the universe, that wouldn't make sense. (Seeing as it would be a universe in a universe?)
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There are already universes – or at least pocket realities – within universes in CookieRun. There can be many worlds within a single universe, as proven by the likes of the Pancake Tower. It's not even kind of a stretch for it to still be 'within' the universe's confines, in a way.
 
Ar1216789 said:
2nd Try at 1-A Cookie Run. A mod told me this could be 1-A, so why not do a CRT.


The Realm of Apathy is described to be a world of nothingness, a world where every Cookie is set free of burden.
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Re-reading upon this scan, the entire passage revolves around flowery language and doesn't really takes things to a literal sense. A "world of nothingness" seems more like a pretentious way to insinuate that all of the wordly wishes made aren't real and rather illusionary, and that worldly desires aren't permanent thus all of it will disappear one day. "A perfect world" is rather the world she sees were every cookie is free from burden, therefore an anology of "perfection" from her own perspective, therefore why it said "a perfect world of her provision".
Ar1216789 said:
Mystic Flour Cookie states it is a world of pure nothingness, and that everything must disappear to make room for true nothingness.
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Can you show more of that passage? It's far better to provide entire screenshots and highlight the keywords, rather than unnecessarily cropping it to the point it appears to be an out of context fallacy.
Ar1216789 said:
The Realm of Apathy is cut off from reality, it stands as the highest point of existence, and those who have achieved enlightenment and have transcended to this realm were described to have transcended all. Worldly possessions hold no power there, and it is described to be above time given the way Mystic Flour Cookie describes it, as well as setting oneself from the cycle of being baked and crumbled, a cycle akin to a state of Nirvana. In the Realm of Apathy, all meaning is lost and Mystic Flour erases all ideas and thought. In a state where one becomes unshackled by everything. Mystic Flour Cookie created a land unshackled by everything, creating a land free of limitation in a state of transcendence, and setting oneself free from the cycle. Everything disappears to make room for true nothingness and become unshackled by everything. The inhabitants of the Realm of Apathy have also stated to have achieved everything.
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I already gone through all of this in your Q and A thread before. Nirvana and "transcending all" as a void, is indeed a placeholder for qualitative superiority, but as I said before, I have yet to see a description that indeed says it undoubtably transcends the entire Cookie Run universe. And not to mention it was said to be "the roof of the world", which somewhat implies its actually within space-time, hence could something that eliminates the possibility of the Apathy Realm being qualitative superior. I don't mind if these can be the basis of arguments for Abstract Existence Type 1 for the Mystic Flour Cookie, Conceptual Manipulation (Type 2) via creating the Apathy Realm and Nonduality (Type 1) via transcending the cycle of rebirth or achieving Nirvana. I'm really iffy about the Apathy Realm being a true world of nothingness from my arguments above; I'm also unsure about the part where certains concepts becomes devoid in the Apathy Realm, as there's difference with being unbound to it and truly not existing; saying that the Apathy Realm has lost its meaning can easily be inferred as another case of flowery language, insinuating the cookies who achieved Nirvana and ascended to the realm hence losing their sense of meaning, rather than assuming the Realm is devoid of any meaning.
Ar1216789 said:
Miscenallenous Notable things.

So, the realm is a void of nothingness, transcending space and time, standing at the highest point of existence above all where abstract concepts and meaning become irrelevant and is above the Physical Realm.

Matching the 1-A description according to the VSBW's Tiering System, as well as matching the nature of 1-A structures.

Tl;dr: Mystic Flour erases everything to make room for true nothingness, in a state where one becomes unshackled by everything in a state of transcendence above all person and thing, the realm is the highest point of existence, above all. Those who entered this realm were described to have achieved everything as well.




Agree: @ActuallySpaceMan42 (STAFF) @Chris_faritsu @Astral_Trinity439 @Digital_Franz @Shiedaisthepeak @Infinitinet @Sebas-S.P-san
Disagree:
Neutral: @IdiosyncraticLawyer (STAFF) (Waiting on Ultima's response) @DarkDragonMedeus (STAFF) (Waiting on Ultima's response)
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Yeah, uh, overall I don't really see much of this can be 1-A, currently. I don't think this is Low 1-C either; simply stating it "transcends all", "cut from reality" or "highest point of the world" doesn't necessarily make it land on a scale of a higher infinity.
 
GarrixianXD said:
Re-reading upon this scan, the entire passage revolves around flowery language and doesn't really takes things to a literal sense. A "world of nothingness" seems more like a pretentious way to insinuate that all of the wordly wishes made aren't real and rather illusionary, and that worldly desires aren't permanent thus all of it will disappear one day. "A perfect world" is rather the world she sees were every cookie is free from burden, therefore an anology of "perfection" from her own perspective, therefore why it said "a perfect world of her provision".
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We see the world of nothingness in-game. We also see her turn everything to nothing, it aligns with her Greater Goal of apathy, in guiding everyone to enlightenment and creating a land unshackled by everything. There's multiple scans reinforcing the existence of this realm. Also, Mystic Flour herself is non-exisistent. Which she describes in her enlightenment as returning to nothing as if you never existed in the first place. (Rewatch the video I uploaded) Did you not see the whole part where everyone & everything associated with them was literally erased? It's not all talk; it actually happened.

More evidence is supported from the world of nothingness statements.

GarrixianXD said:
Can you show more of that passage? It's far better to provide entire screenshots and highlight the keywords, rather than unnecessarily cropping it to the point it appears to be an out of context fallacy.
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It's Mystic Flour Cookies quotes. It isn't in-story. It's her game character, once you click on it you can see several quotes. This is where I got those 2 quotes from. We also see her do it in game.
GarrixianXD said:
I already gone through all of this in your Q and A thread before. Nirvana and "transcending all" as a void, is indeed a placeholder for qualitative superiority, but as I said before, I have yet to see a description that indeed says it undoubtably transcends the entire Cookie Run universe. And not to mention it was said to be "the roof of the world", which somewhat implies its actually within space-time, hence could something that eliminates the possibility of the Apathy Realm being qualitative superior. I don't mind if these can be the basis of arguments for Abstract Existence Type 1 for the Mystic Flour Cookie, Conceptual Manipulation (Type 2) via creating the Apathy Realm and Nonduality (Type 1) via transcending the cycle of rebirth or achieving Nirvana. I'm really iffy about the Apathy Realm being a true world of nothingness from my arguments above; I'm also unsure about the part where certains concepts becomes devoid in the Apathy Realm, as there's difference with being unbound to it and truly not existing; saying that the Apathy Realm has lost its meaning can easily be inferred as another case of flowery language, insinuating the cookies who achieved Nirvana and ascended to the realm hence losing their sense of meaning, rather than assuming the Realm is devoid of any meaning.
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The fact Mystic Flour Cookie is above time eliminates the idea of a space-time. You can't apply something spatio-temporal to a realm thats nothingness. The roof of the world is an expression to say it's the highest point of existence, because the Realm of Apathy transcends the normal universe because it requires transcendence to reach it, it's also cut off from reality, which is why it's not the highest point of a universe, rather all of existence. The inhabitants of the Realm of Apathy should be unshackled by abstract concepts. Mystic Flour talks about setting yourself free of ideas, and that the land is unshackled by everything, and that they achieved everything. It talks about a state of Apathy akin to Nirvana where one escapes the cycle, and transcends all. Also, what more is needed in order to express it transcends the normal universe, it needs transcendence to attain it, its cut off from reality, and its inhabitants transcended all.

Given that it's above the lower reality rather than inferior, I think 1-A is applicable.

Now, the "all meaning is lost" statement is implied by Dark Cacao Cookie, who opposed Mystic Flour Cookie. He would have no reason to say this in a sense of flowerly language. The all meaning is lost also aligns with her apathy. As seen in the world-consuming apathy video. (See below)


Summarize of her whole ideology: Mystic Flour Cookie guides everyone to enlightenment through the elimination of all that matters, she describes this as losing their individuality, personality, way of speaking, etc. The world of nothingness, where every Cookie is set free of burden. In a state where they become unshackled by everything, and transcend all.

Please watch this video. I've time-stamped it, watch it until the world-consuming apathy part is completed.
 
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Ar1216789 said:
We see the world of nothingness in-game. We also see her turn everything to nothing, it aligns with her Greater Goal of apathy, in guiding everyone to enlightenment and creating a land unshackled by everything. There's multiple scans reinforcing the existence of this realm. Also, Mystic Flour herself is non-exisistent. Which she describes in her enlightenment as returning to nothing as if you never existed in the first place. (Rewatch the video I uploaded) Did you not see the whole part where everyone & everything associated with them was literally erased? It's not all talk; it actually happened.
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I see where you're coming from. I assume that you meant the images that have shown to have dreams, and hopes that made the cookies have vanished. That isn't 1-A but rather the concepts that made up the cookies were erased -- can be classified as type 3 concept erasure iirc; not to mention that if the Mystic Flour Cookie really has erased everyone and everything, thus having said to "create this world of shimmering white fog where all meaning is loss", it logically lines up that the Realm of Apathy was created from erasing all things rather than creating it out of nothingness. Being unshackled by everything is a concept of Nirvana of being unbounded by restrictions of your inner heart, such being that you pretty much wouldn't give a shit about anything, hence pretty much you're mentally and spiritually unbounded by such things, but it doesn't mean that those things cannot hurt you. Simply be said that "unshackled by everything" doesn't necessarily make you qualitatively superior.
Ar1216789 said:
More evidence is supported from the world of nothingness statements.


It's Mystic Flour Cookies quotes. It isn't in-story. It's her game character, once you click on it you can see several quotes. This is where I got those 2 quotes from. We also see her do it in game.
Click to expand...
Alright.
Ar1216789 said:
The fact Mystic Flour Cookie is above time eliminates the idea of a space-time. You can't apply something spatio-temporal to a realm thats nothingness. The roof of the world is an expression to say it's the highest point of existence, because the Realm of Apathy transcends the normal universe because it requires transcendence to reach it, it's also cut off from reality, which is why it's not the highest point of a universe, rather all of existence. The inhabitants of the Realm of Apathy should be unshackled by abstract concepts. Mystic Flour talks about setting yourself free of ideas, and that the land is unshackled by everything, and that they achieved everything. It talks about a state of Apathy akin to Nirvana where one escapes the cycle, and transcends all. Also, what more is needed in order to express it transcends the normal universe, it needs transcendence to attain it, its cut off from reality, and its inhabitants transcended all.
Click to expand...
The Realm of Apathy is reached through Nirvana, reaching enlightenment and thus being freed from all types of worldly affairs and burdens, or any aspects that constitute your character and personality, hence making you "apathetic" and embodying "apathy". Which technically, is classified as "transcendence" under that particular context. That does not have anything to do with qualitative transcendence. Looking upon your scan, "transcendence" under that context subtly indicates letting go of concepts and ideas rather than actually being unbound and unaffected by them. There's a difference by not believing and letting go of a notion, and being completely unaffected by it.

"Achieving everything" as a context itself, doesn't really indicate much. Even if it's tied with "transcending all" and the World of Nothingness truly being a void, it still creates a lot of room for doubt for it being 1-A.
Ar1216789 said:
Given that it's above the lower reality rather than inferior, I think 1-A is applicable.

Now, the "all meaning is lost" statement is implied by Dark Cacao Cookie, who opposed Mystic Flour Cookie. He would have no reason to say this in a sense of flowerly language. The all meaning is lost also aligns with her apathy. As seen in the world-consuming apathy video. (See below)
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"All meaning is lost" being aligned with her apathy is exactly where the issue revolves. The Apathy Realm is a realm where all meaning is lost and connects to the inhabitants of its realm, reaching Nirvana and letting go of all affairs and burdens which enact effect upon their character, as well as any concepts that constitute their character -- all of it serves as a premise for "Apathy" of the world itself, and hence can be concluded as flowery language, that the term "Apathy" refers to everyone being entirely submerged into apathy (causing "nothing to matter" to them), or the entire Realm revolves around the fundamental concept of Apathy. Even if it was the latter, there's still room for doubt which I'll explain in my next argument.
Ar1216789 said:
Summarize of her whole ideology: Mystic Flour Cookie guides everyone to enlightenment through the elimination of all that matters, she describes this as losing their individuality, personality, way of speaking, etc. The world of nothingness, where every Cookie is set free of burden. In a state where they become unshackled by everything, and transcend all.

Please watch this video. I've time-stamped it, watch it until the world-consuming apathy part is completed.
Click to expand...
Even with all I asserted aside, with the Realm of Apathy being a true world of nothingness (aka a void) and all concepts that matter being truly erased, the basis of 1-A will still be shaky. Yeah, sure, there are statements where it was said the Mystic Flour Cookie "transcended all things" and "achieved everything", that right there doesn't really have sufficient context itself and shouldn't be taken at face value. The term "transcending all things" is highly metaphorical and could simply mean that you surpassed all things in a particular reality or plane of existence, that other inhabitants are burdened by, especially also taking in the "achieved everything" part which could line up those 2 scans -- hints more that the Mystic Flour Cookie achieved everything (Nirvana, being burdened by nothing), therefore transcended such crucial concepts of the Cookie Run Universe that'll otherwise be bound to the other inhabitants of it. That said, it can be a valid line of logic which doesn't describe a 1-A Realm of Apathy.

Overall, my stance on this hasn't changed much.
 
GarrixianXD said:
I see where you're coming from. I assume that you meant the images that have shown to have dreams, and hopes that made the cookies have vanished. That isn't 1-A but rather the concepts that made up the cookies were erased -- can be classified as type 3 concept erasure iirc; not to mention that if the Mystic Flour Cookie really has erased everyone and everything, thus having said to "create this world of shimmering white fog where all meaning is loss", it logically lines up that the Realm of Apathy was created from erasing all things rather than creating it out of nothingness. Being unshackled by everything is a concept of Nirvana of being unbounded by restrictions of your inner heart, such being that you pretty much wouldn't give a shit about anything, hence pretty much you're mentally and spiritually unbounded by such things, but it doesn't mean that those things cannot hurt you. Simply be said that "unshackled by everything" doesn't necessarily make you qualitatively superior.
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A realm of free limitation is a component of the Formless Realms, where her Realm of Apathy is based of. I don't know where you got the idea that it was created by all things. The Realm Of Apathy was created by Mystic Flour's enlightenment, using her powers, she created the realm. She didn't create it from erasing all things. It was never shown nor stated. Mystic Flour Cookie's realm is free of limitation, the unshackled by everything wouldn't make sense "spiritually" and "mentally" in Cookie Run's case, with the whole apathetic situation going on. Keep in mind they are devoid of everything, from wordly-related things to personalities, etc. Mystic Flour has no soul and mind. The whole "unshackled by everything" goes with the Formless Realms being free of limitaton.

GarrixianXD said:
The Realm of Apathy is reached through Nirvana, reaching enlightenment and thus being freed from all types of worldly affairs and burdens, or any aspects that constitute your character and personality, hence making you "apathetic" and embodying "apathy". Which technically, is classified as "transcendence" under that particular context. That does not have anything to do with qualitative transcendence. Looking upon your scan, "transcendence" under that context subtly indicates letting go of concepts and ideas rather than actually being unbound and unaffected by them. There's a difference by not believing and letting go of a notion, and being completely unaffected by it.
Click to expand...
They are quite literally non-existent. As seen in the video. They quite literally returned to nothing, the entire world became "a void of pure white." Thus erasing every person and think, becoming "unshackled by everything" and "transcended all." They are devoid of everything and the void of nothingness is devoid of everything.

It talks about letting go and becoming free of their limitation - unshackled by everything - which is why it explains a state of transcendence reinforced by multiple scans and the fact the Realm of Apathy is reached through the "Flour Peak of Transcendence".

GarrixianXD said:
"Achieving everything" as a context itself, doesn't really indicate much. Even if it's tied with "transcending all" and the World of Nothingness truly being a void, it still creates a lot of room for doubt for it being 1-A.
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You can forget about the "achieving everything" statement for now since its kind of vague, and the statement contradicts itself.
GarrixianXD said:
"All meaning is lost" being aligned with her apathy is exactly where the issue revolves. The Apathy Realm is a realm where all meaning is lost and connects to the inhabitants of its realm, reaching Nirvana and letting go of all affairs and burdens which enact effect upon their character, as well as any concepts that constitute their character -- all of it serves as a premise for "Apathy" of the world itself, and hence can be concluded as flowery language, that the term "Apathy" refers to everyone being entirely submerged into apathy (causing "nothing to matter" to them), or the entire Realm revolves around the fundamental concept of Apathy. Even if it was the latter, there's still room for doubt which I'll explain in my next argument.
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The all meaning is lost statement isn't that fundamental to the scale. Despite the Realm revolving around the fundamental concept of apathy, there's more to it than apathy, as stated by the Dumpling Immortals and Peach Blossom Cookie. Meaning becomes undefined there because they are free of it - it doesn't make sense for it to be flowery language, especially since it's taken into account from Dark Cacao Cookie's experience from the realm and the fact we see her turn everything into a void of white in the story itself, it's more than just flowery language, she's talking about everything being gone and it also doesn't come off as flowery; it's fitting for such a realm in this context. But yeah, overall, the statement doesn't hold much significance to the scale. Whether it counts or not isn't that detrimental.

GarrixianXD said:
Even with all I asserted aside, with the Realm of Apathy being a true world of nothingness (aka a void) and all concepts that matter being truly erased, the basis of 1-A will still be shaky. Yeah, sure, there are statements where it was said the Mystic Flour Cookie "transcended all things" and "achieved everything", that right there doesn't really have sufficient context itself and shouldn't be taken at face value. The term "transcending all things" is highly metaphorical and could simply mean that you surpassed all things in a particular reality or plane of existence, that other inhabitants are burdened by, especially also taking in the "achieved everything" part which could line up those 2 scans -- hints more that the Mystic Flour Cookie achieved everything (Nirvana, being burdened by nothing), therefore transcended such crucial concepts of the Cookie Run Universe that'll otherwise be bound to the other inhabitants of it. That said, it can be a valid line of logic which doesn't describe a 1-A Realm of Apathy.
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The transcending all is a weird thing for it to be metaphorical if we consider context and the whole enlightenment in Mystic Flour Cookies, considering its residents have quite literally transcended to the realm, also setting themselves free from the cycle (which is Samsara), ultimately granting them Nirvana, a state of transcendence, and they've washed themself of worldly concern and attachments. Mystic Flour Cookie transcended to the realm through the "Flour Peak of Transcendence." Peach Blossom Cookie's quote can be disregarded for now since it's vague, also the quote quite literally contradicts itself.


Also, the two quotes I showed also back up the scale, proving the worlds are seperate entities. "If you wish, I can show you a world of pure nothingness" and "Everything must disappear in order to make room for true nothingness." Which is backed up by the story itself.
 
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Honestly no clue here. The mentioning of nothingness is kinda whatever. But the transcends all things can mean something but is there more elaboration somewhere? Cuz unless it mentions a few things like all definitions of space-time or higher dimensions as a concept and such its a bit vague I think. I'm more neutral here.
 
TISSG7Redgrave said:
Honestly no clue here. The mentioning of nothingness is kinda whatever. But the transcends all things can mean something but is there more elaboration somewhere? Cuz unless it mentions a few things like all definitions of space-time or higher dimensions as a concept and such its a bit vague I think. I'm more neutral here.
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The transcending all statement is in context of her enlightenment, Mystic Flour talks about her ideologies and how she wishes to create a world unshackled by everything (see scans for this in the thread). She does this by turning the world and everything into "a void of white" ideas' were one of the things mentioned that she was gonna turn into nothing. She also says she's gonna eliminate everything that matters to guide everyone to true enlightenment. Now given that she "transcends all" and is "unshackled by everything" I think it should be enough to surpass the lower reality (given that she erases it and her realm is unshackled by it) Mystic Flour Cookie already transcended time, which has been reinforced multiple times and not vague or implying something like agelessness or dimensional travel (See scans in the thread if you wish to see this) . Also, something spatio-temporal can't be applied here. In this case it's a realm of nothingness, a void. Given that the realm is cut off from reality and requires transcendence to attain it the "transcended all" statement, I think enough to show that she surpassed the composition of the lower reality. Theres' also this statement (which isn't vague, given that she did this in the story itself, when she turned everyone and everything into "a void of white".

There's also the statement of her world having no meaning, but that statement is eh. It could be the case given her realm and how it's pure nothingness.

Now, given that she surpassed the lower composition of the lower reality, I think 1-A is applicable. It is a 1-A realm since it meets the requirements for being a Void of Nothingness among other things. The fact that it exists above all makes the case less complex, the realm also is free of restriction and one loses themself of self-identity.

Also, Nirvana.

As a default, statements of being "above dimensions" are set at Low 1-A, and the same is applied to statements indicating superiority over "All of space and time," and similar. However, if they are applied to realms that can be inferred to surpass the very composition of the lower reality (e.g. Realms that are, themselves, non-composite, such as conceptual domains, or often, voids of nothingness), then 1-A is the most appropriate rating for them.
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Furthermore, keep in mind that Type 2 Beyond-Dimensional Existence (In particular the latter variant) is not simply a combination of a non-dimensional state of existence and greater raw power than all dimensional structures in a cosmology – Though that is a necessary condition to qualify for it, it is not a sufficient one. Instead, the non-dimensional state of existence must be the direct cause of the character/realm's superiority over dimensions. A simple example being voids of nothingness that lack space, time and physicality entirely, but are nonetheless "vaster" than physical reality in some way, with common imagery being the universe as a small object encompassed in such a backdrop.
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