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Shigeo Kageyama High 6-C upgrade
- Thread starter Mxy5
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Removed text is strikethrough, new text is bold.
Also generally try to avoid scaling between different fictions via author statements about one character being comparable with another. It will usually be very uninformed assumptions, or hyperbole, and even if both stories have the same author,he or she may be biased, or not know exactly how powerful the different characters have been shown to be in relation to each other the portrayal power of the different characters in relation to each other may still contradict these statements.
Also generally try to avoid scaling between different fictions via author statements about one character being comparable with another. It will usually be very uninformed assumptions, or hyperbole, and even if both stories have the same author,
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Wording is not my strong suit so I am not entirely sure, and I am leaving for college right about now.
But, anything that keeps the spirit of "WoG can be used, but consistency takes presedence and can invalidate it's usage" should be okay with a side note that DC and Marvel and anything similar is much less likely to be affected by this due to the mess of multiple authors across years of serializations.
Perhaps Dargoo or another admin could conjure something more formal.
But, anything that keeps the spirit of "WoG can be used, but consistency takes presedence and can invalidate it's usage" should be okay with a side note that DC and Marvel and anything similar is much less likely to be affected by this due to the mess of multiple authors across years of serializations.
Perhaps Dargoo or another admin could conjure something more formal.
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Not gonna look deeper into the issue at hand right now, as it is kinda late here, but are we debating to change a general policy?
If so, that would deserve its own thread, no?
If so, that would deserve its own thread, no?
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No general policy being changed necessarily, we're just debating if this counts as a part of said policy
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@Ryu Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't the ???% something thats only activated if Mob loses conciousness? That isn't the same as 100% since Mob wanting to fight seriously can allow him to enter 100% even if not immediatelty, it's not as dependent on special circumstances as ???%.
Once again i'll bring up the Escanor example, Escanor is a character whose power depends on the time of day and while he's OP normally he becomes of the strongest characters a brief period during noon. Now if you get a statement like "If escanor gets serious, the fight is uncertain" you cannot take this to refer to that brief period when he's at his peak because he himself has no control over whether he gets into this state and isn't just him deciding to not hold back anymore.
Once again i'll bring up the Escanor example, Escanor is a character whose power depends on the time of day and while he's OP normally he becomes of the strongest characters a brief period during noon. Now if you get a statement like "If escanor gets serious, the fight is uncertain" you cannot take this to refer to that brief period when he's at his peak because he himself has no control over whether he gets into this state and isn't just him deciding to not hold back anymore.
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At the end of the story, Mob accepts ???% and now it's his natural power. That's why the key is called ???%/Shigeo Kageyama.
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It's not an arbitrary distinction. If an author states two characters from the same verse can fight each other he doesn't just give an opinion on how the two compare powerwise he basically informs us that if the two characters fought then fight would end up even. It's kinda like a statement based feat that's consistent with the story, it never actually happened but we know it's a feat the character is capable of. Similarly character A fighting B via WoG can be treated as a feat the character A is capable of, even if it doesn't happen in the story itself and we can scale him to the required power needed to pull off this "feat" regardless if the author paid attention to their displayed power levels or not.Ryukama said:
With two distinct verses the question becomes less "Is the outcome of the fight a canon fact for the two verses" and more "Did the author correctly compare the power of the two characters".
Do you think when a author compares two things in the same verse and when he compares two different things from different verse, it will affect facts in the involved verses to the same extent? If you do then by all means you can go through with the upgrade. But I don't. I think in this case it needs to be about the author actually being able to compare characters then only can the upgrade be considered legitimate.
What an author thinks about two characters from distinct stories has little more significance than answering some fan questions, while what he thinks about characters in the same story is a direct factor in how the story can progress and what is possible for that verse. I'm sorry but saying that there's no distinction between WoG regarding the same verse and WoG regarding the different verses is completely untrue.
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"If an author states two characters from the same verse can fight each other he doesn't just give an opinion on how the two compare powerwise he basically informs us that if the two characters fought then fight would end up even.
^ Just like how the author is informing us that if these 2 characters he wrote fought then the fight would end up even. It's the exact same thing.
"It's kinda like a statement based feat that's consistent with the story, it never actually happened but we know it's a feat the character is capable of. Similarly character A fighting B via WoG can be treated as a feat the character A is capable of, even if it doesn't happen in the story itself and we can scale him to the required power needed to pull off this "feat" regardless if the author paid attention to their displayed power levels or not."
Okay. And Mob fighting Tatsumaki or someone of that power level never actually happened but we know it's a feat he's capable of. Him fighting her via WoG can be treated as a feat that he's capable of, even if it doesn't happen in the stories themslves and we can scale him to the required power needed to pull this off. Which should at bare minimum be 1/3 of the feat Tatsu pulled off ultra casually with no doubt as to whether or not she could do it if we want to be as generous as possible.
"With two distinct verses the question becomes less "Is the outcome of the fight a canon fact for the two verses" and more "Did the author correctly compare the power of the two characters"."
As I've said many times now, the exact same thing could be said about Boros and Garou then. "Oh did ONE correctly compare the power of these two? I mean Garou doesn't have feats anywhere close to Boros's and they never fought in canon."
"Do you think when a author compares two things in the same verse and when he compares two different things from different verse, it will affect facts in the involved verses to the same extent?"
Argument from consequence. Just because accepting this will "affect them to some extent" doesn't mean it's invalid to accept.
"But I don't. I think in this case it needs to be about the author actually being able to compare characters then only can the upgrade be considered legitimate."
All of these are his own characters that he wrote. There is no reason to be perfectly confident that ONE can compare Boros and Garou and Golden Sperm and Tatsumaki yet completely doubt that he can compare Mob and Tatsumaki.
"What an author thinks about two characters from distinct stories has little more significance than answering some fan questions"
Which is what he did for Boros and Garou. Answered a fan question.
"while what he thinks about characters in the same story is a direct factor in how the story can progress and what is possible for that verse."
How Garou's power compares to Boros's literally makes zero difference in OPM's story progression. And as for "what is possible for that verse" ONE's statement is a direct factor in what is possible for the Mob verse.
"I'm sorry but saying that there's no distinction between WoG regarding the same verse and WoG regarding the different verses is completely untrue."
No it's still arbitrary. These is no valid reason to accept one of his statements and not the other. They're both accessments he made on his own characters, which while not supported in the series is also never contradicted.
^ Just like how the author is informing us that if these 2 characters he wrote fought then the fight would end up even. It's the exact same thing.
"It's kinda like a statement based feat that's consistent with the story, it never actually happened but we know it's a feat the character is capable of. Similarly character A fighting B via WoG can be treated as a feat the character A is capable of, even if it doesn't happen in the story itself and we can scale him to the required power needed to pull off this "feat" regardless if the author paid attention to their displayed power levels or not."
Okay. And Mob fighting Tatsumaki or someone of that power level never actually happened but we know it's a feat he's capable of. Him fighting her via WoG can be treated as a feat that he's capable of, even if it doesn't happen in the stories themslves and we can scale him to the required power needed to pull this off. Which should at bare minimum be 1/3 of the feat Tatsu pulled off ultra casually with no doubt as to whether or not she could do it if we want to be as generous as possible.
"With two distinct verses the question becomes less "Is the outcome of the fight a canon fact for the two verses" and more "Did the author correctly compare the power of the two characters"."
As I've said many times now, the exact same thing could be said about Boros and Garou then. "Oh did ONE correctly compare the power of these two? I mean Garou doesn't have feats anywhere close to Boros's and they never fought in canon."
"Do you think when a author compares two things in the same verse and when he compares two different things from different verse, it will affect facts in the involved verses to the same extent?"
Argument from consequence. Just because accepting this will "affect them to some extent" doesn't mean it's invalid to accept.
"But I don't. I think in this case it needs to be about the author actually being able to compare characters then only can the upgrade be considered legitimate."
All of these are his own characters that he wrote. There is no reason to be perfectly confident that ONE can compare Boros and Garou and Golden Sperm and Tatsumaki yet completely doubt that he can compare Mob and Tatsumaki.
"What an author thinks about two characters from distinct stories has little more significance than answering some fan questions"
Which is what he did for Boros and Garou. Answered a fan question.
"while what he thinks about characters in the same story is a direct factor in how the story can progress and what is possible for that verse."
How Garou's power compares to Boros's literally makes zero difference in OPM's story progression. And as for "what is possible for that verse" ONE's statement is a direct factor in what is possible for the Mob verse.
"I'm sorry but saying that there's no distinction between WoG regarding the same verse and WoG regarding the different verses is completely untrue."
No it's still arbitrary. These is no valid reason to accept one of his statements and not the other. They're both accessments he made on his own characters, which while not supported in the series is also never contradicted.
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- ONE stated Boros and Garou are on par with each other. Within the story they never have and never will fight each other. And one of them has much higher feats that the other. However these are ONE's own characters that he wrote, he should be able to compare them and nothing ever contradicted this statement.
- ONE stated Mob and Tastu are on par with each other. Within the story they never have and never will fight each other. And one of them has much higher feats that the other. However these are ONE's own characters that he wrote, he should be able to compare them and nothing ever contradicted this statement.
"Why does that matter?"
"Because maybe ONE didn't know how to correctly compare their powers. I mean one of them has much higher feats than the other after all."
"Well couldn't the exact same thing be said about Boros and Garou then? Since they never fought each other or were compared in canon, and one has much higher feats than the other? So I guess ONE didn't know how to correctly compare Boros and Garou's power"
"No because ONE wrote both character and him stating this can be treated as a feat Garou's capable of even if he hasn't done it since nothing contradicted it."
"Okay then ONE wrote both characters and him stating this can be treated as a feat Mob's capapable of even if he hasn't done it since nothing contradicted it."
"No because Mob and Tatsu are from 2 different stories."
"Why does that matter?"
"Because maybe ONE didn't know how to correctly compare..."
It's just going to be this rinse and repeat. So I'm probably gonna unfollow the thread soon. However I remain that both of these cases (outside of the arbitrary 2 stories distinction) are the exact same and there is no reason to accept one yet not the other.
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Ryukama makes sense imo
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>Exact same thing can be said about Garou vs Boros
Saying that ONE doesn't need to compare the power of the two when they are from the same story can be applied to Boros vs Garou because...ONE may not have compared the two....Come again?
>Argument from consequences
I'm saying the author shouldn't have the same power over canon when comparing things from different stories as when he compares things from the same story. You sure this an argument from consequence?
Saying that ONE doesn't need to compare the power of the two when they are from the same story can be applied to Boros vs Garou because...ONE may not have compared the two....Come again?
>Argument from consequences
I'm saying the author shouldn't have the same power over canon when comparing things from different stories as when he compares things from the same story. You sure this an argument from consequence?
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Ryu makes sense.
There's really just more guarantee in the case of the WoG being about two franchises by the same person.
There's really just more guarantee in the case of the WoG being about two franchises by the same person.
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"Saying that ONE doesn't need to compare the power of the two when they are from the same story can be applied to Boros vs Garou because...ONE may not have compared the two....Come again?"
ONE did compare Garou and Boros's power. He also compared Mob and Tatsumaki's. Your whole gripe with the latter is "Well ONE might not have correctly compared their power" which you can say the exact same thing about Garou and Boros then. They never fought in canon. One has much higher feats than the other. So maybe ONE just was wrong and didn't properly gauge Garou's power compared to Boros's. But then you insist those don't matter since they're his characters that he wrote, nothing contradicts the statement and as such this WoG statement can be treated as a feat Garou's capable of even if he never did it. Same with Mob then.
"I'm saying the author shouldn't have the same power over canon when comparing things from different stories as when he compares things from the same story. You sure this an argument from consequence?"
You didn't say that. You just went on about it will "affect things to different extents". But even then these are both his canons and his stories. He wrote both of them. So his WoG should apply to both in whatever way he says it. Unless in the case where the stories contradict his statement, which in this case they does not.
ONE did compare Garou and Boros's power. He also compared Mob and Tatsumaki's. Your whole gripe with the latter is "Well ONE might not have correctly compared their power" which you can say the exact same thing about Garou and Boros then. They never fought in canon. One has much higher feats than the other. So maybe ONE just was wrong and didn't properly gauge Garou's power compared to Boros's. But then you insist those don't matter since they're his characters that he wrote, nothing contradicts the statement and as such this WoG statement can be treated as a feat Garou's capable of even if he never did it. Same with Mob then.
"I'm saying the author shouldn't have the same power over canon when comparing things from different stories as when he compares things from the same story. You sure this an argument from consequence?"
You didn't say that. You just went on about it will "affect things to different extents". But even then these are both his canons and his stories. He wrote both of them. So his WoG should apply to both in whatever way he says it. Unless in the case where the stories contradict his statement, which in this case they does not.
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>You insist those don't matter since they're his characters that he wrote.
Why are you hearing things that I'm not saying? I do not claim they don't matter just because "they're his characters" and I made sure that the two characters having the same author wasn't my main point in justifying the Garou scaling being different from the Mob scaling. Believe it or not, I have a working brain and can see how stupid such a argument would be
At this point I'm not even sure how much you're listening to my arguments and if you'd just be content with ignoring all the differences between what I say and what you present as the opposition's viewpoint when it comes time to debunk them. Part of that may just be my fault in not conveying my thoughts properly, if so I apologize but right now I can't help but believe my participation here would just be a pointless endeavor.
You stated that author's say over canon should be just as important when comparing characters from different verse as when comparing characters from the same verse.
You also insist that the statement in fact refers to ???%
These are ultimately the two most important things that I needed to be true for the upgrade to go through. I still disagree with both but if you think both of these are true then alright, go through with upgrade. I'll just see if I can better come to terms with this in future or am able to voice my complaints against this more clearly.
I'm done with the thread.
Why are you hearing things that I'm not saying? I do not claim they don't matter just because "they're his characters" and I made sure that the two characters having the same author wasn't my main point in justifying the Garou scaling being different from the Mob scaling. Believe it or not, I have a working brain and can see how stupid such a argument would be
At this point I'm not even sure how much you're listening to my arguments and if you'd just be content with ignoring all the differences between what I say and what you present as the opposition's viewpoint when it comes time to debunk them. Part of that may just be my fault in not conveying my thoughts properly, if so I apologize but right now I can't help but believe my participation here would just be a pointless endeavor.
You stated that author's say over canon should be just as important when comparing characters from different verse as when comparing characters from the same verse.
You also insist that the statement in fact refers to ???%
These are ultimately the two most important things that I needed to be true for the upgrade to go through. I still disagree with both but if you think both of these are true then alright, go through with upgrade. I'll just see if I can better come to terms with this in future or am able to voice my complaints against this more clearly.
I'm done with the thread.
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"Why are you hearing things that I'm not saying? I do not claim they don't matter just because "they're his characters" and I made sure that the two characters having the same author wasn't my main point in justifying the Garou scaling being different from the Mob scaling."
You support the WoG because he wrote these characters therefore he has WoG over them. Them being his characters is obviously a main factor in that. If some random person who didn't write Boros and Garou said they were equal you (rightfully) wouldn't at all humor the statement. It's because ONE himself said that it's at all considered. Also in each one of your attempts to argue that the Garou scaling is different, I brought up how it's actually still the same.
Both cases are an author stating that two characters he wrote are on par with each other. These characters didn't fight each other and one of them has much higher feats, yet this is WoG and nothing contradicts it. The only difference is in one case the characters come from 2 different stories the author wrote instead of the same one he wrote. Which is an arbitrary difference. Ant and you kept saying it's important because them being from 2 different stories means it's questionable if ONE correctly compared their powers. Even though as I've mentioned countless times now by that logic it's also questionable if ONE correctly compared Boros and Garou's power.
"At this point I'm not even sure how much you're listening to my arguments and if you'd just be content with ignoring all the differences between what I say and what you present as the opposition's viewpoint when it comes time to debunk them."
I directly addressed your quotes themselves in the 3 posts ago. Just because I and most other people on this thread disagree does not mean we don't know what you're saying.
"You stated that author's say over canon should be just as important when comparing characters from different verse as when comparing characters from the same verse."
When all of these are his own characters and verses that he wrote, then yes. As long as nothing contradicts it, which it doesn't. Again, no valid reason has been given why an author suddenly loses WoG if he's comparing 2 of his own stories to each other.
"You also insist that the statement in fact refers to ???%"
Because it does. ???% is when Mob gets serious both in terms of not holding back and emotionally. The whole "he can't obtain it under normal circumstances" is already irrelevant since it's never said he needs to get serious under normal circumstances, this is still by definition him getting serious despite that and 100% isn't obtained under normal circumstances either. But that on top of the fact that Mob now has concious control over ???% and that becomes his natural power just makes it completely moot. Also if it were 100% that already made it questionable of Tatsu could beat him then in ???% he'd definitively curbstomp.
"I'm done with the thread."
Alright me too then.
You support the WoG because he wrote these characters therefore he has WoG over them. Them being his characters is obviously a main factor in that. If some random person who didn't write Boros and Garou said they were equal you (rightfully) wouldn't at all humor the statement. It's because ONE himself said that it's at all considered. Also in each one of your attempts to argue that the Garou scaling is different, I brought up how it's actually still the same.
Both cases are an author stating that two characters he wrote are on par with each other. These characters didn't fight each other and one of them has much higher feats, yet this is WoG and nothing contradicts it. The only difference is in one case the characters come from 2 different stories the author wrote instead of the same one he wrote. Which is an arbitrary difference. Ant and you kept saying it's important because them being from 2 different stories means it's questionable if ONE correctly compared their powers. Even though as I've mentioned countless times now by that logic it's also questionable if ONE correctly compared Boros and Garou's power.
"At this point I'm not even sure how much you're listening to my arguments and if you'd just be content with ignoring all the differences between what I say and what you present as the opposition's viewpoint when it comes time to debunk them."
I directly addressed your quotes themselves in the 3 posts ago. Just because I and most other people on this thread disagree does not mean we don't know what you're saying.
"You stated that author's say over canon should be just as important when comparing characters from different verse as when comparing characters from the same verse."
When all of these are his own characters and verses that he wrote, then yes. As long as nothing contradicts it, which it doesn't. Again, no valid reason has been given why an author suddenly loses WoG if he's comparing 2 of his own stories to each other.
"You also insist that the statement in fact refers to ???%"
Because it does. ???% is when Mob gets serious both in terms of not holding back and emotionally. The whole "he can't obtain it under normal circumstances" is already irrelevant since it's never said he needs to get serious under normal circumstances, this is still by definition him getting serious despite that and 100% isn't obtained under normal circumstances either. But that on top of the fact that Mob now has concious control over ???% and that becomes his natural power just makes it completely moot. Also if it were 100% that already made it questionable of Tatsu could beat him then in ???% he'd definitively curbstomp.
"I'm done with the thread."
Alright me too then.
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Before I sign off though I'm going to address concerns of this setting a "dangerous precedent". It won't. Every other case of scaling between different franchises has nothing to do with this one.
Marvel and DC have countless stories and countless continuities written by countless different authors with often times radically different ideas of how powerful these characters are. So it's completely incomparable to a single person writing one story with one continuity comparing it to another one story with one continuity he solely wrote.
As for crossover fights, those are almost never canon. And if it were and let's say Luffy can now fight on par with SSB Goku. Well that's clearly an outlier for Luffy.
What if the author says his character is as powerful as another character he wrote who's vastly more powerful? Well it's discarded because the story itself demonstrably disproves his statement. If one of the author's characters broke his hand trying to crack a boulder and the other split the planet in half, yet he tried claiming they're equally as strong, we can discard the claim because they're proven to not be. However if nothing contradicts the statement, we should be able to accept it. At least, if we're going to accept Boros vs Garou on those grounds.
Now with that I'm done with the thread.
Marvel and DC have countless stories and countless continuities written by countless different authors with often times radically different ideas of how powerful these characters are. So it's completely incomparable to a single person writing one story with one continuity comparing it to another one story with one continuity he solely wrote.
As for crossover fights, those are almost never canon. And if it were and let's say Luffy can now fight on par with SSB Goku. Well that's clearly an outlier for Luffy.
What if the author says his character is as powerful as another character he wrote who's vastly more powerful? Well it's discarded because the story itself demonstrably disproves his statement. If one of the author's characters broke his hand trying to crack a boulder and the other split the planet in half, yet he tried claiming they're equally as strong, we can discard the claim because they're proven to not be. However if nothing contradicts the statement, we should be able to accept it. At least, if we're going to accept Boros vs Garou on those grounds.
Now with that I'm done with the thread.
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Made a small grammar error; should be "the portrayal of the different characters' power in relation to each other may still..."
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I'll go ahead and update Mob's AP value, I feel Tatsu scaling to his speed might need to be a seperate discussion between OPM supporters.
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Okay. Are the rest of you fine with if I update the Editing Rules page with Dargoo's text?
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I disagree.Dargoo Faust said:
If the entire reason for Mob being High 6C is because we don't know who would win, Tats would have to be Sub Rel
No one scales to Tats either
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If he really was beneath her, there wouldn't even be a question of who would win. Tats would instantly win. Not to mention Mob doesn't have any sort of regenerative ability. It's not as if ???% is reliant on speed.
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Hence why she should be Sub Rel
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Oh that wasn't addressed to you lol. I was in agreement
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I was meaning to say if Sub Rel for Tatsumaki isn't an outlier for her current feats; or if her speed hasn't shown upper limits similar to ???% Mob's AP.
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MHS+ casually on top of her not scaling up anyone makes it consistent to say the least
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Oh, that should be fine, then, considering Mob's Sub-Rel is relatively close to baseline.
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It looks good to me.
Not much is really changing, it's just stressed that authors have some benefit of the doubt to start off with before we look over consistency with power in the verses they authrored.
Not much is really changing, it's just stressed that authors have some benefit of the doubt to start off with before we look over consistency with power in the verses they authrored.
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I have updated the Editing Rules page. My apologies about the head glitch earlier. It is a side-effect of handling too many tasks at once:
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/index.php?title=Editing_Rules&diff=4091866&oldid=3728010
Does the Crossovers page need to be somewhat updated as well?
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/index.php?title=Editing_Rules&diff=4091866&oldid=3728010
Does the Crossovers page need to be somewhat updated as well?
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