Shinigami Told Me This Was Immeasurable, He Is Wrong (Lille Barro Attack Speed Revision, and Small Shaz Ability Addition)

[Deceived3596]

Premise:

This thread is primarily tackling Lille Barro’s attacking speed with The X-Axis, but is also adding an ability to Shaz Domino.

Lille Barro:

Lille Barro’s attack speed with The X-Axis should be a limited form of infinite speed and I'll explain why in this section.

First we need to establish how Lille’s Schrift “The X-Axis” actually works.

Lille’s Schrift “The X-Axis” works by “uniformly penetrating anything between the muzzle of the gun and my target” (Chapter 604). It doesn’t shoot out bullets or any type of projectiles in general, it just pieces through anything between the muzzle of Lille’s gun and his target. This by itself heavily implies that attacks from Lille’s “The X-Axis” are instantaneous since he’s just uniformly penetrating anything between the muzzle of the gun and his target, he’s not releasing a projectile, which necessarily requires a quantifiable speed to travel.

This implication is heavily supported by a statement given in his fight against Shunsui, as explained by Lille Barro himself The X-Axis “penetrates all, there’s no room for such a concept as dodging to interfere with it” (Chapter 645). This explicitly implies that The X-Axis directly “penetrates all”, including speed, which inturn causes a “concept” such as dodging to be pointless in his eyes since The X-Axis isn’t something you can normally dodge because of its penetration capabilities having an effect on the speed of The X-Axis's attacks.

Now he isn’t actually affecting the concept of “dodging” itself, that’s idiotic and isn’t something i’m going to address in-depth since we all agree it’s idiotic, you can wank that shit in discord debates but not here.

Given all the evidence I’ve laid out above, the lack of anti-feats or other equal interpretations, Lille Barro should have Limited Infinite Attack Speed with The X-Axis, the reasoning behind why i’m asserting limited rather than a full rating is because we don’t have enough evidence to assert it’s capable of traveling an infinite distance. So it would be limited to the known, effective range of The X-Axis.

(Note - This would also affect Yhwach since he’s considered to have “The X-Axis”, and I’ll provide the explanation which will be placed on the profiles later)

Infinite Attack Speed (With "The X-Axis" - Lille's Schrift doesn't release a projectile or an object of quantifiable speed, rather it’s just a “penetrating force” which punches through “everything between the muzzle of Lille’s weapon and his target”. Causing something like the “concept” of dodging to be incapable of interfering with the speed of Lille’s “The X-Axis”. However this ability has a limited when it comes to its range, it doesn’t/can’t travel an infinite distance, rather it can only travel the known, effective range of Lille’s Schrift, instantaneously)

Shaz Domino:

It’s currently accepted that Shaz Domino manipulated his fundamental information with Reishi to gain a “physical reality” after having his “imaginary reality” gradually destroyed, through regeneration, meaning he should also have Information Manipulation (Type 2) since he’s capable of manipulating Reishi to a fundamental level to regenerate himself.

Simple.

Voting:

Agree: @Damage3245 (likely rating), @CloverDragon03, @LordTracer

Disagree:

Neutral:

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

I agree with this, as long as you note that the “projectile” (not a literal projectile) is what has the infinite speed, Lille still has to take time to fire the gun. Just be crystal clear with that wording so people don’t get confused.

 

[Deceived3596]

I agree with this, as long as you note that the “projectile” (not a literal projectile) is what has the infinite speed, Lille still has to take time to fire the gun. Just be crystal clear with that wording so people don’t get confused.

I will.

 

[Damage3245]

Lille’s Schrift “The X-Axis” works by “uniformly penetrating anything between the muzzle of the gun and my target” (Chapter 604). It doesn’t shoot out bullets or any type of projectiles in general, it just pieces through anything between the muzzle of Lille’s gun and his target. This by itself heavily implies that attacks from Lille’s “The X-Axis” are instantaneous since he’s just uniformly penetrating anything between the muzzle of the gun and his target, he’s not releasing a projectile, which necessarily requires said projectile to travel at a quantifiable speed.

There are no bullets that can be intercepted, but "penetrating anything" isn't the same as instantaneously affecting everything at once within his attack vector.

The "penetration" might have a finite speed; it can't be measured obviously since there's no visible projectile, but I think we'd need more to say that he can simultaneously affect everything between his muzzle and a nigh-infintie distance away.

This implication is heavily supported by a statement given in his fight against Shunsui, as explained by Lille Barro himself The X-Axis “penetrates all, there’s no room for such a concept as dodging to interfere with it” (Chapter 645). This explicitly implies that The X-Axis directly “penetrates all”, including speed, which inturn causes a “concept” such as dodging to be pointless in his eyes since The X-Axis isn’t something you can normally dodge because of its penetration capabilities having an effect on the speed of The X-Axis's attacks.

I do agree that this is supportive but I don't see the "including speed" part that you mentioned. The "no room for dodging" could because there is nothing physical to dodge. It's just a penetrating force itself.


I'm currently neutral on this btw. "Limited Infinite Attack Speed" might be okay, but I'll wait to see what others say on it.

 

[TOAAPRESENCE1]

agree with the changes

 

[Hellscream]

There are no bullets that can be intercepted, but "penetrating anything" isn't the same as instantaneously affecting everything at once within his attack vector.

The "penetration" might have a finite speed; it can't be measured obviously since there's no visible projectile, but I think we'd need more to say that he can simultaneously affect everything between his muzzle and a nigh-infintie distance away.


I do agree that this is supportive but I don't see the "including speed" part that you mentioned. The "no room for dodging" could because there is nothing physical to dodge. It's just a penetrating force itself.


I'm currently neutral on this btw. "Limited Infinite Attack Speed" might be okay, but I'll wait to see what others say on it.

None of what you said, would make it undodgeable then.
Which is what it is.

Anyways, i agree.

 

[Deceived3596]

There are no bullets that can be intercepted, but "penetrating anything" isn't the same as instantaneously affecting everything at once within his attack vector.

The "penetration" might have a finite speed; it can't be measured obviously since there's no visible projectile, but I think we'd need more to say that he can simultaneously affect everything between his muzzle and a nigh-infintie distance away.

No, there's no bullet period, that's exactly what Lille himself states. It does within this instance since he isn't attack with something which travels a quantifiable distance, he's attacking with something which “uniformly penetrating anything between the muzzle of the gun and my target”, you ignoring that crucial piece of evidence in your explanation.

It doesn't because the statement doesn't imply such, the "penetration" would only have a finite speed if the conductor of said penetration has a quantifiable speed, which it doesn't. It doesn't, the statement itself implies he does, this interpretation isn't supported and is complete unsupported. You're misinterpretation Lille's words.

I do agree that this is supportive but I don't see the "including speed" part that you mentioned. The "no room for dodging" could because there is nothing physical to dodge. It's just a penetrating force itself.

If there's nothing physical to dodge, then that supports my interpretation Damage, Shunsui can't dodge the attack because it doesn't travel with a quantifiable speed, like a projectile. Because it's just a "penetrating force".

I'm currently neutral on this btw. "Limited Infinite Attack Speed" might be okay, but I'll wait to see what others say on it.

Alright.

 

[Damage3245]

No, there's no bullet period, that's exactly what Lille himself states. It does within this instance since he isn't attack with something which travels a quantifiable distance, he's attacking with something which “uniformly penetrating anything between the muzzle of the gun and my target”, you ignoring that crucial piece of evidence in your explanation.

It doesn't because the statement doesn't imply such, the "penetration" would only have a finite speed if the conductor of said penetration has a quantifiable speed, which it doesn't. It doesn't, the statement itself implies he does, this interpretation isn't supported and is complete unsupported. You're misinterpretation Lille's words.

I'm not ignoring it; I'm just saying the "penetrating anything uniformly" does not have to mean infinite speed. I agreed that there was no bullet, but there's not the same thing as the penetration itself being instantaneous.

If there's nothing physical to dodge, then that supports my interpretation Damage, Shunsui can't dodge the attack because it doesn't travel with a quantifiable speed, like a projectile. Because it's just a "penetrating force".

We have no way of quantifying it ourselves, but it's never said to occur with unquantifiable speed.

None of what you said, would make it undodgeable then.
Which is what it is.

A character claims it is undodgeable. And it may very well be undodgeable to everyone he's faced.

 

[Deceived3596]

I'm not ignoring it; I'm just saying the "penetrating anything uniformly" does not have to mean infinite speed. I agreed that there was no bullet, but there's not the same thing as the penetration itself being instantaneous.

It innately does because of how the ability functions, if you're uniformly penetrating through something without a projectile, but rather your ability just penetrates everything between the muzzle of your gun and your target, then it's inherently traveling a certain distance instantly. It's just an innate characteristic with these types of abilities.

We have no way of quantifying it ourselves, but it's never said to occur with unquantifiable speed.

We do, it's called Lille's explanation of the ability, you're providing interpretations which aren't equal with my interpretations since your interpretations directly contradict Lille's own explanations about his own ability.

 

[Maitreya12]

@azontr With this I could get infinite attack speed for Mubong Park

Agree with “limited infinite speed” at least.

 

[Deceived3596]

I'll explain this in regards to S = D/T.

The speed of The X-Axis's attacks isn't/can't be known, or is infinite, as it travels a quantifiable distance in zero time because the "projectiles" fired out by The X-Axis isn't actually a projectile, it isn't something that inherently has a quantifiable time, rather it's just a "penetrating force" which uniformly penetrates everything between its muzzle and Lille's target. By definition it would fall under Infinite Speed as explained on our speed page, and how S = D/T operates.

 

[Damage3245]

it isn't something that inherently has a quantifiable time, rather it's just a "penetrating force" which uniformly penetrates everything between its muzzle and Lille's target

"Uniformly penetrating everything" =/= "uniformly penetrating everything instantly" is what I'm getting at.

The "uniformly" part to me just means that it is penetrating anything it reaches equally as it isn't like a bullet which would react differently to different materials. So anything it penetrates will have a neat even circle in it.

I'm not saying it's outright wrong to assume it may have infinite speed, but that it isn't actually said to occur instantly by Lille.

 

[Deceived3596]

"Uniformly penetrating everything" =/= "uniformly penetrating everything instantly" is what I'm getting at.

That's my entire point Damage, i'm saying it inherently denotes it's uniformly penetrating everything instantly because the ability itself entails such. It's like saying destroying someone's soul =/= Soul Manipulation. It's oxymoronic.

You aren't grasping this inherent characteristic.

Also the "uniformly" part of the sentence doesn't matter, what matters is the fact it isn't a projectile and Lille's expalantion on how it penetrates things. You're focusing on something which doesn't pertain to this debate we're having.

 

[Damage3245]

That's my entire point Damage, i'm saying it inherently denotes it's uniformly penetrating everything instantly because the ability itself entails such. It's like saying destroying someone's soul =/= Soul Manipulation. It's oxymoronic.

You aren't grasping this inherent characteristic.

Err, I'm just disagreeing with you on this point. My next line goes over an alternative explanation for it. It's not that I haven't grasped what you mena; I understand how you're interpreting it the way that you are.

 

[Deceived3596]

I already addressed the uniformity part, you aren't understanding my argument. You're focusing on one specific part of the sentence which doesn't matter to this debate at all.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

The fact that Lille says “there’s no room for the concept of dodging”, to me at least, is a long winded way of saying that the X-Axis fires instantly.

 

[Damage3245]

Okay... Well, I can see your perspective on it - I just don't think it's as axiomatic as you say it is. Penetrating his targets without a projectile doesn't inherently mean infinite speed to me.

You're arguing that there is no time component for it, so speed is infinite. I'm just saying I don't see the evidence for the "no time component" part.

The fact that Lille says “there’s no room for the concept of dodging”, to me at least, is a long winded way of saying that the X-Axis fires instantly.

I think that strongly suggests that, yeah. Just not conclusively, because Lille Barro has only fought characters within his speed tier anyway. Not like we could say he'd perform equally well against an MFTL+ guy for example.

Amaterasu was undodgeable until it finally came across a guy who could dodge it.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

I think that strongly suggests that, yeah. Just not conclusively, because Lille Barro has only fought characters within his speed tier anyway. Not like we could say he'd perform equally well against an MFTL+ guy for example.

Amaterasu was undodgeable until it finally came across a guy who could dodge i

Yeah but unlike Amaterasu, we don’t have that contradictory precedence. I think that my claim is the most likely to be true, and it seems like you agree? If so then I don’t really have any contentions with something like viewing it as a “likely” over objectively concrete.

 

[azontr]

@azontr With this I could get infinite attack speed for Mubong Park

Agree with “limited infinite speed” at least.

You're a goober.

Anyway, I generally agree with this revision.

 

[Damage3245]

Yeah but unlike Amaterasu, we don’t have that contradictory precedence. I think that my claim is the most likely to be true, and it seems like you agree? If so then I don’t really have any contentions with something like viewing it as a “likely” over objectively concrete.

Would you be fine with "Likely Limited Infinite Attack Speed" then?

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Would you be fine with "Likely Limited Infinite Attack Speed" then?

Yeah that seems agreeable

 

[AnonymousBlank]

Why infinite when it’s immeasurable?

Agree

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Why infinite when it’s immeasurable?

Agree

Your pfp is badass can you dm the art

 

[Damage3245]

Yeah that seems agreeable

I'm fine with that too.

 

[Deceived3596]

It shouldn't even be a likely rating because Damage's interpretations don't even make sense when given context on how the ability operates.

It's literal headcanon which contradicts how the ability actually functions.

If it gets accepted as "likely" then fine, but personally i believe it should be a concrete rating because all the evidence points to the concrete rating.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

It shouldn't even be likely because Damage's interpretations don't even make sense when given context on how the ability operates.

He’s claiming it could be seemingly infinitely faster than Shunsui and thus appearing to be instant rather than truly instant and thus non contradictory, and that’s why he’s not in favor of a full on rating, but agrees that it your and I’d interpretation is most probable thus agreeing to a likely

 

[Deceived3596]

That isn't a valid interpretation. He's just providing an interpretation and expecting it to hold equal or similar value to my interpretation, it doesn't. It's directly contradictory to Lille's own explanation on how his ability functions.

The ability by definition doesn't have a quantifiable timeframe because it doesn't release anything which can be quantified, it's a "penetrating force" which penetrates everything between Lille's muzzle and Lille's target. That's it. This exact context completely contradicts that interpretation provided by Damage.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Personally I have 0 qualms with a full or likely rating, so ima just disagree with your last comment and not say why

 

[Deceived3596]

Bannable offense, you can't disagree with me.

@Damage3245 sentence Arc to 1 million years in the salt mines.

 

[Damage3245]

The ability by definition doesn't have a quantifiable timeframe because it doesn't release anything which can be quantified, it's a "penetrating force" which penetrates everything between Lille's muzzle and Lille's target. That's it. This exact context completely contradicts that interpretation provided by Damage.

I don't agree that is the definition of the ability.

"Penetrating force" does not have to be infinite in speed / instantaneous in effect. You don't need a projectile for it to have a timeframe.

 

[LordGinSama]

I disagree because Arc is gay.

 

[Deceived3596]

This getting circular.

You aren't addressing the entire point, you're cherry picking what i'm saying while not adding the further context i provided.

"Penetrating Force" in itself doesn't mean anything nor does it denote a level of speed, it's just a term i'm using to explain Lille's ability, which within that context would be infinite in speed / instantaneous in effect because it's "firing" something which inherently doesn't have a quantifiable time-frame. I'm not saying you do need a projectile to have a time-frame, you just need something which can have a quantifiable time-frame, The X-Axis doesn't have this because it doesn't release anything which can be quantified.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

I disagree because Arc is gay.

All this talk about dudes penetrating other dudes is what’s gay

 

[Damage3245]

Just because something can't be quantified doesn't make it infinite... That would just make it Unknown because you wouldn't be able to measure/quantify how fast it is.

 

[Deceived3596]

I can't anymore, you deadass just don't understand.

I'm done debating this topic with you because it's getting circular and we both aren't changing each others opinions anytime soon.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

 

[Hellscream]

if it's explained to be able to pierce anything between the muzzle and the target, and that the concept of dodging it doesn't even exist then im pretty sure any finite amount of speed isn't going to cut it.

 

[azontr]

 

[Reio35]

Just because something can't be quantified doesn't make it infinite... That would just make it Unknown because you wouldn't be able to measure/quantify how fast it is.

The fact it cant be dodged literally means it's faster than any speed

 

[Damage3245]

The fact it cant be dodged literally means it's faster than any speed

That's the reason why I think it warrants being put in as a "Likely". Though I wouldn't describe that as a "fact".