Shedinja ability removal (Also some other stuff but it instantly got shot down so ignore that)

[The_Smashor]

No, this is not something to claim that the Pokedex is unusable as a whole or that it was written by ten year olds. I just think we should stop considering Pokedex entries that are demonstrably false.

The Pokedex is, in a nutshell, a collection statements. And on this website, we generally only consider statements when they're somehow backed up by actions in the story.

Kadabra very obviously dosn't passively cause headaches for those around itself, because literally nobody who ever is around a Kadabra complains about Headaches. Shedinja very obviously dosn't absorb souls through it's back, because literally every trainer who ever owned a Shedinja looks into it's back and is totally fine.

Why is it that these statements get to be included on profiles despite being so obviously not true? And what of statements that go completely unsupported in canon despite not being outright debunked? Why is it that these statements get special treatment compared to other statements on this website? Hell, one of our main calcs for Pokémon is Puputar supposedly being able to topple a mountain, even though literally nothing outside of the Pokedex even remotely implies it can do that.

I understand it more for Legendary Pokemon since there's usually only one of them and they aren't generally active, but most Pokémon are wild animals. With all these mountain destruction statements, there shouldn't be a single mountain left in the entire Pokemon world. And yet there's still plenty.

The Pokedex is still fine to use on a case-by-case basis, but I feel like we're being far too generous with the cases where we use it.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

The Pokémon ratings are not based on the mountain statement anymore. The High 7-A+ ratings for Final Stage Evolutions are based on feats, and so does the High 7-C for Mid-Stage Evolutions, and 8-A for First Stage Evolutions

 

[The_Smashor]

The Pokémon ratings are not based on the mountain statement anymore. The High 7-A+ ratings for Final Stage Evolutions are based on feats, and so does the High 7-C for Mid-Stage Evolutions, and 8-A for First Stage Evolutions

Then we should probably remove that statement from Tyranatar's profile.

 

[Everything12]

This is wrong, sure we like feats more then statements, and statements that are directly disproved by feats or something like a character with only 9-B feats having one out there 3-A statement are ignored, but otherwise we are completely fine with any statements that are part of canon and aren't gained from pestering creators on Twitter or whatever.

 

[Lou_change]

Kadabra very obviously dosn't passively cause headaches for those around itself, because literally nobody who ever is around a Kadabra complains about Headaches. Shedinja very obviously dosn't absorb souls through it's back, because literally every trainer who ever owned a Shedinja looks into it's back and is totally fine.

Shedinja that is effective a myth always describing it as a rumor. The alpha waves Kadabra's dex mentions seem to be released by mainly when using it's powers so that works still.

 

[The_Axiom_of_Virgo]

With all these mountain destruction statements, there shouldn't be a single mountain left in the entire Pokemon world. And yet there's still plenty.

I honestly expected better than resorting to argument from incredulity and AoE fallacy from you @The_Smashor consider me disappointed...

Slightly facetious comment aside, like @Gilad_Hyperstar already mentioned above the stat trinity scaling comes from feats that are from canon material (Games, Anime and Manga) with Pokédex entires being used as supporting evidence also at the risk of sounding cliche it's FICTION. PokéHumans have already shown to be far above any IRL humans, applying any form of logic (within reason) to a verse where 10yrs old can capture and send out tier 10-B to 2-A monsters is kinda a foolish endeavour imo.

I get the reservations of the Pokédex being unreliable I truly do but it's still a primary canon source of statements, to dismiss it (even chucks of it) would only cause more inconsistencies plus any franchise that's as big and as old as Pokémon is bound to have more than just a few inconsistencies that's just how it goes.

Tl;dr: I suspect this CRT is more of a suspension of belief than anything.

 

[The_Smashor]

With all these mountain destruction statements, there shouldn't be a single mountain left in the entire Pokemon world. And yet there's still plenty.

I honestly expected better than resorting to argument from incredulity and AoE fallacy from you @The_Smashor consider me disappointed...

1. That wasn't AOE fallacy, I was basing that off of statements in the Pokedex where some Pokémon are noted to destroy mountains, statements that are notably still present on our Tyranatar profile.
2. This CRT isn't even mainly about that. It's about Pokedex entries that are blatantly false, like Shedinja's.

Also, I LITERALLY SAID I WASN'T TRYING TO DISPROVE THE POKEDEX AS A WHOLE.

This isn't a suspension of belief, this is the fact that we have an ability that even the Pokedex itself calls a rumor on our actual Shedinja profile.

Soul Manipulation: Anyone who stares at the hole in its back will have its Spirit taken away. Attacks like Phantom Force, Shadow Sneak and Shadow Ball can also harm soul-based creatures, like Ghost Type Pokémon.

I'd appreciate if you'd avoid straw manning me like that in the future.

 

[Lou_change]

Shedinja should have that ability but the pokedex doesn't lie it's pokedex entries about soul stealing such as
Shedinja's hard body doesn't move - not even a twitch. In fact, its body appears to be merely a hollow shell. It is believed that this Pokémon will steal the spirit of anyone peering into its hollow body from its back.

A discarded bug shell that came to life. Peering into the crack on its back is said to steal one's spirit.

All those dex entries include said or believed feel free to check the others.

 

[The_Smashor]

Shedinja should have that ability but the pokedex doesn't lie it's pokedex entries about soul stealing such as
Shedinja's hard body doesn't move - not even a twitch. In fact, its body appears to be merely a hollow shell. It is believed that this Pokémon will steal the spirit of anyone peering into its hollow body from its back.

A discarded bug shell that came to life. Peering into the crack on its back is said to steal one's spirit.

All those dex entries include said or believed feel free to check the others.

And that rumor is considered fact on our profile.

 

[Starter_Pack]

I understand the reservations, but I very much agree with the majority of folks here. The Pokédex is our primary source of canon, and as long as it does not directly conflict with feats shown within the Pokémon line of media, then it should be fine.

If you have problems with the Shedinja thing, it could be rephrased as:

It is stated that anyone who stares at the hole in its back will have their spirit taken away, though it is unclear whether or not this is true.

It can be listed as a "possible" feat instead of a "definite" feat. Would this work for you?

 

[Lou_change]

Yeah the profile is wrong but the pokedex isn't just like black cats aren't bad luck but are said to be.

 

[Starter_Pack]

It is believed to be. It is said to be. None of this is definite.

I can see where Smashor is coming from, and hence why I proposed this compromise.

 

[The_Smashor]

It can be listed as a "possible" feat instead of a "definite" feat. Would this work for you?

It's blatantly, demonstratably false, and shouldn't be included.

This is like if we gave IRL black cats probability manipulation.

 

[Starter_Pack]

While there is no definite proof of the feat happening, it is also a very real, very possible thing that Shedinja could have.

There is absolutely nothing that shows this defies canon. Give me a solid, definitive reason why this is not the case, and it may be considered.

 

[Lou_change]

It's not said to be automatic but a lot of evidence goes against the idea.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

We’ve already had this thread numerous numerous times in the past already and they all end with the same result (and I’m also fairly certain we have a discussion rule for this too)

the Pokédex is 110% a completely valid source to use, we use what isn’t contradicted. We disregard what is contradicted. This is very very simple.

 

[Starter_Pack]

Comparing Shedinja to IRL black cats is like comparing apples to oranges.

We know black cats being bad luck is purely superstition from a historical standpoint. We do not have the same confidence with Shedinja, who is one of nearly a thousand species of monsters that are being constantly studied by researchers within the universe.

We canonically don't know everything about Pokémon, including Shedinja, hence why we cannot simply discard rumors about them as purely fiction.

 

[The_Smashor]

While there is no definite proof of the feat happening, it is also a very real, very possible thing that Shedinja could have.

There is absolutely nothing that shows this defies canon. Give me a solid, definitive reason why this is not the case, and it may be considered.

The fact that literally every Shedinja trainer directly looks at Shedinja's back. The Pokedex dosn't say this is something Shedinja chooses to do, it says it just happens. It's not a manually activated ability, it's passive.

 

[Smashtwig]

lmao i was just saying that an Illumination feat was possible in a GV Server and now it devolved to this bruh

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

The fact that literally every Shedinja trainer directly looks at Shedinja's back. The Pokedex dosn't say this is something Shedinja chooses to do, it says it just happens. It's not a manually activated ability, it's passive.

That’s not how passive works.

Also, where are you getting “every trainer looks at a Shedninjas back from” ? There’s absolutely nothing that says this happens, let alone always happens.

 

[The_Smashor]

Also, where are you getting “every trainer looks at a Shedninjas back from” ? There’s absolutely nothing that says this happens, let alone always happens.

When you catch a Shedinja in the games, you look at it's back.

There's a trainer in the anime with a Shedinja, who looks at it's back.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

When you catch a Shedinja in the games, you look at it's back.

Uh, what?

There's a trainer in the anime with a Shedinja, who looks at it's back.

If it’s who you I think your referring to, that isn’t proven. Just because he’s looking in the same direction as Shedninja doesn’t mean he’s looking at its back. He doesn’t need to directly look at its back to command Shedninja. No trainer does with their Pokémon

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

When you catch a Shedinja in the games, you look at it's back.

Well I only ever look at its moveset ovo

 

[Hasty12345]

Doesn’t Lanturn have a Pokédex entry that calcs at 3-A?
I more than understand where the OP is coming from, but if the end goal is for “case by case”, I’m pretty sure that’s already how it’s handled. So I don’t see a reason for this thread to stay open tbh, if the OP has any specific issues, he/she should take them to another thread with a proper analysis on whether or not the specific entry is valid or not.

 

[The_Smashor]

Uh, what?

The battle animation, Kukui. The trainer and Shedinja's sprites face the same direction, and even in modern 3D games we see them looking at Shedinja.

And it would be genuinely asinine to assume literally every trainer using Shedinja we ever see has never looked at it's back.

 

[GyroNutz]

Doesn’t Lanturn have a Pokédex entry that calcs at 3-A?

Through insane wank, it was also calced at like 8-C iirc.

 

[Starter_Pack]

Okay.

A) There are not a lot of Trainers that actually own Shedinja in the games.

B) If the Trainers went through the trouble of obtaining a Shedinja, it would be neglectful of them as Trainers to not be both knowledgeable and cautious about their Pokémon, including and especially any rumors that could result in their deaths. It's just common sense.

If there are any Trainers that fail to be cautious in this way, we never see them, as evidenced by the fact that no one dies the moment they send out their Shedinja.

 

[StekFence]

It's blatantly, demonstratably false, and shouldn't be included.

This is like if we gave IRL black cats probability manipulation.

In fairness, cats don’t have super powers

 

[The_Smashor]

B) If the Trainers went through the trouble of obtaining a Shedinja, it would be neglectful of them as Trainers to not be both knowledgeable and cautious about their Pokémon, including and especially any rumors that could result in their deaths. It's just common sense.

It dosn't say that you need to look at the back for several seconds. If you so much as have an aside glance at the back, then your soul gets succed.

A rumor like that, espesially one so readily accessible, would cause people to become curious, even if it's subconsciously. There's a reason that the whole "Don't hit the big red button" thing is a trope, it's human nature to check things like that regardless of danger.

Assuming that every trainer to ever use a Shedinja is both lucky enough and strong-willed enough to never even glance at Shedinja's back is far too big of an assumption.

 

[The_Smashor]

Here, we can see Shedinja's trainer clearly looking directly at it's back. Not to mention several scenes in the anime where Shedinja are just casually hanging around large crowds of people.

Hell, just watching the whole video I gave shows just how absurd it is to treat this rumor as fact.

 

[Monkey_Dunno]

Like, I agree here. I disagree with the idea of dropping everything there, but even without the Shedinja's case (which sprite is outright giving it's back to it's trainer and can be stared backwards in some games), things like Amok Megas or Banette's lore are quite not accurate with what happens in-game.

 

[FinePoint]

Every shedinja pokedex entry says either "it is believed" or "it is said", and they also say that it steals their "spirit", not their "soul".
Maybe that's a meaningless nitpick, but things such as fighting spirit exist, and would not kill you if removed, and may even regenerate afterwards.

Either way, the pokedex makes it clear that it's only a rumor, so why would we take it as fact even if we trusted the pokedex?

 

[Starter_Pack]

Hence why I'm proposing labeling it as a possibility.

It keeps the fact that it is thought to happen through hearsay, but is not to be relied upon in a versus debate or something.

 

[FinePoint]

Hence why I'm proposing labeling it as a possibility.

It keeps the fact that it is thought to happen through hearsay, but is not to be relied upon in a versus debate or something.

Possibly ratings are used in versus threads unless otherwise stated iirc, due to the assumption that you use the strongest version.

Not important though, I think a possibly rating is reasonable.

 

[The_Smashor]

Hence why I'm proposing labeling it as a possibility.

It keeps the fact that it is thought to happen through hearsay, but is not to be relied upon in a versus debate or something.

We've never seen it and have seen several situations where it would happen but didn't.

There's literally a scene in the anime (See the video I linked) where several people are looking at Shedinja's back.

And it's not like the anime's afraid to give Ghost Types their spookier Pokedex entries (See the Chandelure line and Dusknoir)

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Okay so a friend of mine wanted to contribute to this thread when seeing it and asked me to post this.

Response:


We need to dispel this bigger idea that the Pokédex is just meaningless fluff first since the OP seems to insist they are such in regard to the Pupitar statement. Firstly, trainers do not write entries despite popular belief. Every single gen since Red and Blue consistently explains it's an encyclopedia that automatically shows the entries when a Pokémon is seen. Sending all of this since the OP was insisting this wasn't the case off-site btw.





https://youtu.be/qEms9_nJ7M0?t=491
https://youtu.be/g2Jbhj6MhMk?t=1692
https://youtu.be/b87-LEUzDmI?t=4445

Secondly, we see the Pokédex outright being used in this way. Ignoring the countless times Ash and co. pull out a Pokédex to this effect, we're outright shown they can analyze a Pokémon's capabilities. This is how Paul decides whether or not he would keep his Pokémon based on the information the Pokédex would tell him. It functions similarly in-game too, which is why you get more information by catching a Pokémon over just seeing it.

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/572160928510902287/917974386286395442/unknown.png

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/572160928510902287/917974575353057290/unknown.png

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/572160928510902287/917974644865245295/unknown.png

Thirdly, we see numerous examples of Pokédex statements being legitimate throughout the series. You don't have to look far and wide to pull some examples.

Example 1 Entry: "A Magikarp living for many years can leap a mountain using Splash. The move remains useless, though." - Platinum Magikarp

https://imgur.com/r/pokemon/7m13mVV

Example 2 Entry: "Its actual appearance is unknown. A scholar who saw what was under its rag was overwhelmed by terror and died from the shock." - Sun Mimikyu

Removed Scene - Meowth Floating on Water // Pokémon Sun and Moon Episode 12 [Sub vs Dub]

I'll show what I notice in this moment!© Pokémon

www.youtube.com

Example 3 Entry: "While it can see the future, it has no desire to change it, which is probably why it remains motionless at all times." - Ultra Moon Xatu

Xatu Introduction - Pokemon Mystery Dungeon - Red / Blue Rescue Team

The scene that is shown when you first reach the end of Great Canyon. Xatu is absolutely one of my favourite characters from the first PMD games. Can't wait ...

www.youtube.com

So yes, it is completely consistent throughout the franchise that the Pokédex gets its details from professors, things the program itself can analyze, and that examples are demonstrably true. However, let's address some things posited by the OP: some of this will be paraphrased while others will be quoted.

"There is no other general showings to indicate the things listed in Pokédex."

This is a sense of argument I'm getting from the OP here too. There are actually sources that explain how researchers in the Pokémon world come to their conclusions. Ex shared this in the chat, so I'm just gonna borrow from him here. We get actual images like pictures of researchers measuring Pikachu's voltage output for its Pokédex statements. Other images show similar tests for other Pokémon. In fact, Doctor Lava did a pretty good video about this. I would recommend the watch, but it utterly decimates this foolish, ignorant idea that professors in-universe have no basis in what they say.

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/590376960950009860/917953971136655400/pika.png

Pokemon's LOST Official Pokedex Ft. Nob Ogasawara & Nekkra

We present to you an ENTIRE Lost Pokedex that not only was never brought to the West, but was mostly left out of the video games too.LOST Pokedex Part 2 ► ht...

www.youtube.com

"Kadabra very obviously dosn't passively cause headaches for those around itself, because literally nobody who ever is around a Kadabra complains about Headaches. Shedinja very obviously dosn't absorb souls through it's back, because literally every trainer who ever owned a Shedinja looks into it's back and is totally fine."

I will admit this part is harder to explain because we don't have direct explanations about it, but you could credit this to Pokémon likely restricting their abilities to not induce these effects on others. For example, there was an instance where a Ponyta's flames burnt Ash because it didn't trust him, but he was able to ride on it with flames and all because it decided it didn't want to make the flames hurt him. Does it make sense that Ash would be able to ride a flaming horse even if it trusts him? Not really but that's just the verse's logic.

"It's blatantly, demonstratably false, and shouldn't be included. This is like if we gave IRL black cats probability manipulation."

This is pretty much me addressing the "rumored" and "just superstitions" arguments posed here. Even these entries can be backed up. The Mimikyu one is a good example because some entries phrase it as folktales. Another example would be how Ninetales is rumored to live for 1,000 years. However, we know that's true because Ninetales can live that long in Mystery Dungeon: that's what the Ninetales legend entails. There also obvious statements posed as folklore about legendaries that have shown to be true like Arceus creating the universe.

Ninetales legend - Bulbapedia, the community-driven Pokémon encyclopedia

bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net

I will say that I understand the skepticism on the rumored statements, but there is even some evidence in regard to them too. I would understand if the thread came to a consensus to put "possibly" statements behind things regarded as rumors.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Here, we can see Shedinja's trainer clearly looking directly at it's back. Not to mention several scenes in the anime where Shedinja are just casually hanging around large crowds of people.

Hell, just watching the whole video I gave shows just how absurd it is to treat this rumor as fact.

To comment on this, both points are flawed

the Trainer from the Togepi special wasn’t looking at Shedninjas back, he was already looking in that direction. Shedninja fell in front of him because it got blasted by a flamethrower

And as for the second video, how is this at all evidence? Shedninja is just floating around in the air, they aren’t directly looking at its back.

And even at the end of the day, the option that Shedninjas soul stealing isn’t passive is still on the table.

 

[The_Smashor]

snip

I know all this already. Literally the first thing I say is:

No, this is not something to claim that the Pokedex is unusable as a whole or that it was written by ten year olds.

 

[Luckyfun]

I agree with Starter Pack and Kukui here. The pokedex is sometimes inconsistent, but that doesn't mean it is unreliable in game. The devs put game mechanics first. So the Shedninja entry is only matters in lore. So it doesn't clash with game.

 

[The_Smashor]

And even at the end of the day, the option that Shedninjas soul stealing isn’t passive is still on the table.

It's pretty much described as a passive thing. It's a side effect of looking at it's back. And, once again in reference to this video, with how many people were there, there is no way that nobody looked at Shedinja's back. Hell, since this Shedinja seems to like humans, I seriously doubt it would so recklessly show it's back in a crowd. And at the very end of the video we see Shedinja in front of a screen that everyone is looking at. Are you telling me that, somehow, nobody glanced down at all or even had the back in their field of vision? It's not like humans can only see in a laser beam where their eyes are pointing, we have an extremely wide field of vision, and nothing in the Pokedex implies you need to look directly at it's back, just that you need to look at it.

I agree with Starter Pack and Kukui here. The pokedex is sometimes inconsistent, but that doesn't mean it is unreliable in game. The devs put game mechanics first. So the Shedninja entry is only matters in lore. So it doesn't clash with game.

I am using the anime to bunk that too. Please read the thread.