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Shin Megami Tensei Discussion Thread II

It's a fan-made term, but it refers to secret bosses that usually can only be fought in New Game+, or on hardest difficulty, and are superior to Final Boss.
 
Also, I now disagree with Tivanenk that the Apocalypse party isn't High 2-A.

Jonathan + Walter = Satan, who was capable of judging YHVH and actually was important in the Genocide Route fight.
 
>> Indeed, and that second point kinda proves my point of U. Alice being 2-A with the "Lucifer is fought after Kagutsuchi. Michael compares to Lucifer. Michael is 2-A." The exact same sort of scalling can apply to Ultimate Boss Alice. Not to mention that she makes a direct parallel with Lucifer as the Ultimate Boss in the first Desu, but that would be too much of a stretch to compare the tiers based on that, so I digress on the last one.

>> And Ultimate Boss Alice does not cause any problems to the scalling. That's because her tier literally does not matter to anyone else. No one, not even in Desu2, will get any sort of scalling, be it upgrade or downgrade, from fighting Ultimate Boss Alice.

>> Sounds like that, but what I meant is that while they are the same being from the original game, the powers Alice displayed in this one are bigger than her mainline incarnation. She doesn't have any quote, but wouldn't Belial and Nebiros following her around be proof enough that she is the real deal?

>> No one in the mid-game party needs to be scalled to Beelzebub and Alice. But they're respectively optional and ultimate boss (kinda like how Endgame Adell in Nipponverse is Universe lvl due to feats outside of the main route while main history Adell is only planet lvl). They are supposed to have been fought by the endgame or at least near endgame party. I doubt anyone there was thinking "Hey, they can beat the heck out of Beelzebub while still being weaker than the Septentriones and Polaris." or else they would be fought in the main story. I'm fairly sure most optional stuff is usually counted as after the main history, or trust me that the scalling in many series out there would fly out the window.

>> Polaris was fighting for its life and in the second Daichi Route (bad ending) Polaris calls The Shining One a Godkiller while using all his power in the battle. Now here's the thing: If Polaris was fighting for his life, why would he not use the AR in battle when it was right there beside him? This wasn't just a test like in many of the other routes, they wanted to kill him and he knew it. Also later the void does not disappear at all and people are left in the planet with... Well, whatever's left of it. So I'm fairly sure the Akashic Record went to hell with Polaris (either that or no one there knew how to operate that thing anymore, LOL).

>> On the Tsuutenkaku barriers, Yamato explains it at some point in the game. I'll see if I can find it later, tho, because I don't remember the exact day in game. Guess it was the third day, but I'll confirm on this one later.

>> Also, ok. Didn't really remember that last one with the Universe and void stuff. Anyways, I digress. If after this you still think Ultimate Boss Alice should not be 2-A, I won't really bother trying to argue on that anymore or else we'll be here for all of eternity.
 
Also, I disagree with Matt on the cast being High 2-A. At most, this extends to Nozomi, Isabeau, and Hallelujah. Navarre and Asahi are support types and shouldn't get this rating, and Gaston and Toki are both durability penetrators, and thus also ignore this rating.
 
Gungnir is a special weapon whose sole purpose is to avoid defenses and has an attribute called True Pierce.
 
Oh, so you want to apply game mechanics when it comes to buffing them, but you don't want to apply game mechanics when it comes to nerfing them?
 
Not applying a single game mechanic to the main cast of Apocalypse.

Walter + Jonahthan = Satan who you agree is High 2-A.

The rest supported Nanashi and Flynn against YHVH.

They could either hurt YHVH or heal Nanashi from YHVH's attacks or buff him so he'd be more effective against him.

The Walter + Jonathan thing destroys any chance of them not being High 2-A.
 
@MagiSinbad Here are the videos which explain the towers, how they channel the power of the Dragon Stream and how the towers are the only reason the Void couldn't just consume them . I'm fairly sure there was more useful information on Mizar's day about the barrier, how it works, how as long as there's one tower, it's still up, a certain huge magic circle underground and some other stuff, but I'd have to go through an entire walkthrough to find all that stuff again and I'm not bothered enough with the tiering of the Septentriones to go that far just to get a possible upgrade for them.
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
Not applying a single game mechanic to the main cast of Apocalypse.
Walter + Jonahthan = Satan who you agree is High 2-A.

The rest supported Nanashi and Flynn against YHVH.

They could either hurt YHVH or heal Nanashi from YHVH's attacks or buff him so he'd be more effective against him.

The Walter + Jonathan thing destroys any chance of them not being High 2-A.
Click to expand...
Yeah, Navarre and Asahi simply supported, while Toki and Gaston have pierce on their attacks, which is how they are able to hurt YHVH. Listen to yourself once more.
 
Pierce effects won't work on Higher Dimensional beings, and neither will lower-dimensional healing on wounds caused by a higher-dimensional being.
 
Trying to apply dimensional logic to an SMT game doesn't work. Especially considering that these 3-D humans are taking down higher dimensional gods. If you want to use dimensional logic, you'll have to reduce every human in the series to High 3-A for being 3-D.
 
Also, the hell Pierce won't work on higher dimensional beings? How do you know whether a game mechanic can work on someone like that? Or whether you can't heal wounds from higher dimensional beings?
 
You may ask DarkLK if he thinks pierce would work on a higher dimension. Or make a more general thread about it.

If you can directly affect Higher-Dimensional beings, you should be on same dimensional tiering

doesn't matter if the difference in power between you and them is like a human and an ant.
 
Humans regularly affected demons and gods from lower dimensions in SMT (see vs. Sanat). This isn't anything new. The precedence was set already. You need to prove that they can't affect them in this case.
 
I highly doubt a high tier demon who's supposed to be near equal to one of YHVH's avatars merely thought of them as mere humans, especially when he was anticipating an epic battle at the same time.
 
A lot are, but Sanat purposefully spread the seeds of humanity to see if one can rise to challenge him. I highly doubt that is arrogance.
 
What I'm saying is: Sanat is a higher dimensional being and he called Flynn & co. as lower dimensional, yet Flynn was able to beat him. In essence, lower dimensional attacks and healing work on higher dimensional opponents in SMT. Therefore, it isn't surprising to see someone bypass YHVH's defense with Pierce through a lower dimension, nor that you could heal someone with healing from lower dimensions.
 
Tivanenk said:
What I'm saying is: Sanat is a higher dimensional being and he called Flynn & co. as lower dimensional, yet Flynn was able to beat him. In essence, lower dimensional attacks and healing work on higher dimensional opponents in SMT. Therefore, it isn't surprising to see someone bypass YHVH's defense with Pierce through a lower dimension, nor that you could heal someone with healing from lower dimensions.
Click to expand...
That's not how it works. Period.
 
I thought the humans in SMT were higher dimensional(4-Dimensional) as well? I don't think Sanat should be High 2-A, AND yes, he was probably being arrogant. That's what a lot of demons do in SMT. Just look at Demiurge, who's LAW for crying out loud. Merkabah comments on your arrogance when you fight her on the Chaos route, and Demiurge("The Voice of Arrogant Evil") just OOZES with it. "Planting Seeds" could have also been a metaphor, and if we make Sanat High 2-A, we would have to make the Ancient of Days and Masakado High 2-A as well, which means we have to make just about EVERYBODY High 2-A. I'm sorry, but I don't want it looking like DeSu 2, we already have YHVH possibly returning to his chariot of 1-C!
 
Well, I'm not going to argue with you guys anymore. I think you're severely overhyping the cast, but I'm not going to continue. I'm out of here. Tier the characters on your own.
 
that rage quit :v


edit: in my opinion, yhvh should be low 1B, and you can explain and detail the pages? some (if not) a lot of the should have Conceptual manipulation, destruction, creation, etc :v
 
Low 1-B seems too high to me as well, since YHVH's universe involves branes, which basically only occur in string and M-theory, it seems highly unlikely he'd be beyond a full complex M-theory multiverse.

You forgot about the dragon stream Magi? The dragon stream barrier was holding back/slowing down the 4D erasure of the cities. But the reason the Septentriones shouldn't be in the realm of 4D power is because once they're in the barrier they struggled with taking on JPs to remove the towers. Although now that I think about it Mizar fought the physical manifestation of the dragon stream, so maybe they'd be high 3A day 6 and on?

Also, I disagree with the idea of Polaris not being higher-dimensional, the cast could fight him because they had their bodies deconstructed into information and then reconstructed onto a higher plane of existence by the dragon stream enhanced terminal. After the battle they were returned to the regular world, so they should have been returned to their 3D forms. So that wouldn't put Polaris below the Triangulums.

Also, on a slightly related note, shouldn't Belial somewhat scale to Beelzebub and Belberith anyway? He and Beldr were the only remaining demons who were competing with Belberith in the battle for the bel-throne in DeSu, and Beldr could only do so thanks to his immortality. Belial also gave Abel a large amount of the power needed to fight Beelzebub or Jezebel, and he supposedly lasted longer than Belphegor, Bael, and (somehow) Baal in the war, so it wouldn't make sense for him to be infinitely weaker than them.
 
Quick question: Where do you guys think Samael is in SMT's Power Hierarchy? I think if we got a complete list of where all of the angels and demons stand specifically(that we know), it would help fill in the missing pieces like Belial.
 
Good to know, Thanks! :) Samael's one of my personal favorites in the series, and in SMT IV-A he has an AMAZING movepool!
 
Samael gets access to Salvation, Shivering Taboo, Great Logos, Doping, AND Repel Dark.

Out of all of the demons in the game though, Satan, Matador, and Metatron look like they're the best. Two of those three have multi-hit moves, which are always broken.
 
I'd say the best are Satan, Matador, and Krishna when it comes to moveset. Andalusia makes Matador broken, Satan has his Akasha Arts and Almighty move (and Almighty Pleroma), and Krishna has amazing support moves with his Ragas.
 
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