Shibai Ōtsutsuki vs 666:Satan - Ōtsutsuki God vs The Champion Among Gods

[DavidTPPM]

1. Is it accepted in the layering thread?

It was accepted by staff members in it's own thread which I was told is more than enough.

Naruto does have layers but no one ever bothered to apply.
I doubt if it matters, omipotence would still kick in immediately as it also works subconsciously.

How?

2. You'd have to give me an instance coz I'm pretty sure for satans case it's specifically raw power.

Sure I have several. The most blatant one is here. Satan sees Mori as much weaker and can't recognize him based on his power even in his Jin form but then sees him using martial arts in the Dan form making him see Mori as stronger and recognize him.
With the raw power difference between the Jin and Dan forms being directly shown as the difference between destroying a tree and wiping out the entire forest.

3. He'd try to copy it and fail. That in itself has given shibai enough time for a number of wincons I.e EM or heck just sending him to daikokuten dimension.

Why would he do so? When he copied Jeahbongchim he also knew about it's limitations (rebound) so why wouldn't he know about the limitations of Omnipotence?

1. You'd have to proof they are biological traits.

Satan straight up grew Odins arms bro I'm pretty sure that's a biological trait. Also Satan copied the sages wisdom which is literally a dojutsu lmao

2. Trying to copy stuff like RW , EE, mind manipulation e.t.c is itself powrr mimicry. They did copy it, stated by amado. They just couldn't get the real thing but a close imitation.

They tried to replicate it that's not power mimicry in the supernatural sense.

3. This is just being disingenuous. If he could then he would have an at least possibly (all goh abilities).

Funny thing is he does have all the relevant abilities of people he fought. He copied Daewis martial arts, the sages wisdom, Moris jeabongchim and clones, all of Mujins, and even the arms of Odin and sound of diamond sutra.

 

[karo_senpaii]

Why are you talking about Shinjutsu now? We're talking about Kekkei Genkai, which you brought up:

In case you forgot. Shinjutsu is an entirely different part of the debate.

I'm not stretching anything, I'm using basic reasoning. Trying to recreate something is not power mimicry, objectively, and it's not an argument I'm planning to have.

It would be an NLF to assume he can copy anything outside of his own verse. It's not an NLF to assume he can copy abilities from people in his own verse when he's copied abilities from people near the very top of the GoH pecking order. If he can copy Mujin Park's abilities he can copy the random guy Mori beat the hell out of in the first 60 something chapters.

And no, not only the Supreme Gods have it.

1. No i said sharingan has power mimicry and it can't copy kekei genkai talk less of shinjutsu. You said it's coz kekei genkai are biological. I said it doesn't apply to shinjutsu. Simple. What exactly did you think I was driving at with sharingan or don't you know shibai abilities are shinjutsu

3. Go and read the definition of power mimicry on the site. It is just copying someone powers. They said people tried to copy shinjutsu and what they got is shinjutsu, heck sharingan is listed as an example.

4. Again read the power mimicry page. NLF is for saying he can copy any ability thrown at him. Nowhere is it stated that he can copy it as long as it is in his verse. Also site the example of RW? Did he copy mujin RW? No.
4.

 

[azontr]

No i said sharingan has power mimicry and it can't copy kekei genkai talk less of shinjutsu.

That is literally not what you said. You are adding things to your argument mid-way and pretending like that's what you meant when it's not. I'll go over what both of us actually said so that we both understand the record. What I said is this:

The point is that the argument that Sharingan being unable to copy Shibai's abilities isn't because Shibai or whatever Jutsu he uses has a resistance, but because the Sharingan literally cannot copy innate or biological abilities.

"Innate or biological abilities." Meaning, abilities that aren't physical techniques, or Ninjutsu that can be learned via practice, which have specific hand sign movements that can be physically replicated. Ninjutsu are not unique to the user. Combat skills are not unique to the user. If it can be learned, the Sharingan can copy it. If it can't be learned, the Sharingan cannot copy it. Kekkei Genkai do not have power mimicry resistance because the Sharingan isn't able to copy genetic skills.

Here's what YOU said:

No. Sharingan can also copy abilities but they can't copy kekkei genkai.

There's not a single word of you talking about kekkei genkai and shinjutsu in the same post until you decided to change your argument (which is still wrong). If you wanted to communicate something different then the words I just quoted, then you did not succeed.

Go and read the definition of power mimicry on the site. It is just copying someone powers. They said people tried to copy shinjutsu and what they got is shinjutsu, heck sharingan is listed as an example

You haven't addressed the argument. Telling me to read the power mimicry page doesn't change the fact that attempting to recreate something isn't power mimicry.

Again read the power mimicry page. NLF is for saying he can copy any ability thrown at him. Nowhere is it stated that he can copy it as long as it is in his verse.

He literally has copied every ability thrown at him in the verse. Every ability that has effected him, he has copied it. He copied so well that he copied a dude's arms when he lost his arms. This isn't NLF, this is again basic reasoning.

Also site the example of RW

Read the pages. Not my responsibility to spoonfeed you information that's readily available to you.

Did he copy mujin RW? No.

Now this is being disingenuous. You clearly do not intend to address my argument.

I've seen no argument in Shibai's favor that does anything to Satan before Satan breathes him out of existence, so I'm voting him.

 

[karo_senpaii]

It was accepted by staff members in it's own thread which I was told is more than enough.

How?

Sure I have several. The most blatant one is here. Satan sees Mori as much weaker and can't recognize him based on his power even in his Jin form but then sees him using martial arts in the Dan form making him see Mori as stronger and recognize him.
With the raw power difference between the Jin and Dan forms being directly shown as the difference between destroying a tree and wiping out the entire forest.

Why would he do so? When he copied Jeahbongchim he also knew about it's limitations (rebound) so why wouldn't he know about the limitations of Omnipotence?

Satan straight up grew Odins arms bro I'm pretty sure that's a biological trait. Also Satan copied the sages wisdom which is literally a dojutsu lmao

They tried to replicate it that's not power mimicry in the supernatural sense.

Funny thing is he does have all the relevant abilities of people he fought. He copied Daewis martial arts, the sages wisdom, Moris jeabongchim and clones, all of Mujins, and even the arms of Odin and sound of diamond sutra.

1. Tbh i was told it wasn't enough hence why we still had to take the sharingan layering to the layering thread.

2. Paralysed or not it doesn't stop omnipotencé. It can also kick in subconsciously and the mere thought of him thinking he doesn't want to die would activate it.
3. Copying shinjutsu started with otsusuki. It definitely was supernatural, also otsusuki don't train for abilities, noted by momo so it straight up was i see i copy.

4. Those are not stuff you compare with RW. ALso why did he not copy muzan RW? oh wait not sure muzan had it yet. Either way it still falls under NLF

That is literally not what you said. You are adding things to your argument mid-way and pretending like that's what you meant when it's not. I'll go over what both of us actually said so that we both understand the record. What I said is this:

"Innate or biological abilities." Meaning, abilities that aren't physical techniques, or Ninjutsu that can be learned via practice, which have specific hand sign movements that can be physically replicated. Ninjutsu are not unique to the user. Combat skills are not unique to the user. If it can be learned, the Sharingan can copy it. If it can't be learned, the Sharingan cannot copy it. Kekkei Genkai do not have power mimicry resistance because the Sharingan isn't able to copy genetic skills.

Here's what YOU said:

There's not a single word of you talking about kekkei genkai and shinjutsu in the same post until you decided to change your argument (which is still wrong). If you wanted to communicate something different then the words I just quoted, then you did not succeed.

You haven't addressed the argument. Telling me to read the power mimicry page doesn't change the fact that attempting to recreate something isn't power mimicry.

He literally has copied every ability thrown at him in the verse. Every ability that has effected him, he has copied it. He copied so well that he copied a dude's arms when he lost his arms. This isn't NLF, this is again basic reasoning.

Read the pages. Not my responsibility to spoonfeed you information that's readily available to you.

Now this is being disingenuous. You clearly do not intend to address my argument.

I've seen no argument in Shibai's favor that does anything to Satan before Satan breathes him out of existence, so I'm voting him.

1. Wrong. It's coz they are hereditory. Sharingan is an otsusuki doujutsu, the clan does not train for abilities and they mock people that do so. It means the eye was still effective for abilities you don't train for but not biological
2. Don't separate paragraphs. They are meant to be read together. IF you did the "also" starting the next sentence and the "still failed" ending it would have made you know it's meant to be read together trying to say nothing in the ninjutsu category worked to create shinjutsu
3. word play. mimicry is a form of re creating
4. for some reason the abilities he needs are not part. Not to mention they are high level abilities. This is Blatant NLF
5. There is no RW on satan page
vote who you want. I'm not stopping you

 

[DavidTPPM]

I feel like Karo is being very misleading and banking on Azontrs lack of knowledge on Boruto (whether purposely or accidentally, idk).
Shinjutsu aren't superior to ninjutsu because they're harder to copy but because they don't need hand signs. Some shinjutsu listed are literally just shit like shooting lightning and making storms. Which isn't even that impressive in-universe given normal humans can create lightning without handsigns.

So Shibais abilities being shinjutsu is completely irrelevant here and has nothing to do with how hard they are to copy. Satans copy hax have done far more impressive things that copy lightning bolts

 

[azontr]

I feel like Karo is being very misleading and banking on Azontrs lack of knowledge on Boruto (whether purposely or accidentally, idk).
Shinjutsu aren't superior to ninjutsu because they're harder to copy but because they don't need hand signs. Some shinjutsu listed are literally just shit like shooting lightning and making storms. Which isn't even that impressive in-universe given normal humans can create lightning without handsigns.

So Shibais abilities being shinjutsu is completely irrelevant here and has nothing to do with how hard they are to copy. Satans copy hax have done far more impressive things that copy lightning bolts

Thanks, this is very good to know and basically only reinforces my vote for Satan even more.

 

[karo_senpaii]

I feel like Karo is being very misleading and banking on Azontrs lack of knowledge on Boruto (whether purposely or accidentally, idk).
Shinjutsu aren't superior to ninjutsu because they're harder to copy but because they don't need hand signs. Some shinjutsu listed are literally just shit like shooting lightning and making storms. Which isn't even that impressive in-universe given normal humans can create lightning without handsigns.

So Shibais abilities being shinjutsu is completely irrelevant here and has nothing to do with how hard they are to copy. Satans copy hax have done far more impressive things that copy lightning bolts

I'm not. I never said shinjutsu are superior. They just failed at recreating them. Also those stuff are not shinjutsu, otsusuki still use ninjutsu i mean it came from them.
David the ability in question is reality warping and casuality manipulation. IF this was some basic shit i probably won't even argue, heck i've said it that i'm not even voting yet. The problem is this is as blatant as it gets with NLF. Does the argument make any sense? someone in the verse has RW and as such satan should be able to copy it coz he copied telekenesis and cloning? wtf is going on here?

 

[Robo432343]

shibai is a 4-D being satan cant interact with bro

 

[azontr]

someone in the verse has RW and as such satan should be able to copy it coz he copied telekenesis and cloning? wtf is going on here?

Not even close to what me or David have said. You're continuing to be disingenuous, and it's hypocritical.

 

[karo_senpaii]

With all due respect GOH supporters your arguments are very poor.
You say satan can copy abilities
I say it's a NLF to say he can copy anything especially high level abilities like RW or CM or Time manipulation
The next step is to provide a convincing arguments as to why you think he can copy abilities at that level


For some reason the best argument you guys could come up with is "there is RW in his verse" and " he copied some clones and gravity manipulation" . That's just ass.

 

[azontr]

Again, not what we said. I do not mean to be rude, but it seems to be a consistent issue in this debate that you are failing to properly read or remember what has been argued.

 

[karo_senpaii]

Satan can copy basically any ability in GoH, including both Time Stop and Reality Warping. The only characters outside of his copy range would be the tier 2's with 4-D hax. Idk about causality stuff but the other two should easily be within Satan's repertoire.

not what you said bro. Sure alright. Proof "trust me bro"

 

[DavidTPPM]

1. Tbh i was told it wasn't enough hence why we still had to take the sharingan layering to the layering thread.

I asked about it and if the CRT was made after the creation of the HLET then it's fine. Sharingan layers were iirc made before the HLET so it had to be re-evaluated.

2. Paralysed or not it doesn't stop omnipotencé. It can also kick in subconsciously and the mere thought of him thinking he doesn't want to die would activate it.

But he wouldn't just be paralyzed. He'd be knocked unconscious like Ahan was. Hell Mori straight up depowered people with his aura as well.
And I don't remember omnipotence ever acting subconsciously. If you're referring to Ada that's not subconscious use of omnipotence. Her omnipotence was triggered by Kawakis conscious wish. So even tho she herself didn't do anything consciously, she still needed Kawakis conscious desperate wish to activate.

3. Copying shinjutsu started with otsusuki. It definitely was supernatural, also otsusuki don't train for abilities, noted by momo so it straight up was i see i copy.

What? My point is that ninjutsu isn't a copy of shinjutsu because of supernatural power mimicry but like you said, because of "I see I copy".
Ninjutsu is a copy same way if I saw someone idk, do a kick and I replicated it. But by actual power mimicry hax.

4. Those are not stuff you compare with RW. ALso why did he not copy muzan RW? oh wait not sure muzan had it yet.

He didn't need to copy Mujins RW because Mujin didn't use it on him

Either way it still falls under NLF

I have a feeling you don't fully get NLF because it really doesn't.

I'm not. I never said shinjutsu are superior. They just failed at recreating them.

Yeah which is irrelevant because failing to recreate ≠ failing to copy via supernatural power mimicry.

Also those stuff are not shinjutsu, otsusuki still use ninjutsu i mean it came from them.

They're literally used as examples of Shinjutsu on his profile and by Amado...

David the ability in question is reality warping and casuality manipulation. IF this was some basic shit i probably won't even argue, heck i've said it that i'm not even voting yet. The problem is this is as blatant as it gets with NLF. Does the argument make any sense? someone in the verse has RW and as such satan should be able to copy it coz he copied telekenesis and cloning? wtf is going on here?

Not what I said tho? That's just a very blatant strawman…

 

[karo_senpaii]

let's wrap this sharade up. In less than 150 words like my guy saitama says explain why you think satan can copy RW or casuality manipulation, heck even time stop

Not what I said tho? That's just a very blatant strawman…

 

[azontr]

not what you said bro. Sure alright. Proof "trust me bro"

You have a core misunderstanding of the definition of an NLF. An NLF would be me saying Satan can copy anything at all in any verse with no limitations whatsoever. Me saying Satan can copy abilities from people who are magnitudes lower in the GoH pecking order than the people he is shown to copy is not an NLF.

You, quite literally, do not comprehend what we are saying. Quoting my post doesn't change that.

 

[karo_senpaii]

You have a core misunderstanding of the definition of an NLF. An NLF would be me saying Satan can copy anything at all in any verse with no limitations whatsoever. Me saying Satan can copy abilities from people who are magnitudes lower in the GoH pecking order than the people he is shown to copy is not an NLF.

You, quite literally, do not comprehend what we are saying. Quoting my post doesn't change that.

that's still a NLf. you're comparing apples to oranges. A low level character having RW does not grant someone who copied a high level characters sound manipulation ability to copy it. Like it just doesn't, the person's strength is irrelevant unless it's Higher D

 

[DavidTPPM]

let's wrap this sharade up. In less than 150 words like my guy saitama says explain why you think satan can copy RW or casuality manipulation, heck even time stop

I'm just going to end the omnipotence debate without any potential NLF misunderstandings.

Ada literally gained the omnipotence as well as resistance to omnipotence by gaining Shibais cells. Satan can not only copy the abilities of other people's unique body parts (like sages wisdom) but straight up their entire limbs. Meaning when Satan reads Shibais mind and finds out about omnipotence he'd immediately find out it needs certain genes to activate it and either replicate their function (like with sages wisdom) or straight up grow something like Shibais arms.

In the meantime, speaking of NLFs, I'd love to see evidence Shibai can reality warp 2 quintillion opponents, all thousands of times stronger than himself, all imposing a crippling fear aura throughout the entire solar system.

 

[azontr]

thousands of times

Billions of times*

 

[karo_senpaii]

I'm just going to end the omnipotence debate without any potential NLF misunderstandings.

Ada literally gained the omnipotence as well as resistance to omnipotence by gaining Shibais cells. Satan can not only copy the abilities of other people's unique body parts (like sages wisdom) but straight up their entire limbs. Meaning when Satan reads Shibais mind and finds out about omnipotence he'd immediately find out it needs certain genes to activate it and either replicate their function (like with sages wisdom) or straight up grow something like Shibais arms.

In the meantime, speaking of NLFs, I'd love to see evidence Shibai can reality warp 2 quintillion opponents, all thousands of times stronger than himself, all imposing a crippling fear aura throughout the entire solar system.

1. gaining cells does not grant the ability. all kara got cells, some got nothing, some got something different than omnipotence. This is literally a one in million chance
2. ehn well i never said shibai would win though, i haven't even decided. But i would say stick to one wincon. If satan starting move is to read minds then if he fails to get omnipotence by the time he can do another thing shibai would have won. Reprogramming him or putting him under EM or MM is enough or just sealing him in Daikokuten. Now is satan first move cloning or reading shibai mind?

 

[DavidTPPM]

Billions of times*

Tbh I didn't actually do the math (although I should have probably known the gap is that big since I made both the calc Satan scales to and the original 4-B calc Shibai scales to)

 

[azontr]

Satan's first move really doesn't matter in the long run. Anything he does, even the tiniest movement, will obliterate Shibai.

Tbh I didn't actually do the math (although I should have probably known the gap is that big since I made both the calc Satan scales to and the original 4-B calc Shibai scales to)

I did do the math, and Satan is 728,765,477,000 times stronger.

 

[DavidTPPM]

1. gaining cells does not grant the ability. all kara got cells, some got nothing, some got something different than omnipotence. This is literally a one in million chance

Yeah because all they got was a small piece of Shibais corpse lmao. Satan is straight up capable of growing entire limbs with the intent to replicate omnipotence so he's not restricted to same chance as who got Shibais dead toenail implanted.

2. ehn well i never said shibai would win though, i haven't even decided. But i would say stick to one wincon. If satan starting move is to read minds then if he fails to get omnipotence by the time he can do another thing shibai would have won. Reprogramming him or putting him under EM or MM is enough or just sealing him in Daikokuten. Now is satan first move cloning or reading shibai mind?

First thing that happens imo is that Shibai fucing collapses from Satans presence same way Ahan did from a mere executive level fear hax.
Besides that it's 50/50 as Satan tends to spam both clones and mind reading. The thing is that those 2 are not mutually exclusive as far as we know so he could just do all 3 of these at once. In other words he would probably create quintillions of clones while reading his mind as Shibai struggles to not collapse from Satans mere presence.

 

[Robo432343]

satan fra

 

[karo_senpaii]

Yeah because all they got was a small piece of Shibais corpse lmao. Satan is straight up capable of growing entire limbs with the intent to replicate omnipotence so he's not restricted to same chance as who got Shibais dead toenail implanted.

First thing that happens imo is that Shibai fucing collapses from Satans presence same way Ahan did from a mere executive level fear hax.
Besides that it's 50/50 as Satan tends to spam both clones and mind reading. The thing is that those 2 are not mutually exclusive as far as we know so he could just do all 3 of these at once. In other words he would probably create quintillions of clones while reading his mind as Shibai struggles to not collapse from Satans mere presence.

1. that's a reasoning you just made up. More body parts =/ getting it. You could have his whole body and still not getting it. Also why are you assuming shibai in the moment of activating his ability is thinking of his body parts being the key. That's so out of pocket and we have no idea shibai even knows implanting his cells can grant shinjutsu. It's something no one has done and amado even did it hopefully. It's like hashirama thibnking his cells grant wood release
2. I guess we're back to this. Omnipotence would still kick in and protect him subconsciously and he can't do all 3 at once when shibai moves just require thinking. Oh i remember you talking about Ada. It was subconscious, that's how she got charm . Kawaki case is just different, i guess otsusuki can sort of forcefully trigger it

 

[karo_senpaii]

Ironically I'm still voting for satan. the fear hax thing is just kinda hard to argue against

 

[GodSinBad2280]

Ironically I'm still voting for satan. the fear hax thing is just kinda hard to argue against

It's not strange at all, brother. As you can see, Satan's power mimicry ability is extremely strong, and he is incredibly more powerful than Shibai.

 

[DavidTPPM]

1. that's a reasoning you just made up. More body parts =/ getting it. You could have his whole body and still not getting it.

Uhh no that's just what we see in the verse. Having a small amount of Hyuga genes for example only results in Kohinatas only occasionally getting the Byakugan and even when they do they only get 1 instead of 2. Obito and Zetsu only got small amounts of Hashirama cells and could only make small wooden structures while Madara got a wholeass Hashirama face on his chest and could replicate everything Hashirama could (except shinsu Senju as he didn't have sage mode). More of certain genes = more genetic traits is not only a biological fact but also consistent in-universe.

Also why are you assuming shibai in the moment of activating his ability is thinking of his body parts being the key.

He doesn't need to. Satan doesn't read your thoughts he reads your entire memory. He literally used the kick of blue dragon by reading Daewis mind despite Daewi NOT EVEN KNOWING THE ATTACK.
Same way Mori wasn't using jeahbongchim on earth as to not endanger it and yet Satan copied it as well as found out about rebound.

That's so out of pocket and we have no idea shibai even knows implanting his cells can grant shinjutsu. It's something no one has done and amado even did it hopefully. It's like hashirama thibnking his cells grant wood release

I mean sure but if we wanna get technical we also don't even know if Shibai would use omnipotence offensively in character.

But it's actually kinda worse because Shibai should by all means have at least Momoshiki levels of knowledge and Momoshiki knows omnipotence is a technique of Otsutsuki gods. Godhood being something achieved through evolution/absorption of genetic material. Or in other words, Shibai should 100% be aware of the fact that omnipotence is tied to his genetic material.

(Also he can see all possible futures meaning he also should have seen Amado giving Ada the omnipotence)

2. I guess we're back to this. Omnipotence would still kick in and protect him subconsciously and he can't do all 3 at once when shibai moves just require thinking.

Shibai can't exactly do much active thinking while he's getting mindfucked by fear. Also where did you get thought based omnipotence? I mean it technically does only need a thought but it's still a pretty long process of activation. FTL+ character used it and multiple MHS+ characters could notice its being used before it was finished.

Oh i remember you talking about Ada. It was subconscious, that's how she got charm.

It was subconscious because she can't control it consciously. It's Adas limitation not Shibais ability. We also didn't see Ada get the charm so it's hard to say, but we know for a fact she needed to use Kawakis conscious wish to activate it so it's kinda hard to say it works completely unconsciously

 

[DavidTPPM]

Also yeah if it wasn't obvious I'm also voting Satan.

 

[KaydeeX]

Omnipotence materializes subconscious thoughts. as we already know, emphatic manipulation just happens to be one of them. If shibai is on the verge of death his subconscious desires of wanting to live and evolve, materializes. Shibai doesn’t need to affect the entire goddamn planet like eida did, so that’s irrelevant.

Also, the fear hax is kinda iffy. Naruto has some but no one really gave a thought of it being layered. Here’s a few i can recall;

• Sasuke with his CS1 state made Zaku, Dosu and Kin sram in their pants.
• Zabuza likewisely made Naruto and Sasuke tremble with his bloodlust.
• Kakashi who could fight against Zabuza was visibly frightened by Orochimaru.
• Once again, Orochimaru, Suigetsu and Sasuke are frightened by Tobirama simply raising a finger.
• Sakura who could resist Juubidara’s fear hax was shaking in her boots by Kaguya simply passing by.

So it’s something like Humans<Sasuke<Zabuza~Kakashi<Orochimaru<Tobirama~Madara~Sakura~WA Kakashi<< Kaguya<<<Shibai

Intent reflection doesn’t have a stated Weakness afaik. Amado treats them as different abilities and says “Daemon touching someone” in reference to attack reflection.
I haven’t seen GoH completely yet, so idk Satan moves and it works, but what are His answers to some of these?

 

[DavidTPPM]

Omnipotence materializes subconscious thoughts. as we already know, emphatic manipulation just happens to be one of them. If shibai is on the verge of death his subconscious desires of wanting to live and evolve, materializes.

Except in Adas case it materialized her subconscious thoughts because she couldn't control it not because it's a passive ability of omnipotence. Momoshiki explains in it the very scan you sent.

Shibai doesn’t need to affect the entire goddamn planet like eida did, so that’s irrelevant.

Actually he needs to affect a far wider range given Satans 2 quintillion clones spread across inter-planetary ranges.

Also, the fear hax is kinda iffy. Naruto has some but no one really gave a thought of it being layered. Here’s a few i can recall;

• Sasuke with his CS1 state made Zaku, Dosu and Kin sram in their pants.

As far as I remember that's simply because he was so much stronger than them.

• Zabuza likewisely made Naruto and Sasuke tremble with his bloodlust.
• Kakashi who could fight against Zabuza was visibly frightened by Orochimaru.
• Once again, Orochimaru, Suigetsu and Sasuke are frightened by Tobirama simply raising a finger.

That's heavily up for interpretation and could easily be seen simply as a result of Tobirama literally flexing his power and breaking the surrounding area apart.

• Sakura who could resist Juubidara’s fear hax was shaking in her boots by Kaguya simply passing by.

Sakura didn't resist his fear hax she literally forgot to breath out of fear. And based on what Kakashi said it doesn't seem like Sakura was being affected by some hax from Kaguya but rather just avoided moving carelessly. Especially given she knows Madara could kill her at any point and Kaguya is clearly far more powerful, so even any fear here wouldn't be fear manipulation but just yk, being afraid of getting one tapped.

So it’s something like Humans<Sasuke<Zabuza~Kakashi<Orochimaru<Tobirama~Madara~Sakura~WA Kakashi<< Kaguya<<<Shibai

The only kinda viable argument here is Shibai ≈ Orochimaru > Kakashis resistance > Zabuza which is 1 layer and even that would need to be accepted either in a thread or in the HLET.

Intent reflection doesn’t have a stated Weakness afaik. Amado treats them as different abilities and says “Daemon touching someone” in reference to attack reflection.
I haven’t seen GoH completely yet, so idk Satan moves and it works, but what are His answers to some of these?

The issue with intent reflection is that unlike attack reflection, simply reflecting intent doesn't neutralize the attack.

So even if Satan didn't win via passives he could just punch Shibais head off and then regenerate or resurrect. Or even better, one of his quintillions of clones could suicide bomb Shibai instead. Or he just copies omnipotence and makes himself immune to attack reflection

 

[KaydeeX]

Except in Adas case it materialized her subconscious thoughts because she couldn't control it not because it's a passive ability of omnipotence. Momoshiki explains in it the very scan you sent.

“because she can’t control it” isn’t a drawback for Shibai. If at anything, it’s an advantage to Shibai. Momoshiki simply explains why Eida can’t actively use it, nowhere does he say it can’t work for the ōtsutsukis subconsciously. A simple Inference on what’s been shown and how it’s being shown can be applied to Shibai.

Actually he needs to affect a far wider range given Satans 2 quintillion clones spread across inter-planetary ranges

It’s SBA, they start a few kilometers away, Satan is already within range.

As far as I remember that's simply because he was so much stronger than them.

no that was a death stare.

That's heavily up for interpretation and could easily be seen simply as a result of Tobirama literally flexing his power and breaking the surrounding area apart.

Kage level tiers won’t be scared of someone cracking a damn wall. It was clearly aura.

Sakura didn't resist his fear hax she literally forgot to breath out of fear. And based on what Kakashi said it doesn't seem like Sakura was being affected by some hax from Kaguya but rather just avoided moving carelessly. Especially given she knows Madara could kill her at any point and Kaguya is clearly far more powerful, so even any fear here wouldn't be fear manipulation but just yk, being afraid of getting one tapped.

That’s was one-eyed Juubidara. Sakura Supernatural will evolved to the point she could delulu herself into facing 2-eyed Juubidara without trembling, and yet, was still scared of Kaguya.

The only kinda viable argument here is Shibai ≈ Orochimaru > Kakashis resistance > Zabuza which is 1 layer and even that would need to be accepted either in a thread or in the HLET.

you do you

The issue with intent reflection is that unlike attack reflection, simply reflecting intent doesn't neutralize the attack.

by simply thinking before acting you get the end result of the attack.
for example, Satan can think of incapacitating Shibai with a punch, but won’t be able to pull off the actual attack cuz he’d be thrown off balance by meeting the end results of his thoughts.
as shown here here and here

 

[DavidTPPM]

“because she can’t control it” isn’t a drawback for Shibai. If at anything, it’s an advantage to Shibai. Momoshiki simply explains why Eida can’t actively use it, nowhere does he say it can’t work for the ōtsutsukis subconsciously. A simple Inference on what’s been shown and how it’s being shown can be applied to Shibai.

Momoshiki explains the reason for her charm is that it subconsciously activated without her wanting it to. Charm is literally a negative for Ada and her entire character is built around her wanting to get rid of it.

Meaning it materializing subconscious desires is a negative aspect of an uncontrolled omnipotence. Shibai wouldn't have this "issue" as he's an Otsutsuki.

It’s SBA, they start a few kilometers away, Satan is already within range.

Yeah except like I said, Satan can cover the entire solar system in the blink of an eye.

no that was a death stare.

Do you have any scans for it? Because I don't remember anything like that.

Kage level tiers won’t be scared of someone cracking a damn wall. It was clearly aura.

I'm not saying they're scared of the wall level destruction but his hostility towards them.

If prime Mike Tyson angrily shattered a glass cup on the ground breaking it apart you'd be scared of him as well. Not because of some supernatural hax or because you're cup level, but because someone who can one shot you is displaying hostility towards you.

That’s was one-eyed Juubidara. Sakura Supernatural will evolved to the point she could delulu herself into facing 2-eyed Juubidara without trembling,

Yeah so she didn't resist the fear manip but overcame it through willpower.

and yet, was still scared of Kaguya.

Yeah. Yk why? Because Sakura just got neg diffed by Juubidara and Kaguya just dogwalked 2 mfers relative to juubidara with 0 difficulty. That's like being afraid of a real bear anders saying the bear has layered fear hax.

you do you

That's not really a "you do you" situation tho is it. It's kinda important to the discussion

by simply thinking before acting you get the end result of the attack.

Yeah good thing Satans offensive strats are to either read Shibais mind to find out about the ability or random kicking meaning either way he starts he wouldn't be imagining the end result of his actions.

for example, Satan can think of incapacitating Shibai with a punch, but won’t be able to pull off the actual attack cuz he’d be thrown off balance by meeting the end results of his thoughts.

If Satan gets thrown off balance he would accidentally nuke Shibai because there's a 728,765,477,000x difference in AP between them.
And again even if Satan randomly decides to imagine punching Shibais head off he'll just regenerate back up while Shibai gets nuked.

as shown here here and here

Yeah and we see Code attack Daemon many times and his movements still happen. If Satan does that he might blow himself up (assuming he decides to imagine Shibai dying for some reason) but the attack will still completely obliterate Shibai. The only difference being Satan has resurrection and regeneration while Shibai doesn't.

 

[Iabihs]

Neutral so far, I'll drop my opinion a bit later

 

[KaydeeX]

Momoshiki explains the reason for her charm is that it subconsciously activated without her wanting it to.

Yeah, and there is no saying the same can’t apply to Shibai while he wants it to

Meaning it materializing subconscious desires is a negative aspect of an uncontrolled omnipotence.

sure, nothing says otherwise for a controlled omnipotence that has all its properties.

Yeah except like I said, Satan can cover the entire solar system in the blink of an eye.

Is that a starting move for satan idk?
they are both in character here

I'm not saying they're scared of the wall level destruction but his hostility towards them.

If prime Mike Tyson angrily shattered a glass cup on the ground breaking it apart you'd be scared of him as well. Not because of some supernatural hax or because you're cup level, but because someone who can one shot you is displaying hostility towards you.

No, they are scared of his fear inducing aura. Suigetsu literally references his aura.

Yeah so she didn't resist the fear manip but overcame it through willpower.

doesn’t matter because said “willpower” resistance would be used for layering Kaguya above Madara.

Because Sakura just got neg diffed by Juubidara and Kaguya just dogwalked 2 mfers relative to juubidara with 0 difficulty. That's like being afraid of a real bear anders saying the bear has layered fear hax.

i can easily infer Juubidara negging all previous Kage in front of Sakura, yet she still wasn’t afraid of approaching him. and stop with the reference omg

Yeah good thing Satans offensive strats are to either read Shibais mind to find out about the ability or random kicking meaning either way he starts he wouldn't be imagining the end result of his actions.

Shibai starting move is passive. It’d kick in before Satan can actively “think”

Yeah and we see Code attack Daemon many times and his movements still happen.

This actually proves my point. His hands were in the air for god knows what, but the moment he thought of an attack, it got reflected at him, making the said attack not going through.
Also Shibai can use prescience instantaneously like Koji did against Isshiki, so if Satan decides to nuke the area, he can simply move to another dimension while still having Satan instinct reflected at him.

 

[azontr]

Idk why yall are arguing like Satan needs an intent to attack to beat Shibai when all he has to do is twitch wrong and inadvertently vaporize him and everything around him.

 

[DavidTPPM]

Yeah, and there is no saying the same can’t apply to Shibai. It’s that simple,

Brother the literal manga panel you sent is saying it materialized Adas subconscious desire because she can't control omnipotence as a NEGATIVE SIDE EFFECT.

You're saying Shibai will have the negative side effect caused by a lack of control over omnipotence despite having control over omnipotence while nothing in the manga implies so.

sure, nothing says otherwise for a controlled omnipotence that has all its properties.

And nothing says the negative side effect of Adas lack of control is somehow present in Shibais complete omnipotence.

Is that a starting move for satan idk?
they are both in character here

Yeah kinda. At least unless he's fighting someone like Mujin who can hard counter them.

No, they are scared of his fear inducing aura. Suigetsu literally references his aura.

Orochimaru is literally not even scared but alert and preparing to restrict Tobirama with a handsign due to Tobirama basically saying he'll kill Sasuke.

doesn’t matter because said “willpower” resistance would be used for layering Kaguya above Madara.

No it wouldn't. Willpower is specifically listed as a weakness of fear manipulation and is more so correlated with quality rather than potency.

i can easily infer Juubidara negging all previous Kage in front of Sakura, yet she still wasn’t afraid of approaching him.

Yeah which resulted in Sakura being so terrified of him she forgot to breath lmao. Which explains why she only engaged him with a temporal immortality jutsu like the byakugou.

and stop with the reference omg

?

Shibai starting move is passive. It’d kick in before Satan can actively “think”

Shibai has no canon starting moves and no offensive passives…

This actually proves my point. His hands were in the air for god knows what, but the moment he thought of an attack, it got reflected at him, making the said attack not going through.

Huh? His hand was literally by his side not in the air...

Also Shibai can use prescience instantaneously like Koji did against Isshiki, so if Satan decides to nuke the area, he can simply move to another dimension while still having Satan instinct reflected at him.

Assuming he'd be smart and fast enough to open a wholeass portal before than Satan can move a finger in his general direction, what does Shibai do then?
Satan fills the main dimension with nearly infinite amount of clones and the moment Shibai thinks of coming back he gets nuked by quintillions of 4-A characters. If he doesn't come back he loses due to self-BFR.

 

[KaydeeX]

Brother the literal manga panel you sent is saying it materialized Adas subconscious desire because she can't control omnipotence as a NEGATIVE SIDE EFFECT.

You're saying Shibai will have the negative side effect caused by a lack of control over omnipotence despite having control over omnipotence while nothing in the manga implies so.
And nothing says the negative side effect of Adas lack of control is somehow present in Shibais complete omnipotence.

Nowhere literally does it say it’s a negative side effect.
her desires are simply just being materialized by omnipotence. which is an ability that can be applicable to a controlled omnipotence, as nothing hinders this inference.

Orochimaru is literally not even scared but alert and preparing to restrict Tobirama with a handsign due to Tobirama basically saying he'll kill Sasuke.

He broke a sweat. Sasuke was also frightened, same sasuke who could resist Orochimaru aura.

No it wouldn't. Willpower is specifically listed as a weakness of fear manipulation and is more so correlated with quality rather than potency.

It’s a limitation not a weakness. It’s how it can be overcome in some instances.
Once again, what she used to “overcome” madara hax is rendered useless by Kaguya. That already denotes some type of superior potency.

Yeah which resulted in Sakura being so terrified of him she forgot to breath lmao

I don’t see how this refutes my point.

Shibai has no canon starting moves and no offensive passives…

Any passive ability is a starting move

Assuming he'd be smart and fast enough

he’s an EG

Satan fills the main dimension with nearly infinite amount of clones and the moment Shibai thinks of coming back he gets nuked by quintillions of 4-A characters. If he doesn't come back he loses due to self-BFR.

Good, Shibai being away will give him enough time to prep and know all possible satan moves and weaknesses. Any intent harbored by any of those clones would be rendered useless. they’d end up nuking themselves infinitely and any who comes close enough would be affected by omnipotence.

Voting incon

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

Lol Shibai hardly exist in his own manga outside of shaded black and white images. To argue he’d do this and that in character is crazy when there is no character as of yet.

Satan wins since he’s VASTLY stronger and has the hax to kill Shibai and arguably copy Shibai’s entire arsenal. This may even be a passive win too due to the layered fear hax.

 

[Samlex1234]

Voting Shibai

 

[DavidTPPM]

Nowhere literally does it say it’s a negative side effect.
her desires are simply just being materialized by omnipotence. which is an ability that can be applicable to a controlled omnipotence, as nothing hinders this inference.

"Since it was originally an ability only Otsutsuki could wield, Eida is unable to control Omnipotence, and it manifests by automatically changing her subconscious desires into reality."
It's "subconscious" nature js directly linked to Ada not being able to control it.

He broke a sweat. Sasuke was also frightened, same sasuke who could resist Orochimaru aura.

Orochimaru was sweating because someone who could no diff him is threatening to kill Sasuke? I sure wonder why could that be.

It’s a limitation not a weakness.

Same shit. A limitation is a weakness in this context lol.

It’s how it can be overcome in some instances.
Once again, what she used to “overcome” madara hax is rendered useless by Kaguya. That already denotes some type of superior potency.

No it denotes superior quality. There's a major difference between potency and quality.

You can have 10 layers of fear hax that is only potent enough to make you shiver and you can have fear hax with 0 layers potent enough to make you kill yourself.

Overcoming willpower simply requires a higher quality of fear manipulation, not higher potency as you're not actually overcoming resistance.

I don’t see how this refutes my point.

I'm pointing out that Sakura was actually terrified of Madara because of how strong he was. She even says it's because he "could have killed her at any point".

Which is consistent with her overcoming this fear by tapping into a state of nigh-immortality.

Any passive ability is a starting move

It's not a "move" at all when it's passive…

he’s an EG

Not in combat. His EG comes from gaining an insane amount of knowledge which doesn't necessarily mean he'll be smart enough to perfectly predict what's going to happen.

Good, Shibai being away will give him enough time to prep and know all possible satan moves and weaknesses.

Uhhh Satan once got BFRed for "few hours" and jumped from vaguely above 4-C to 3-B in a pitch black cave. Giving Satan any amount of prep time, especially near a sun which he can absorb energy from, is basically suicide.

Any intent harbored by any of those clones would be rendered useless.

Except even a single clone as much as sneezing in Shibais general direction completely vaporizes him. And given that reflection doesn't stop the actions from happening Shibai is basically digging himself a grave.

they’d end up nuking themselves infinitely and any who comes close enough would be affected by omnipotence.

This was already addressed before. Worst case scenario Satan is copying otsutsuki physiology and resisting it entirely

And since the topic of NLF was brought up I'd still like to see any evidence Shibais omnipotence can even affect opponents hundreds of billions of times stronger (who grow with each second)