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Shin Megami Tensei Discussion Thread II

If so, unless I missed something, shouldn't Demi-Fiend and Abel move above Lucifer?

And Demiurge is the Ultimate Boss in Strange Journey. Should that count as a sign of Him being stronger than Mem Aleph or not?
 
Wow, that tier list is pretty damn accurate. I made one a while ago, and yours is far more in depth. One thing that does confuse me is, on Beelzebub's profile, it says he is stronger than Kagutsuchi(Michael might be too.), but on the tier list, he's ranked lower. One last nitpick is with Satan. Would his solar data version be up to par with his original counterpart, because this is something that gets brought up all the time with DDS2.(Oh, and Megami Tensei II protagonist beat YHVH and Satan too, not just Aleph and Nanashi.)
 
I'd have Four Horsemen, Mastema and Trumpeter as above the Heralds but beneath Michael

Likely 2-A.
 
Would you people say that Minato with the Universe Arcana was resisting hits from Nyx' actual self, rather than it's Avatar?

I have a lot of doubts and ideas about Nyx and Universe Arcana, and I'd like to discuss them.
 
Shouldn't DeSu2 Alice be at least 2B possibly 2A? Don't we not scale DeSu 2 characters to the regular SMT high tiers, because if we did the stronger Septentriones, that still struggled to destroy cities, would scale to Shiva.
 
Why? They take place in a different multiverse with a different cosmology, and scaling them to regular SMT Shiva and Beelzebub is inconsistent.
 
The thing is, Alice doesn't make anything inconsistent, unlike the Septentrions. Her appearance in DS2 only happens at the end game and she is stronger than Polaris and Beelzebub while messing around. She didn't want to bust the city and failed to do so like the Septentriones, she just wanted to kill the party. And guess what? Not only she comes AFTER Polaris and Beelzebub are beat, but is also the ultimate enemy (bar Canopus), being also lvl 99 and can one-shot anything that comes her way, unless said thing has resistance to Almighty and is comparable to her.

The thing is, if you fight the Septentrions with an Endgame party, you will DESTROY them.

If you fight Alice with anything but the endgame party, she is the one who will destroy you.
 
Yes, but this is likely a different Beelzebub, as the DeSu2 multiverse possesses a different cosmology to the regular SMT multiverse. If we assume that Beelzebub in the DeSu2 multiverse are the same as the one in the regular SMT multiverse, then why would Shiva and Alice be any different? Also, this would mean that Daichi, Io, and co are already 2A at the beginning of the Triangulum arc, despite how easily they fall to the Triangulum, who get erased by a mere universal reset.
 
Not really, Beelzebub even says at the beginning of the battle:

"I've been waiting for you. I've heard a lot about your unusual strength. So I'd like to use my army to see how powerful you really are. I came all this way for you." And why wouldn't Beelzebub be similar to his counterpart? He looks the same, his power is similar, he still has his army, I don't see how that would be a problem. Or are you suggesting that DS2 Beelzebub and Alice are city lvl or something? That's just silly.

And Alice is different than her main continuity incarnation. The difference is that rather than weaker, she's actually stronger in the Desu2 continuity.

Aaaand you just skipped right trough the part where I said that Alice's tiering is not a problem because it doesn't present any sort of inconsistency with the series. Alice can only be fought after you finish the game or in the endgame. She's stronger than Polaris and Beelzebub by a landslide. And (this is VERY important) unlike Shiva OR the Septentriones, both Alice and Beelzebub ARE NOT involved in the main history.

Alice is presented in game as much harder to deal with than both of the aforementioned bosses. And pay attention here: Alice, as she is presented in the Desu2 continuity, is capable of fighting and holding her ground very well against the endgame party.

If you say "But the Triangulum beat them later on..." you will be suggesting that not only Alice and Beelzebub, but also that Polaris is City Level too, so please stop. Could be very well the Triangulum got some help from the big guy (Canopus) or simply that it was an outlier for the Triangulum.
 
And in the same way, because NEITHER of them are involved in the game's main history, they don't pose a problem to its consistency at all, because they didn't necessarily fight them. Now if you do fight Alice, it will be the endgame party, which can beat 2-A Beelzebub, because she is the ultimate boss (still weaker than Canopus however, because she can be beat even without the Prime Factors and stuff). Get it?
 
Just noticed...you guy keep Alice at 2-A and scail her to Polaris ? No >__>

@FateAlbane

No >__> most of your argument about Alice's tier is based on her in-game stats. Which are not really good as the source to scailing.

And Alice is different than her main continuity incarnation. The difference is that rather than weaker, she's actually stronger in the Desu2 continuity.

There is nothing to support this other than her in-game stats. If this Alice is DeSu2 Only then she is nothing more than some mere datas that recorded inside Akashic Record. Which, arcoding to our system, doesnt even reach 2-A rating. Then why she is even stronger than the administrator who have total control over the system of Akashic Record ????

Hell, the demons in DeSu2 were even calling Anguished One their master. Given the fact that they were created by him. It does make sense, since Anguished One himself is the creator of Nicae System (Of course, i dont think Beel is one of them. Since he claim that he had travel a long way to reach Hibiki's world)

Alice can only be fought after you finish the game or in the endgame.

Yeah... New Game + as the optional boss

Alice, as she is presented in the Desu2 continuity, is capable of fighting and holding her ground very well against the endgame party.

Doesnt support her "At least 2-A" tier either . The endgame party's best feat was just resisting the force of Akashic Record. Which isnt even 2-A, It's 2-B. You should keep in mind that the one that DeSu2 party fought was Polaris, not the Akashic Record itself, even after the party defeat Polaris, there isnt anything happened to the Akashic Record, it was still okay, good like new

If you say "But the Triangulum beat them later on..." you will be suggesting that not only Alice and Beelzebub, but also that Polaris is City Level too

Why not ? Arcturus was the biggest evidence on how weak is an administrator is without the Akashic Record. Most of their cosmic power is rely on the Akashic Record, without it, you got Arcturus-level Administratror

In-short : if this Alice is DeSu2 ONLY, then that mean her tier wont even get pass Anguished One, whom is 7-B

EDIT :

This remind me : we should have some KEY for Polaris : Without Akashic Record and With Akashic Record
 
Hmmm... dont know much about Mot, but i think Fenrir would definitely 2-A

"A gigantic beast of Norse mythology that swallows all. He takes the form of a wolf so big that when he opens his mouth, his jaws touch the earth and the sky. Blazing flames erupt from his eyes and nose. He was counted along with the world serpent Jormungandr and the goddess Hel as one of the three children of Loki, the god who would later trigger Ragnarok, and the giantess Angraboda.

At birth, Fenrir had no particular powers at all and was not placed under the watch of the Aesir. But as time passed, his power grew. At last, the gods attempted to bind Fenrir with a chain called Loedingr, but Fenrir easily bit through the chain. The gods then tried again with Dromi, twice as strong as Loedingr, but again Fenrir easily broke it. Finally, the gods asked the dwarves to forge a third chain, Gleipnir ("entangling one"), and with this they succeeded in binding Fenrir.

At Ragnarok, Fenrir will break free from Gleipnir and swallow Odin, the chief of the gods."

—Shin Megami Tensei IMAGINE Compendium
 
Mot should be a weaker than Baal, but still in the same ballpark(2-A). My guess is he's a little weaker than Kagutsuchi(The baseline for real power in SMT.)
 
Also, have we ever came to a conclusion about YHVH? Are ∞ Head and Demonized YHVH High 2-A, 1-C, .........?
 
Now that you say it..... Yeah, he does kill Baal! Anat brings him back though every time he dies though. I don't know if compendium descriptions are the most accurate for judging power though, because Principality has power over time, and he's one of the weaker Divine-Race angels.
 
Well, while the compedium is the source of the deities history so why not ? :3

the gods in SMT are usually act like the description of their compedium profiles
 
Please tell me you're kidding. I just had a major kek on city lvl Polaris.

>> Not scalling from being stronger than Beelzebub and Polaris.

>> Sure, in that case, let's stop scalling everyone from Kagutsuchi in the main series, too. I mean, not all of them are outright said to be stronger than Kagutsuchi yet they are all considered as such due to other factors and scalling. Whyyyy not make them all be way under Kagutsuchi in power? Or is there some in game statement for everyone who gets their scalling of being stronger than him or something? There's little to nothing in game aside from "they are fought after Kagutsuchi so they are logically stronger than him" to suggest that all those demons should be above/equal him, yet here we are with the scalling.

>> Who said Alice is data? Much like Beelzebub, she may just as well have come from somewhere in the Amala Network (notice that Beelzebub says "I came all this way for you." suggesting he's not even part of this system to begin with.

>> No, the endgame's best feat before Alice in the original game/Septentrion endgame is beating Beelzebub, not the Akashic Record.

>> "You should keep in mind that the one that DeSu2 party fought was Polaris, not the Akashic Record itself, even after the party defeat Polaris, there isnt anything happened to the Akashic Record, it was still okay, good like new"

...Uuuh, no? Did you play the route where you kill Polaris and destroy the Akashic Record? Because I clearly remember Polaris and the Akashic Record going to hell in that route. So yeah, the endgame party CAN destroy the AR.

And again, sorry, but major kek on City Level Polaris. I presume he also Reality Warps in that scale with City Level AP.
 
And I don't know if it's just me, but people seem to simply forget that the Tsuutenkaku barriers were holding back not only the Septentriones, but also the primordial void which was consuming the entire Universe (or was it the Multiverse? Don't remember this one) and that's the main reason they were having trouble with the city.

The Septentriones wanted to bust the Tsuutenkaku towers in order to dispel the barrier so the void could consume the city.
 
question, Belial is not a Multiversal Tier? because is a storng demon by Lore, Text, Licifer High Tier demons and DeSu1???


P
 
English PLS. JK! I think we're deciding if he is MU+ tier or not. Personally, I would put him at 2-B, but the others might make him 2-A.
 
Samzaya(or Shemzaya, I'm not sure) looked pretty powerful. The second time you fight him he's summoned alongside the likes of Baal and Beelzebub.
 
whyyyy not make them all be way under Kagutsuchi in power? Or is there some in game statement for everyone who gets their scalling of being stronger than him or something?

First :

Actually, we based on 2 feat to scails Kagutsuchi to the other demons.

+The first feat is in Strange Journey . It has been confirmed that Metatron is stronger than Kagutsuchi when he fused with Demiurge and regain YHVH's former glory (Or maybe just the golden head of YHVH ? ), Kagutsuchi was just an unneccessary avatar

+The second feat is... well, like you said, Lucifer is fought after Kagutsuchi and proved that he is stronger than Kagutsuchi. In the acient myth, Lucifer fought Michael and the rest of heaven and (somehow) lost. This makes Michael stand at 2-A for being comparable (i still find it hard to believe) to Lucifer. Quote from Ant : it would be impossible for him to fight a being that infinite times stronger than him, I think we really should give him tier 2-A. So even if the feat above doesnt sound right to you, we still have this feat

For the scailing through stat issues. Like i said before, it would causes ALOT of trouble :

Take Asura and Beelzebub for an example.

SMT 4 : Asura level is 30 while Beelzebub's level is 90

Devil Survivor : Asura level is 71, Beelzebub (Day 7) is 62, Beelzebub (Bel Rush) is 65 and Beelzebub (Yuzu route) is 73

Devil Survivor 2 : Asura level is 77, Beelzebub level is 91

Raidou 2 : Asura level is 80, Beelzebub level is 62


As you can see, the stats of these two are just jump from this to there. So we cant use the stats to scail the demons in the games. They must somehow have some relationship with each other or scail to the protagonists.

Who said Alice is data? Much like Beelzebub, she may just as well have come from somewhere in the Amala Network (notice that Beelzebub says "I came all this way for you." suggesting he's not even part of this system to begin with.

Your words are kinda... contradicted to what you said earlier "And Alice is different than her main continuity incarnation. The difference is that rather than weaker, she's actually stronger in the Desu2 continuity." suggesting that this is DeSu2 Alice only :P

Anyway, i did admited that this Beel is the same Beel from the mainline games. But if we scail anyone from the party to him then it would causes alot of inconsistent to the Triangulum Arc, which made the the fight with Beel seem like an outlier.

Also, just made a check to Alice fight...She doesnt have any quote to confirm that she's from the mainline like Beelzebub, or i just missing something (correct me if i'm wrong)

"Uuuh, no? Did you play the route where you kill Polaris and destroy the Akashic Record? Because I clearly remember Polaris and the Akashic Record going to hell in that route. So yeah, the endgame party CAN destroy the AR."

What ? O__O there are a route like that ?! i remember there are only 2 route that you can kill Polaris. Daichi route and Anguished One route. Even in Daichi route, i dont see Akashic Record getting destroyed, only Polaris's body got boomed.

And I don't know if it's just me, but people seem to simply forget that the Tsuutenkaku barriers were holding back not only the Septentriones

Interesting... can you provide the source ? if this was true then i think we can have the Septentriones at Low 2-C (Of course, Anguished One too).

(or was it the Multiverse? Don't remember this one)

Nah, universe. Only Hibiki's world was judged to be rotten to the core.

City Love Polaris?

Nah, she can keep the tier 2-B. But that's only when Polaris was in her throne ( in which she was for the whole game so we dont know how strong is she without Akashic Record, probally around Arcturus level )

 
@Magi

Lucifer probably got kicked from heaven by Merkabah if we can accept retcons.
 
And I'm not scaling Alice from being Lv.99

I'm scaling Alice from being an Ultimate Boss.
 
hmmm... i dont know if Merkabah was even existed back then or not o3o heh, the compedium said nothing about this though :P
 
P
Well, Lucifer DID need to assume a stronger form than usual to fight Merkabah (Yes, SMT IV Lucifer is strongest Lucifer)
 
The title "ultimate boss" is actually belong to the demons with the highest level in the game. I dont know, i have played SMT for years and havent seen anything that stated they are the Ultimate Boss. It could be the fan name for the strongest demon in the game. I dont know, please correct me if im wrong
 
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