Shedinja ability removal (Also some other stuff but it instantly got shot down so ignore that)

[StrymULTRA]

Absolutely disagree FRA. This CRT is based on argument from incredulity and the whole argument here is "it obviously doesn't do that because I say so" when game mechanics exist. I literally don't see anything else here, really.

As said already from Kukui, we take everything that's not contradicted, and only if we saw ON SCREEN that's contradicted we discard the dex. Not the "I don't believe this because it's blatantly false so we discard it". Ffs Smashor, our standards are far better than this sh*t.

 

[The_Smashor]

Absolutely disagree FRA. This CRT is based on argument from incredulity and the whole argument here is "it obviously doesn't do that because I say so" when game mechanics exist. I literally don't see anything else here, really.

Have you even read my arguments? It's not "it dosn't do that because I say so" it's "it dosn't do that because it demonstratably dosn't do that"

we take everything that's not contradicted, and only if we saw ON SCREEN that's contradicted we discard the dex.

WELL WHAT DO YOU KNOW? IT IS.

 

[The_Smashor]

Alright clearly the current title is not accurate to what the thread is at this point has evolved into and is giving people the wrong idea. I hope nobody minds if I chance the title to what the thread currently is.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Have you even read my arguments? It's not "it dosn't do that because I say so" it's "it dosn't do that because it demonstratably dosn't do that"

Based on what? Your incredulity?

 

[The_Smashor]

Based on what? Your incredulity?

Based on several scenes from the anime that I linked, and you would have saw I linked if you actually read any of the arguments that didn't agree with you.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Ok, so let's analyze every entry about this:

Ruby and Omega Ruby: SHEDINJA’s hard body doesn’t move - not even a twitch. In fact, its body appears to be merely a hollow shell. It is believed that this POKéMON will steal the spirit of anyone peering into its hollow body from its back.

Doesn't seem like something passive here. Just that if you do, Shedinja WILL steal your soul, but not that it always does, that's an assumption.

Every Game from Diamond/Pearl (including BDSP) to X/Y: A discarded bug shell that came to life. Peering into the crack on its back is said to steal one’s spirit.

Literally what already said above, but worded differently. Nothing hints on it being passive.

Really dude. You are the one to prove the positive about Shedinja passively doing that, not the opposite.

 

[The_Smashor]

Just that if you do, Shedinja WILL steal your soul, but not that it always does

"Will". Meaning they WILL do it. Not "Can". "Will".

"Will" means they do it every time, inevitably. In order for it to only happen sometimes, the wording would need to be "Can"

 

[Breakdown]

Wow, someone disagrees with canon Pokémon lore, what else is new?

Bring something better than arguments from incredulity. Stop wasting our time.

 

[StrymULTRA]

"Will". Meaning they WILL do it. Not "Can". "Will".

"Will" means they do it every time, inevitably. In order for it to only happen sometimes, the wording would need to be "Can"

You're the one to prove it'll always do that, not us. We saw that it doesn't apply automatically, but the CANON info exists. So make 2+2 and you get that's not passive. Easy and simple as that.

I'm hella tired of these people who make always convoluted arguments to downgrade Pokémon just because they don't like them having certain feats, this thread is again a proof of this happening lol.

 

[The_Smashor]

Bring something better than arguments from incredulity. Stop wasting our time.

I did.

I showed evidence from the Anime of people looking at Shedinja's back, or at the very least most likely looking at Shedinja's back, and not dying. Maybe if some of y'all read the thread instead of coming to Nintendo's aid like a goddamn Twitter stan I wouldn't be getting the exact same comment every three bloody hours on this thread made by people who haven't been here for a tenth of the time most of the people actually debating on the thread have.

For the love of Arceus, not everyone who tries to nerf Nintendo is doing it because they can't suspend their disbelief, my favorite verse has a character who can turn metal into red liquid and create tangible illusions despite that making zero sense. I can suspend my ******* disbelief.

You aren't contributing to the conversation and you aren't being helpful. If you have nothing to add to the conversation, then be quiet and let the adults talk.

 

[The_Smashor]

You're the one to prove it'll always do that, not us. We saw that it doesn't apply automatically, but the CANON info exists. So make 2+2 and you get that's not passive. Easy and simple as that.

I did prove it. "Will" means it will always happen when you look at Shedinja's back. That's how words work.

I'm hella tired of these people who make always convoluted arguments to downgrade Pokémon just because they don't like them having certain feats, this thread is again a proof of this happening lol.

For the love of all things holy, WE HAVE BEEN THERE, DONE THAT, AND IT'S ALREADY BEEN EXPLAINED TO ME WHERE THE MOUNTAIN LEVEL COMES FROM NOW. I MADE AN HONEST GODDAMN MISTAKE AND NOW PEOPLE THINK THAT'S THE ONLY POINT OF THE THREAD. THIS SHIT IS WHY I CHANGED THE TITLE. I'M NOT DOWNGRADING SHIT, I'M TRYING TO REMOVE A SINGLE ABILITY FOR A SINGLE CHARACTER.

How about you stop making convoluted arguments to try and demonize me just because I tried to do anything negative at all to a precious Nintendo verse?

 

[StrymULTRA]

I did prove it. "Will" means it will always happen when you look at Shedinja's back. That's how words work.

Good joke bro. Can you teach me how to make jokes as good as yours?

 

[Starter_Pack]

Mm-hmm. Had to check the page for this one.

Denying the antecedent, and now Appeal to motive.

You are assuming people aren't reading the thread, when we clearly have and have told you multiple times that we believe your perception is incorrect.

 

[The_Smashor]

Good joke bro. Can you teach me how to make jokes as good as yours?

1 —used to express futurity
"tomorrow morning I will wake up in this first-class hotel suite"

6 —used to express inevitability
"accidents will happen"

Oh, no joke I can make can compare to this comedy gold.

 

[The_Smashor]

Mm-hmm. Had to check the page for this one.

Denying the antecedent, and now Appeal to motive.

And, assuming you're referring to me because this thread seems to be devolving into the "Let's all demonize The Smashor when he's just expressing that some things are a little bit iffy in Pokémon while also admittedly being a wee bit of an asshole in response to repetitive comments that add nothing to the conversation" show, what exactly did I do that falls under these fallacies?

 

[StrymULTRA]

1 —used to express futurity
"tomorrow morning I will wake up in this first-class hotel suite"

6 —used to express inevitability
"accidents will happen"

Oh, no joke I can make can compare to this comedy gold.

You just used two on six uses, will doesn't means always that it'll inevitably happen lmao.

 

[The_Smashor]

You just used two on six uses, will doesn't means always that it'll inevitably happen lmao.

Except, just looking how the others are used in discussion, they don't really help your point either.

It is believed that this POKéMON will steal the spirit of anyone peering into its hollow body from its back.

The second definition is to express a willingness. This means that a Shedinja is more than willing to do it.

The third definition is to express as a command, meaning Shedinja is effectively commanded to do it. The more or less dosn't work for this context.

The fourth definition is used to show a habitual action, which for us is similar to the second definition.

The fifth definition is to express probability, typically a very high probability. See definition two.

The seventh is supposed to express capacity, as in how much something can hold. Obviously, this dosn't work here.

Every applicable definition is at the very least leaning the way of it being either passive or something that Shedinja will always use.

 

[Starter_Pack]

First up, denying the antecedent.

I showed evidence from the Anime of people looking at Shedinja's back, or at the very least most likely looking at Shedinja's back, and not dying.

There is a premise and it's natural conclusion (peering into the crack on Shedinja's back will cause it to such your soul out). You say that since people appear to be able to look into his crack and not immediately have their souls sucked out, that means it's outright false. You don't consider that there may be alternative explanations for stuff like this, as many other people have pointed out here, and which you have shined on in favor of your own agenda.

Second, appeal to motive.

Maybe if some of y'all read the thread instead of coming to Nintendo's aid like a goddamn Twitter stan I wouldn't be getting the exact same comment every three bloody hours on this thread made by people who haven't been here for a tenth of the time most of the people actually debating on the thread have.

For the love of Arceus, not everyone who tries to nerf Nintendo is doing it because they can't suspend their disbelief, my favorite verse has a character who can turn metal into red liquid and create tangible illusions despite that making zero sense. I can suspend my ******* disbelief.

You aren't contributing to the conversation and you aren't being helpful. If you have nothing to add to the conversation, then be quiet and let the adults talk.

Throwing the opinions of everyone around you under the bus because you don't believe they read your arguments and are just, and I quote, "coming to Nintendo's aid like a goddamn Twitter stan." When in reality, many of the people here have read your arguments and have major issues with them on several levels, and so are denying your claims.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

I did prove it. "Will" means it will always happen when you look at Shedinja's back. That's how words work.

For the love of all things holy, WE HAVE BEEN THERE, DONE THAT, AND IT'S ALREADY BEEN EXPLAINED TO ME WHERE THE MOUNTAIN LEVEL COMES FROM NOW. I MADE AN HONEST GODDAMN MISTAKE AND NOW PEOPLE THINK THAT'S THE ONLY POINT OF THE THREAD. THIS SHIT IS WHY I CHANGED THE TITLE. I'M NOT DOWNGRADING SHIT, I'M TRYING TO REMOVE A SINGLE ABILITY FOR A SINGLE CHARACTER.

How about you stop making convoluted arguments to try and demonize me just because I tried to do anything negative at all to a precious Nintendo verse?

People have already given you reasonable explanations, and even a compromise solution that also make sense. Your proofs quite simply aren't convincing enough, because we have other reasons to believe otherwise (starting with the fact that no way in hell is the anime showing someone getting their soul sucked out anytime shedinja is on-screen, you'd have better luck in the manga), and have given said reasons. Despite this, you still insist that your position is the correct one. What did you expect that would happen?

 

[The_Smashor]

There is a premise and it's natural conclusion (peering into the crack on Shedinja's back will cause it to such your soul out). You say that since people appear to be able to look into his crack and not immediately have their souls sucked out, that means it's outright false. You don't consider that there may be alternative explanations for stuff like this, as many other people have pointed out here, and which you have shined on in favor of your own agenda.

And I've been explaining why these other interpretations are unlikely based on the Pokedex entry. Since when was arguing a fallacy in versus debating?

Throwing the opinions of everyone around you under the bus because you don't believe they read your arguments and are just, and I quote, "coming to Nintendo's aid like a goddamn Twitter stan." When in reality, many of the people here have read your arguments and have major issues with them on several levels.

I wasn't referring to everyone here. I was only referring to the commenter I was responding to. Though I don't appreciate the tone everyone has had here (Though given what I've said that's a bit hypocritical), I can at least appreciate the people who argue with me instead of just saying I'm wasting everyone's time even though, given their 18 comments ever, I seriously doubt they have ever been on a Pokemon CRT before this one to know that this is a repeat of other CRTs, which to my knowledge it is not.

 

[The_Smashor]

People have already given you reasonable explanations, and even a compromise solution that also make sense.

I've explained why these explanations aren't so reasonable. As for the compromise, making it just "Possibly" changes literally nothing. I'm not here to make it "Possibly", I'm here to outright remove it.

(starting with the fact that no way in hell is the anime showing someone getting their soul sucked out anytime shedinja is on-screen

Did we watch the same anime? Because Ghost Types are pretty consistently ****** up in the Anime. Ash ******* dies on screen due to Ghastly, Haunter and Gengar. Dusknoir literally almost sucked somebody straight into the afterlife. They even included the whole "Litwick burning souls" thing, and Team Rocket almost ******* died to that. I could absolutely see an arc where someone's soul gets sucked out and then because kids show their soul gets put back by the end of the episode and everyone becomes friends with the Shedinja.

Shedinja has only appeared 6 times in the anime, they could absolutely make it's back thing consistent if they wanted to.

Edit: It's worth noting that Shedinja does appear in the Manga, and at no point does it succ any souls nor is it's capacity to do so mentioned.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

I've explained why these explanations aren't so reasonable. As for the compromise, making it just "Possibly" changes literally nothing. I'm not here to make it "Possibly", I'm here to outright remove it.

And people disagree with you. That easy. Yours isn't the only possible interpretation.

 

[The_Smashor]

And people disagree with you. That easy. Yours isn't the only possible interpretation.

I'm aware mine isn't the only possible interpretation. That's why I'm trying to debunk all other possible interpretations as they're presented to me instead of just parroting my interpretation without saying anything else.

 

[Starter_Pack]

Despite the fact that what Breakdown said was extremely rude, you were equally rude back to him. There is no call for any kind of demeaning statements for whatever reason. I do not tolerate hostility and name calling like this under any circumstance. Consider the two of you officially warned in this regard, which I will make known in the RVT.

Also, have you considered that the word "peer" that is used in both Pokédex entries may be referring to people trying to get up close and staring into the void instead of just accidentally glancing over in Shedinja's direction? This would explain why Shedinja doesn't suck the souls out of everything who even remotely glances its way, while simultaneously ensuring the "will" aspect of the sentence remains true, since that seems to be a pillar in your argument now.

 

[The_Smashor]

Also, have you considered that the word "peer" that is used in both Pokédex entries may be referring to people trying to get up close and staring into the void instead of just accidentally glancing over in Shedinja's direction? This would explain why Shedinja doesn't suck the souls out of everything who even remotely glances its way, while simultaneously ensuring the "will" aspect of the sentence remains true, since that seems to be a pillar in your argument now.

Alright, yeah, I don't think I have an argument for that looking at peer's definition, since it basically means to look closely. Alrighty then. It's probably still reasonable to change it to "Possibly" since it is a rumor in-universe, but yeah. Good talk. Good thread. Slightly dreadful for all involved but at least it's over.

Also, next time this sort of thing happens, can someone remind me not to do this at 3AM? Because I am noticing a correlation with how tired I am and how much of an asshole I am. In fact, I think I'm gonna write that in my signature just in case.

 

[Arceus0x]

Gonna reply. I'mma translate this real quick from the japanese text

 

[Arceus0x]

yeah it is the soul that gets absorbed
魂 means soul and very rarely spirit.

So yeah i feel like it isn't passive or you need to stare into the hole instead of glancing at it.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

The way it says that Shedinja will steal someone's soul if they look into its body make it seem like the act is consciously done by Shedinja, as it decides to steal someone's soul rather than doing that passively

 

[Lou_change]

Guys the best evidence we have is that some people think it can steal souls nothing else supports it you guys have had to jump through hoops to argue for it. You guys are ignoring occam's razor.

 

[GyroNutz]

Guys the best evidence we have is that some people think it can steal souls nothing else supports it you guys have had to jump through hoops to argue for it. You guys are ignoring occam's razor.

Rumour or not, it's noteable enough to have made its way into the Pokedex, which has been proven right on "rumours" on numerous occasions before.

 

[Starter_Pack]

I understand the reservations, but I very much agree with the majority of folks here. The Pokédex is our primary source of canon, and as long as it does not directly conflict with feats shown within the Pokémon line of media, then it should be fine.

If you have problems with the Shedinja thing, it could be rephrased as:


It can be listed as a "possible" feat instead of a "definite" feat. Would this work for you?

So, referring back to my initial post on the subject, would everyone be fine with a rewrite of this particular aspect of Shedinja's profile to imply its soul stealing properties as being a possibility instead of a definitive?

 

[Arceus0x]

ye

 

[LordGriffin1000]

So, referring back to my initial post on the subject, would everyone be fine with a rewrite of this particular aspect of Shedinja's profile to imply its soul stealing properties as being a possibility instead of a definitive?

Yes.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Yeah this seems good

 

[The_Smashor]

Works for me, though it should be noted that it's mostly non-combat applicable as someone has to very deliberately look into the crack up close for it to work.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Works for me, though it should be noted that it's mostly non-combat applicable as someone has to very deliberately look into the crack up close for it to work.

That seems reasonable

 

[Lou_change]

Rumour or not, it's noteable enough to have made its way into the Pokedex, which has been proven right on "rumours" on numerous occasions before.

Such as?

 

[Arceus0x]

Such as?

read up

 

[Lou_change]

What does that even mean?

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

What does that even mean?

That there are already examples in the thread. Read.