Shigeo Kageyama (Mob Psycho 100) vs Mash Burnedead (Mashle) (8-2-0) (GRACE)

[NikHelton]

Mob fra

 

[NikHelton]

What's wrong with the Mash profile? Why is the value of his AP indicated in brackets?

Regarding Mob. In calculation 6-B, a small correction needs to be made, which was stipulated in the thread of the thread.
The calculation scales Mob from Toichiro's 4% when we should be using 3%.

Thus Mob and Mash will be equivalent in AP

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

Why is the value of his AP indicated in brackets?

Because make things easly

Basides, @Recon1511, you need to remove good part of the votes, since 90% of the reasons is thanks to the "Mob lifts Mash's weight" but this was debuked.

 

[Planck69]

No? It was one of the reasons. The others (energy blasts, developing new powers etc.) are still valid as far as I'm aware. They may change their votes based on any new arguments but like, me arguing with you on that one point doesn't represent all that ???% can do.

Like, you're really coming off as desperate here.

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

It's not that "immeasurably higher". ???% oneshots the value he scales to effortlessly, his forcefields are even stronger and both of them are in the same + section of the tier.

Mash's AP (At peak) ~ Doom's 30% ~ Mash's durability (At peak) > Mash (Holding back) ~ Domina's Summon > Mash playing with water > Domina's Secondth > 78.6 Teratons = 10x multiplier > Domina > How strong Mash was against Lévis > Lévis's Summon > How strong Lévis thought Mash was > Invariable Railgun = 7.86 Teratons

A lot of these ">" is a one shot

If the illusion is mind based, Mob has little issue on that front.

It is based on making you lose oxygen.

And again, relative speeds are important here

You missed the part where Mash can know shit before it happens by instinct and have speed boost that allows him to run and attack at FTE speed

The Danmaku part is good but like, not relevant when comparing it to the forcefields.

I have already explained the part about the force field

Trapping in barriers, he does with the school ghost in the first or second episode of S1, when he seals up the gym. Filling it up with an wide area blast is just a logical step forward when direct attacks aren't hitting him.

Assuming it is true, I still don't see why this would be a problem, since Mash can simply withstand the attack and then attack thanks to his insane stamina, or you know, break the barrier first

No? It was one of the reasons. The others (energy blasts, developing new powers etc.) are still valid as far as I'm aware. They may change their votes based on any new arguments but like, me arguing with you on that one point doesn't represent all that ???% can do.

Like, you're really coming off as desperate here.

People here believed that Mash couldn't even move lol. I don't think the votes should be counted considering that the reasoning has completely changed

 

[Planck69]

I somehow doubt that but you can ask then to clarify.

 

[AnAverageUsername]

Back, what did I miss

 

[Shmeatywerbenmanjenson]

Mob FRA

 

[AnAverageUsername]

Who's gonna tell them that I actually changed my vote earlier so grace would have actually started a while ago

 

[Shmeatywerbenmanjenson]

Who's gonna tell them that I actually changed my vote earlier so grace would have actually started a while ago

IDN King is making some good points though I still disagree with him saying Mash can still fly even through Mobs TK

It's up to you

 

[Recon1511]

I guess grace started, though I think King made more than decent arguments in favor of Mash that people here should consider.

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

I also doubt that Mob will be able to knock Mash out. Mash has shown he has enough stamina to keep fighting for weeks against opponents who are considered indestructible, to move easily even if his spine is cut, to fight even if his entire body is pierced by meter-sized thorns, to not be bothered by having every part of his body like his neck slashed, to scaling above wizards who can fight for an entire year

The arguments in favor of Mob are weak as ****. "He will blow up the horizon", something that means nothing since Mash can withstand or run away. Putting Mash inside a force field is also bullshit since he has already dealt with similar things.

Also, what is Mob's gonna do against techniques that amplify Mash's speed to a level that makes him FTE to opponents that are comparable to him? Or stealth + illusion? Mob at ???% is "stupid", he has no technique or strategy, he just attacks non-stop without thinking, which makes me doubt for a **** that he will be able to at least keep up with Mash or deal with any technique

Many things here were not even dreamed of being addressed

 

[azontr]

I'm honestly more convinced by @LIFE_OF_KING's arguments than any other argument for Mash.

 

[Planck69]

I also doubt that Mob will be able to knock Mash out. Mash has shown he has enough stamina to keep fighting for weeks against opponents who are considered indestructible, to move easily even if his spine is cut, to fight even if his entire body is pierced by meter-sized thorns, to not be bothered by having every part of his body like his neck slashed, to scaling above wizards who can fight for an entire year

He doesn't need to knock him out? He's trying to kill him.

The arguments in favor of Mob are weak as ****. "He will blow up the horizon", something that means nothing since Mash can withstand or run away. Putting Mash inside a force field is also bullshit since he has already dealt with similar things.

Something he can do repeatedly, with little issue. And again, he can make as many as needed on top of each other to do so.

Also, what is Mob's gonna do against techniques that amplify Mash's speed to a level that makes him FTE to opponents that are comparable to him? Or stealth + illusion? Mob at ???% is "stupid", he has no technique or strategy, he just attacks non-stop without thinking, which makes me doubt for a **** that he will be able to at least keep up with Mash or deal with any technique

???% being mindless is such a weird interpretation of him, since it comes from nowhere. He's just Mob, only that he views himself as the "real" one and has no qualms using his powers to the fullest. The main reason he was so sluggish with his attacks was that he was mentally fighting his other self while simultaneously crushing people who could do absolutely nothing to him.

The speed amps are admittedly an issue but again, ???% has better aerial mobility, can control the very air that Mash pushes against and so on.

Many things here were not even dreamed of being addressed

You can disagree with it, nothing wrong with that but like, saying this is disingenuous.

Anyway, seeing as this is still going on, how do we handle that? Grace is about to end but I'd rather not close the thread while new votes are coming in for both sides., even though that's the rule.

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

He doesn't need to knock him out? He's trying to kill him.

I'm literally saying that Mash fights even though his neck is slashed, his spine is destroyed, his body is pierced by thorns more than 1 meter long. If you think that energy blasts with lower AP than Mash's will be able to kill him that fast you are ******* wrong. You are assuming here that Mob will finish the fight in the first few seconds, that on the first move Mash will already lose without being able to fight back

Something he can do repeatedly, with little issue.

If he repeats the attack several times it will be even worse, since Mash said that the same attack does not work many times with him. No attack that Mash overcomes once will be useful again against him.

???% being mindless is such a weird interpretation of him, since it comes from nowhere. He's just Mob, only that he views himself as the "real" one and has no qualms using his powers to the fullest. The main reason he was so sluggish with his attacks was that he was mentally fighting his other self while simultaneously crushing people who could do absolutely nothing to him.

I didn't say Mob is mindless, I say he is stupid in combat. ???% has never faced any opponent who is not instantly crushed. He has no experience at all. It's like saying that a person who punch babies will defeat an MMA fighter

The speed amps are admittedly an issue but again, ???% has better aerial mobility, can control the very air that Mash pushes against and so on.

Then show an answer for the speed amplifier. mash can use it and deliver a straight punch to the chin, or a kick, knocking Mob out. Unlike Mob, Mash has a way to finish the fight quickly, since Mob is shit at stamina and I doubt he's going to take a straight punch to the chin from someone stronger than him. And no, I'm not using oneshot logic, I'm talking about human physiology, where we are easily put down with a punch to the chin. In case Mob has resisted something similar, I apologize for the mistake

 

[Planck69]

I'm literally saying that Mash fights even though his neck is slashed, his spine is destroyed, his body is pierced by thorns more than 1 meter long. If you think that energy blasts with lower AP than Mash's will be able to kill him that fast you are ******* wrong. You are assuming here that Mob will finish the fight in the first few seconds, that on the first move Mash will already lose without being able to fight back

The AP gap isn't insurmountable despite what you may think though. And I never assumed he'd finish it that fast. Just that he can keep using that attack until he's too damaged to survive.

If he repeats the attack several times it will be even worse, since Mash said that the same attack does not work many times with him. No attack that Mash overcomes once will be useful again against him.

That tells me nothing on how he handles it.

I didn't say Mob is mindless, I say he is stupid in combat. ???% has never faced any opponent who is not instantly crushed. He has no experience at all. It's like saying that a person who punch babies will defeat an MMA fighter

And, this isn't gonna come down to a skill fight. Not to mention he has awareness of all of Mob's experiences, which while short have him fight Evil Spirits and Toichiro, who were on and above his level.

Then show an answer for the speed amplifier. mash can use it and deliver a straight punch to the chin, or a kick, knocking Mob out. Unlike Mob, Mash has a way to finish the fight quickly, since Mob is shit at stamina and I doubt he's going to take a straight punch to the chin from someone stronger than him. And no, I'm not using oneshot logic, I'm talking about human physiology, where we are easily put down with a punch to the chin. In case Mob has resisted something similar, I apologize for the mistake

He breaks through the forcefield and ???% just blasts a shockwave outwards to make breathing room. Or worst comes to worst just abandons his physical body and fights as a spirit.

???% is superior to Mob, who can fight espers for the better part of a day though. Lower than Mash but not so low that he'd be helpless, his stamina is only ass for his unpowered state. And like, no this isn't the MMA. Mob's been beaten to within an inch of his life without passing out by Toichiro, I doubt the same would happen with a chin punch.

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

The speed amps are good and all but there is any proof that they are so big that let him run several kilometers against people of equal speed? Because otherwise he isn't dodging ??? attacks with how absurdly big their aoe is and how numerous they are.

Also, ??? showed to be able to fight even when his body didn't had the oxygen needed to function properly when Teruki asphyxiated Mob, this on top of the fact that Mob have showed to be able to fight with his soul, so a choke is completely useless and taking him down is impossible unless Mash kill his body and soul which is something Mash don't/can't do. There is also the fact that ??? absorb Mash and the surrounding energy so an endurance battle is something that Mash can't win.

And then there also is how ??? is bloodlusted and don't have the moral limits of Mob so he on top of his lethal attacks he can also just copy any of the sper power he have saw in the series.

There are several advantages that ??? have which are more likely to give him the win against Mash, so I'm also voting for him.

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

Just that he can keep using that attack until he's too damaged to survive.

Prove it, because Mash can fight opponents who use invisible attacks and weapons for weeks, and are also invincible. Mash only defeats these knights by being able to evolve through the weeks to a point where he defeats his opponent with one attack

That tells me nothing on how he handles it.

Attacks like this later become useless because they have become old in Mash's perspective

And, this isn't gonna come down to a skill fight

Mob has no experience in dealing with anyone like Mash, someone skilled, able to amplify speed at FTE levels, can adapt and predict attacks, has stealth and instincts able to detect when some shit is going to happen, know when some attack is dangerous before anything, and so on. The only thing Mob does is to crush opponents and throw some random attacks. It's not just because it's a "range fight" that means experience and skill is not a factor. In this state Mob does everything casually and I doubt that Mash couldn't kick his ass

Not to mention he has awareness of all of Mob's experiences, which while short have him fight Evil Spirits and Toichiro, who were on and above his level.

Toichiro was literally defeated after a while without much difficulty

He breaks through the forcefield and ???% just blasts a shockwave outwards to make breathing room

I dont understand anything here

Or worst comes to worst just abandons his physical body and fights as a spirit.

Scan. I doubt that he uses it in-character

???% is superior to Mob, who can fight espers for the better part of a day though. Lower than Mash but not so low that he'd be helpless, his stamina is only ass for his unpowered state. And like, no this isn't the MMA. Mob's been beaten to within an inch of his life without passing out by Toichiro, I doubt the same would happen with a chin punch.

Stamina doesn't help with a punch at the chin. Damage tolerance is what helps with something like that.

??? showed to be able to fight even when his body didn't had the oxygen needed to function properly when Teruki asphyxiated Mob,

No chance you are comparing these two cases. Mob was awakened after Teruki released him, not during. We don't know what would happen if Mob lost oxygen while at ???%. Furthermore, Mash's case is complementarily different, since he is able to knock out and create illusions without even the consciousness of his opponent noticing

The speed amps are good and all but there is any proof that they are so big that let him run several kilometers against people of equal speed?

Who says Mash needs to run kilometers before the shockwave? He only needs to stay a few meters away and run accordingly

Mob have showed to be able to fight with his soul,

I watched the anime, I know Mob can fight as a soul, but I don't remember anything about him being able to become a spirit while being knocked out by his opponent. It's something Mob needs his conscience to use

There is also the fact that ??? absorb Mash and the surrounding energy so an endurance battle is something that Mash can't win.

Mash resistis. Its on the profile

 

[azontr]

Yeah, I'm voting Mash. I think Life's arguments are a lot more convincing here.

 

[Recon1511]

Counted

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

No chance you are comparing these two cases. Mob was awakened after Teruki released him, not during. We don't know what would happen if Mob lost oxygen while at ???%. Furthermore, Mash's case is complementarily different, since he is able to knock out and create illusions without even the consciousness of his opponent noticing

From the moment Teruki released him until ??? acted Mob body didn't have time to get enough oxygen back and his consciousness was already lost, but even under your argument unless Mash choke Mob body for an entire hour (something ridiculously that he have never done as far I know) ??? would began to the fight again the moment he is released and then he would be even more bloodlusted than before. Don't wank the "illusions" of Mash, hallucinations for lack of oxygen is a completely normal phenomena that even the manga itself explain, also the scan show how the hallucinations lasted less than a second since afterwards the other dude already lost consciousness.

Who says Mash needs to run kilometers before the shockwave? He only needs to stay a few meters away and run accordingly

The attacks are several kilometers in size, not the shockwaves, the very attacks itself, and that's even more the case if ??? just decide to **** it and send all the surroundings to the space.

I watched the anime, I know Mob can fight as a soul, but I don't remember anything about him being able to become a spirit while being knocked out by his opponent. It's something Mob needs his conscience to use

The mind and soul are intrinsically connected in Mob Psycho 100, hence why espers like Mob are able to use their souls to fight, hence why ??? was able to fight when his brain was physiologically unable to work.

Mash resistis. Its on the profile

Ignoring the fact that is super doubious that he actually resist just because a stronger character that him resist absorption ??? is layered, his absorption also work in the spirit so unless the only possible soul resistance of Mash is layered he can't resist ???

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

Also, OP, the current votes for Mob are 10 counting my vote and AnAverageUsername who voted for Mob earlier (he even commented how you didn't noticed him and thus Grace started later than it should had).

 

[Planck69]

Grace might have already ended I think. I just wanted to address everything. Could be wrong tho.

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

If this match is added I will recreate the match. Decent arguments in favor of Mash didn't appear until afterwards. Most of the votes were with the reasoning that Mash couldn't even move or they didn't even know the character properly Besides, this key is gonna be 6-A very soon

 

[Recon1511]

Yeah grace is over already so the match can be added though I do believe a rematch should be considered

 

[NikHelton]

Arguments better left for later?

 

[AnAverageUsername]

Just wondering before this is closed, why wasn't UPM Mash used? I know Mash has a limited time in that mode, but that was only after his 3rd time using it, and even then, he only cramped up after getting sliced by Doom the wannabe Pancake Maker.

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

The mind and soul are intrinsically connected in Mob Psycho 100,

Which literally means nothing, literally nothing. In Bleach the soul is connected with the mind as well, and yet characters like Ichigo are not able to do anything while they sleep or when they are knocked out. They are knockouts as well as any normal human. Same thing with Hellsing, where blood conect soul, mind and body, and even then the characters can be knocked out and need to be awake to activate their abilities. Your logic doesn't have any logic. You need proof that it is impossible to knock out Mob without affecting his soul, otherwise everything you are talking about is ******* bullshit

The attacks are several kilometers in size, not the shockwaves

Simple... doesn't matter. The logic is still the same. Mash can just run. Besides, nobody here has even shown ONE SINGLE SCAN SHOWING THAT. Everyone starts saying things like "Mob can take everything into space ", "Mob can destroy the entire horizon ", "Mob can create a force field and make an explosion within it ", all with no scans. Anything that looked suspicious about Mash I used scans and if not it's because they are already in the profile, while everything about Mob looks like a "Trust me dude, ik anime real good". Characters have already battled against ???%, and all of them were not destroyed in the first instant, and Mob's attacks were extremely simple like "ima crush you with telekinesis". Even Reigen, a "normal human", was able to almost reach out and touch ???%

??? is layered, his absorption also work in the spirit so unless the only possible soul resistance of Mash is layered he can't resist ???

Yeah, first I would like to know how exactly Mob's absorption has layers and where you got that from. The fact that the profile has It only as "possible" it's because its outdated as ****, since currently even normal magic from Top Tier Wizards are able to hurt souls

And second, I would like to know how frequent this absorption is, and how it is used

From the moment Teruki released him until ??? acted Mob body didn't have time to get enough oxygen back and his consciousness was already lost, but even under your argument unless Mash choke Mob body for an entire hour (something ridiculously that he have never done as far I know) ??? would began to the fight again the moment he is released and then he would be even more bloodlusted than before. Don't wank the "illusions" of Mash, hallucinations for lack of oxygen is a completely normal phenomena that even the manga itself explain, also the scan show how the hallucinations lasted less than a second since afterwards the other dude already lost consciousness

The difference in the case with Teruki is that Mob knew perfectly well that he was ****** up, that he was being attacked by someone. He was desperate. The hallucinations created by Mash, despite following realistic logic, are exaggerated to the extreme, similar to what happens in Baki and Kengan. The opponent doesnt realize that he is being attacked, he imagines that he is winning and defeating the opponent. Mob's conscience would not realize that something is happening. Furthermore, Mob was only able to get up after the strangulation because ???% was an "inner demon," an opposing entity, so Mob getting knocked out "is not a problem", but we don't know the opposite. If ???% was suffocated and lost oxygen, we don't know what would happen.

 

[Planck69]

So uh, is grace up yet? I'll be honest, I'm really uninterested in engaging in this match much further so if grace hasn't concluded, it'll be up to y'all to sort it out.

 

[Epiccheev]

If Mash is becoming up to 6-A in this key i guess there's not much point. unless he will also keep a 6-B key?

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

So uh, is grace up yet? I'll be honest, I'm really uninterested in engaging in this match much further so if grace hasn't concluded, it'll be up to y'all to sort it out.

I think grace already ended (since Average voted for Mob grace started with Nik vote). I'm in the birthday of my mother so I'm also uninterested in futher continue, so I guess this can be closed.

 

[Planck69]

Somebody should add it first. Tell me here when that happens.

 

[AnAverageUsername]

If Mash is becoming up to 6-A in this key i guess there's not much point. unless he will also keep a 6-B key?

Nah, he will be keeping a 6-B key/statistic/variable. At his peak he'll be 6-A I think, High 6-A with UPM probably

 

[NikHelton]

Can you show the High 6-A calculation?

 

[Shmeatywerbenmanjenson]

Can you show the High 6-A calculation?

It's Multipliers and it's barely High 6-A

Mob would stomp

 

[NikHelton]

It's Multipliers and it's barely High 6-A

Mob would stomp

Damn, I don't like multiplier levels. Often this is just an inconsistency from the author

 

[AnAverageUsername]

Damn, I don't like multiplier levels. Often this is just an inconsistency from the author

Life_Of_King does agree about not liking them actually, but does say the multipliers are true.

It's Multipliers and it's barely High 6-A

Mob would stomp

Alright, uh, you might wanna see the latest Mashle chapters, cause uh....

Rhyo > Doom's 70% > How strong Doom thought Rhyo was > Doom's 60% > Orter + Rayne + Finn > 78.6 Petatons

And then Ryoh used his summons and then Thirds, so it would now look like...

Weakness Mode Mash > MAX Doom > 100% Doom > UPM Mash > 90% Doom > 80% Doom > Ryoh Hyperion Inclination > 7.86 Exatons=10x Multiplier > Ryoh Hyperion Summons > 786 petatons=10x multiplier > Base Ryoh

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

It's Multipliers and it's barely High 6-A

Mob would stomp

Actually there are so many multipliers that the value reached exatons

 

[Epiccheev]

Even a 2x multiplier can lead to ungodly stat inflation on shounen. A 10x multiplier in the other hand...

 

[Planck69]

I've been asked to close the thread since the match was added.