Shin Megami Tensei Discussion Thread: III - Maniax Edition

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

I think it should stay, because bottom line we just know he fought him. So a possibly rating could be added.

 

[Ionliosite]

Luci is weird, since SMT II is the only main game that shows him as Satan's equal, everywhere else he's shown to be pretty below him.

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

Luci is weird, since SMT II is the only main game that shows him as Satan's equal, everywhere else he's shown to be pretty below him.

Isn't 2 the one where Lucy says he would probably die against Satan?

 

[Ionliosite]

I don't remember that, but I do remember that in II, Lucifer and Satan are shown as equals in the same way Michael and King Asura were in I, being the ultimate representation of their aligments.

 

[Yvel_Atsly]

Well in Megami Tensei II YHVH recieved an Observation boost by Nakajima agreeing with him in the Law ending. Like YHVH got his "Omnipotent" power back which was enough to stomp the entire Peace cast when Nanashi agreed to be his servant and stuff after denying him. Flynn does something similar where when The White asked him to return the multiverse to nothingness and their power was weakened like the opposite of empowerment when Flynn rejected them. Plus YHVH used a specifically strong move to stomp Luci whereas if you ignore his offer Luci assist you like he can later does in SMT II when fighting YHVH.

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

I don't remember that, but I do remember that in II, Lucifer and Satan are shown as equals in the same way Michael and King Asura were in I, being the ultimate representation of their aligments.

It's in the blog Ultima made IIRC

 

[Yvel_Atsly]

Ultima put Lucifer way beneath Satan. That's why he's treated as equal and weaker in the first place

 

[Ionliosite]

Well, Luci isn't Satan's equal, since I checked and Luci himself is unsure if he can defeat Satan, but I doubt he's as much weaker than him than we currently think.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

I believed he was weaker via the justifications.

 

[Yvel_Atsly]

He's wary of wether he can defeat Satan but he's still capable and willing of going toe to toe with him, I can agree of Satan being a bit stronger but not stomp stronger

 

[Ionliosite]

I agree, Luci is clearly not meant to be that much weaker than Satan, since we have evidance that they are pretty comparable, but Satan is still somewhat stronger.

 

[Yvel_Atsly]

Would we need to make a CRT to get that rating>

 

[Ionliosite]

Yes, a CRT would be needed, so both (and those scaling to them) are just Low 1-C (or 2-A).

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Sounds good.

 

[Yvel_Atsly]

I'm working on getting the profile added but tell me when you want a CRT since i need to get scans first

 

[MYHERO]

Nope, not at all. Probably ask MYHERO.

I already talked to Yvel about it on discord couple of times. We came to an agreement that it's of poor quality rn, and have put up some new justifications if I am remembering right. Though he also thinks the quote sucks too so :T

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Lol, the quote part is funny.

 

[MYHERO]

Reading this over, I am inclined to agree that Lucifer shouldn't be a "possibly."

I've already talked about it with Yvel again way back, and I brought up how it made no sense for Satan to be a whole dimension above when Lucifer had still tried to engage battle with him.

But before that I think it's important to tackle the elephant of the room. Should the 5Ds stay as 5Ds? Or should they be lowered to 4D?

 

[Ionliosite]

Basically, the only reason Luci, Satan and YHVH are considered 5-D to begin with is because of scaling to Canopus. Should that change?

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

I believe they should be 5D.

 

[Ionliosite]

I personally see no reason for them to be 5-D, why do we even scale them to Canopus on the first place?

 

[MYHERO]

It's been like a month and a half where I haven't touched SMT powerscaling so my memory is a bit shaky, but I recall them scaling to Canopussy because they just couldn't swallow the idea of some dude in a spin off game being stronger then the main threat in the entire series.

But I don't agree with that kind of scaling, because with that same logic we can say that Lucifer is 1-C because we shouldn't be able to swallow the idea that a pathetic loser like Navarre is stronger then the literal embodiment as chaos.

I'm kinda shocked they didn't even give a "possibly" rating despite it sounding so dubious, but I think Dragonmaster kinda egged on a solid rating so Digimon can stay as number 1 in 2-A. Which might be why they put it at a solid 5D.

 

[Yvel_Atsly]

Cause YHVH is YHVH and shouldn't be weaker than some random villian in their eyes Oh snap i didn't see Hero's comment

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

So we have the supposed strongest in one spin-off, and another in mainline games.

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

I personally see no reason for them to be 5-D, why do we even scale them to Canopus on the first place?

IIRC it was because of the idea of a random Mook being stronger than the big bad of the series is not logical and so everyone got the tier

 

[Yvel_Atsly]

I mean there is Brahman whose applicable for 1-C anyways too

 

[MYHERO]

@Yvel You and I both know that Brah actually has some good shit going on in the lore that can boost him to that level unlike Lucifer.

 

[Yvel_Atsly]

Time to fix this DDS2 Scaling

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

I personally understand why they say some spin off villain shouldn't be the strongest, but it isn't logical though.

 

[Yvel_Atsly]

We also need type 9 immortality negation for humans since the DeSu 2 characters killed Polaris

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Shouldn't Demons/Angels have Type 5 Immortality? They aren't alive or dead, they're info.

 

[Yvel_Atsly]

I mean they're not beings made out of matter like us but they can definitely die. Like how Lucifer mentions Aleph killed the great YHVH himself and say she definitely did. Or like how Demi-Fiend game ended Forneus and he had a grave in the Amala Labyrinth

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

So no Type 5? I guess that makes sense, since they can't truly kill each other.

 

[Yvel_Atsly]

No type 5

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

And are we confirming Canopus>YHVH?

 

[MYHERO]

Unless we prove YHVH on his own is 5D, yeah.

 

[Yvel_Atsly]

It sounds so since we can say the same for alot of demons and characters. Like Dadga being 1-C We should also get rid of his first 2-A rating

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Isn't his realm supposed to be 5-D?

 

[Yvel_Atsly]

You mean his universe in Apocalypse?

 

[MYHERO]

Also I think even if we do downgrade YHVH, the SMT 1-Cs still might have a chance of being high 1-C. That's because I think YHVH himself is possibly beyond the 5 layer present in YHVH's universe.

For example compared to the 5th realm, and YHVH himself, the backgrounds are completely different, which would mean that the settings are completely different, which is backed up by the fact that there is a staircase that leads to black after reaching its final steps.


The Fifth Layer


YHVH himself

This is also supported by the fact that before engaging in battle with him, YHVH states that he is beyond comprehension to the player, which would allude to the idea that he should be a dimension above them, as it wouldn't make sense for him to say that if he were to be in the same dimensional plane.