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Shin Megami Tensei V Spoilers Discussion

Matthew_Schroeder

Matthew_Schroeder

VS Battles
Retired
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Shin-Megami-Tensei-V-Nintendo.jpg

Yesterday I just finished watching through a playthrough of Shin Megami Tensei V, from beginning to end, including all endings and DLC. I've been showing screenshots and clips from the game to friends on Discord but I figured that a thread would be a better way to discuss the game's story with more people.

Obviously, from the titles, this thread will be filled with spoilers, but it would still be nice if people tagged them on their posts.
 
Bought the full game and all DLC and am enjoying, my main question and probably the most important factor in scaling is what's the opinion on how strong the Creator is, and is the Great Will refered to the Axiom or is it pulling a Nocturne and it's just YHVH.

Also are we given any extra details on what exactly the Da'at is, because unless I missed some side quest or NPC conversation that explains it, all the information we get about it at the start is pretty much all we are told.
 
Everything12 said:
Bought the full game and all DLC and am enjoying, my main question and probably the most important factor in scaling is what's the opinion on how strong the Creator is, and is the Great Will refered to the Axiom or is it pulling a Nocturne and it's just YHVH.
Click to expand...
It's a single YHVH-head. The whole game is confined to a single universe.

The Great Will is mentioned twice in the whole game including DLC and its used to refer to the will behind the cycle of creation and destruction both times. So the Great Will is still YHVH and not the Axiom.

Daat is what remains of the physical world after it was merged into the Demon World. Tokyo is all that remains thanks to YHVH's intervention.
 
Am I wrong in thinking that the end game scaling should be
Nahobino (With God's/Lucifer's Knowldge)? > Nahobino > True Lucifer (With God's Knowledge) > True Lucifer? >= The Creator = YHVH Head > Kuzuryu > Satan > Lucifer
 
I think you're exaggerating a bit it's more just:

Nahobino (God's Throne and Lucifer's Knowledge) > Nahobino (God's Throne) = Lucifer (God's Knowledge) > YHVH
 
but Lucifer managed to defeat The Creator before taking his Knowledge?
 
Matthew_Schroeder said:
It's a single YHVH-head. The whole game is confined to a single universe.

The Great Will is mentioned twice in the whole game including DLC and its used to refer to the will behind the cycle of creation and destruction both times. So the Great Will is still YHVH and not the Axiom.

Daat is what remains of the physical world after it was merged into the Demon World. Tokyo is all that remains thanks to YHVH's intervention.
Click to expand...
I believe the do believe they mention the Nahobino becoming the new will of the universe after ascending.
 
Tyranno223 said:
I believe the do believe they mention the Nahobino becoming the new will of the universe after ascending.
Click to expand...
They don't.

The Goddess of Creation simply states that the cyclical act of creation is determined by the Will of the Universe, and to go against it is to go against the Will of the Universe. And Sophia tells you to abide by the Great Will and create your new universe. You are not becoming the next Great Will you are simply fulfilling your role in the Great Will.

If this game's YHVH was the Great Will then literally nothing would ever make sense because this game contradicts basically everything from past games.
 
Safe to say that YHVH's "permanent" death in Apocalypse will be ignored in future SMT games.
 
Any thoughts on the dlc? Not the biggest fan of most of them, nor the fiends being locked behind a paywall, but I did like the superboss... well I haven't fought him yet, but I enjoy watchinf people die to him.
 
Cleopatra, Mephisto and Artemis were underwhelming specially compared to the first two's outing in Apocalypse.
 
According to the lore, Lucifer ascended to a Higher plane of existence than the throne. new higher levels of existence to add to the list. Kinda crazy how far they went with it
 
Ovrhide said:
Outside of DLC weirdness, potentially the strongest. I’m not sure about the other games, but defeating a Lucifer that is a layer of infinity stronger than YHVH is pretty wild.
Click to expand...
inside of DLC weirdness, would this mean the Demifiend would get bumped up a few places? From what I've seen of dlc gameplay, he still one shots with Gaea Rage. Would that be gameplay mechanics or?
 
AnAverageUsername said:
inside of DLC weirdness, would this mean the Demifiend would get bumped up a few places? From what I've seen of dlc gameplay, he still one shots with Gaea Rage. Would that be gameplay mechanics or?
Click to expand...
Normally, I'd say gameplay mechanics (Shiva's a higher level than Lucifer but isn't stated to be any stronger than him in the narrative), but given just how busted Demi-fiend is in comparison to everything else by design (even Shiva), as well as Trumpeter's statement regarding him (which, giving it thought, honestly probably isn't just hype; Trumpeter would have to have participated in the war against the Great Will alongside Demi-fiend and Lucifer, so he'd know exactly what he's comparing Demi-fiend to in terms of power, meaning the latter should at least be more powerful than whatever version of YHVH he's faced). How he compares to an ascendant Lucifer, or even Nahobino after he's assumed the throne, is much more debatable.

Mind you, these are just my thoughts.
 
AnAverageUsername said:
inside of DLC weirdness, would this mean the Demifiend would get bumped up a few places? From what I've seen of dlc gameplay, he still one shots with Gaea Rage. Would that be gameplay mechanics or?
Click to expand...
Gameplay mechanics. What I meant was Diamond realm messiah. Unless some crazy shit is revealed like
Transcendent Lucifer’s plane of existence being close to the axiom
And I very much doubt that and nothing points to that as far as I’m aware.

not sure how many layers of existence the axiom is above YHVH.
 
Raihohoho said:
Normally, I'd say gameplay mechanics (Shiva's a higher level than Lucifer but isn't stated to be any stronger than him in the narrative), but given just how busted Demi-fiend is in comparison to everything else by design (even Shiva), as well as Trumpeter's statement regarding him (which, giving it thought, honestly probably isn't just hype; Trumpeter would have to have participated in the war against the Great Will alongside Demi-fiend and Lucifer, so he'd know exactly what he's comparing Demi-fiend to in terms of power, meaning the latter should at least be more powerful than whatever version of YHVH he's faced). How he compares to an ascendant Lucifer, or even Nahobino after he's assumed the throne, is much more debatable.

Mind you, these are just my thoughts.
Click to expand...
Here are screenshots of Trumpeter's dialogue in both languages, just to be sure there's no discrepancy, and so I can go on record to say I'm not bullshitting.

Not that I'm sure it matters here, but this is the scaling chain as I see it (with question marks added to the parts I'm less certain about): The Axiom >>>>> Stephen > Nanashi (Massacre) > True YHVH >(?) Nahobino (After taking the Throne) > Nahobino (Before taking the Throne) > Matter Lucifer >=?* Demi-fiend >?** YHVH Head =(?)*** Default Lucifer

*: Nahobino's fight with Demi-fiend should take place before his ascent to the throne, so I'm sticking more so with Matter Lucifer being either stronger or equal here; feel free to disregard this as it is purely speculative.

**: Based on Trumpeter's statement regarding him being beyond comparison to other beings which he is aware of, which includes the Great Will (or, rather, one of YHVH's heads) and Lucifer. Again, safely disregarded given it's more personal speculation than anything.

***: This Lucifer managed to defeat the YHVH of his universe, though we're not sure what the specific means were.

Not really sure where Shiva stands in the chain. Probably still below default Lucifer in the narrative.
 
The YHVH in SMT V is a single head and not the full entity. The Great Will is mentioned as something that exists multiple time and
they even state that before YHVH ruled the universe, Baal did, and before Baal it was Ra. So the Nahobino is stronger than Aleph but nowhere near as powerful as Nanashi and Flynn
 
Scaling the Demi-Fiend is hard because you get an obvious Power Boost before
fighting Lucifer as you finally reach the Throne and become God. And the Demi-Fiend fight has to happen before you make for the Throne because of Sophia's dialogue.
 
Matthew_Schroeder said:
Scaling the Demi-Fiend is hard because you get an obvious Power Boost before
fighting Lucifer as you finally reach the Throne and become God. And the Demi-Fiend fight has to happen before you make for the Throne because of Sophia's dialogue.
Click to expand...
Yeah, I figured that would be a factor at the very least, thus the uncertainty as far as where he stands compared to Matter Lucifer (It also doesn't help that we're not sure if Demi-fiend's going all-out, since he does a number of things to disadvantage himself, but that's besides the point). What I'm getting at, rather, was that the Demi-fiend we see here is likely stronger than the YHVH head he and Lucifer fought on the True Demon path back in Nocturne (given the statement by Trumpeter, who would have been involved in said fight. His being in SMTV (and not in Solar Data form) in and of itself corroborates this, as I doubt he'd be around if he didn't kill the YHVH of his reality. Again, though, this is just speculation.
 
Matthew_Schroeder said:
The YHVH in SMT V is a single head and not the full entity. The Great Will is mentioned as something that exists multiple time and
they even state that before YHVH ruled the universe, Baal did, and before Baal it was Ra. So the Nahobino is stronger than Aleph but nowhere near as powerful as Nanashi and Flynn
Click to expand...
Doubtful.

The throne and OTG titles are direct references to the scope of YHWH that hid himself from observation and debased all other gods making him the OTG and rewriting history. Same one who bound mortals to flesh. The angels also flop to the newest throne holder which they didn't do when manifestation heads died in the past.

This also follows the TDE of Nocturne, and they were specifically said to have been going to fight the Great Will. Which is true YHWH. YHWH made himself the will of the universe when he became OTG which is why his heads regenerated to kill Aleph. That clearly didn't happen here and Lucifer in fact claimed to have transcended the throne entirely.

The Baal reference is just discussing the timeline prior to yhwh's power move for OTG status. His use of the covenant for humans and debasing gods is what allowed him to stay in power. But prior to Baal was in charge, which attested to in PErsona 2 when he claims he once had power that rivaled YHWH.

Given all of that it's highly unlikely Luci is bragging about killing a manifestation head, and they also had him legit take his role as a transcendent being.
 
The Great Will still exists as per Tao and Sophia's statements, and the game heavily contradicts everything about prior games established lore. The whole game is a single universe with the only references to alternate realities being the statements of the Fiends confirming that they are from a universe.

And the cycle still exists, as determined by the will of the universe.

Also the Throne of God is obviously meant to be Kether, not something entirely higher like YHVH from Apocalypse is shown to be.
 
Last edited:
Dr._whiteee said:
YHWH made himself the will of the universe when he became OTG which is why his heads regenerated to kill Aleph
Click to expand...
Also this literally never happened. All YHVH says in SMT II is that he will eventually come back, but all three endings have Aleph be alive in the world rid of YHVH. You are likely basing this on the Hijiri Theory which has long been debunked.
 
The game is so ******* good and addicting. I’ve put over 50 hours so far, and have yet to feel burned out. I’ve done all endings, but only have 2 endings on a single file.

haven’t noticed a difference yet, but if there is, I need to know if cycles (new game +) bring new stuff to the table.
 
On a sidenote, the game does state that Shiva had gathered a large amount of magatsuchi in preparation for his destruction of the universe, which is why he's likely so powerful at the time.

(Also, Brahma finally gets a damn mention, still doesn't appear but oh well)
 
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