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Shaman King CRT (Part 1)

ProfessorKukui4Life said:
Hey so I began rereading the manga again in my spare time and I THINK I have something that may suggest 4-D for Hao / The Shaman King / The Great Spirit.

You can read this mini scan thread I posted on Imgur here.

Basically (I think Cyber may have already mentioned this a bit here before but ill explain it in more detail), in Shaman King, souls can form worlds called communes that are formed from their memories of how they lived before death, with their being countless communes (supported by Yoh saying at an earlier point in the series that the Great Spirit has countless souls that are infinitely connected) inside of the Great Spirit.

One can do things such as controlling their own fate (Fate Manipulation for Hao btw?) and even travel through time inside these planes of existence. Now onto why this could be an upgrade, since these communes confirm time travel is possible, it would imply they are timelines (since they are directly based off of the real world too), which could bump Hao and the Great Spirit up quite a bit.
Click to expand...
I don’t entirely agree with some points in your interpretation of this:
The other possibilities here aren’t random events of the many worlds interpretation, but other possible beliefs, which in the GS control the world/commune you can go to.
Saying they can choose their own fate doesn’t seem to be literal fate manipulation, but that they can choose which commune they’ll end up, and how that commune develops, and therefore how their life will go forwards.

The time travel is definitely the big part imo. I could see the scan either meaning that they literally travel through time within the commune or that they can travel to communes set in/emulating different times (such as the Indio commune which is emulating the ancient past, or the commune Hana visits in Flowers that is permanently in WWII). I think this would be good for a possibly 2-B rating (and the countless communes in the GS would make its 3-A rating much higher than baseline)
 
Blahblah9755 said:
I don’t entirely agree with some points in your interpretation of this:
The other possibilities here aren’t random events of the many worlds interpretation, but other possible beliefs, which in the GS control the world/commune you can go to.
Saying they can choose their own fate doesn’t seem to be literal fate manipulation, but that they can choose which commune they’ll end up, and how that commune develops, and therefore how their life will go forwards.
Click to expand...
As far as the MWI aspect of this goes for my comment, I did only say that its a nod from Joco's master, and not something too too explicit in that regard, but since a soul's memory or beliefs can create worlds based off those memories and beliefs inside the GS, it would in some effect be replicating the MWI.

However, the fate manipulation aspect of this I suggested isn't based off which commune one goes to, but because of Joco's master stating that everything inside the Great Spirit is determined by the state of your soul, which really should only just go for Hao (since the Shaman King unites with the GS).
Blahblah9755 said:
The time travel is definitely the big part imo. I could see the scan either meaning that they literally travel through time within the commune or that they can travel to communes set in/emulating different times (such as the Indio commune which is emulating the ancient past, or the commune Hana visits in Flowers that is permanently in WWII). I think this would be good for a possibly 2-B rating (and the countless communes in the GS would make its 3-A rating much higher than baseline)
Click to expand...
Id be good with this honestly.
 
Antvasima said:
Can somebody summarise the current relevant arguments and information into a single post, so I can ask for staff help with evaluating it?
Click to expand...
Okay so the run down is that I may have something better than 3-A for Hao to be rated by instead if it checks out. Here are the details.

In Shaman King, souls can form worlds called communes that are formed from their beliefs and memories of how they lived before death. These said worlds exist inside of the Great Spirit itself, and there are at least countless amounts of these communes inside of the Great Spirit. The number of worlds being vast is supported by Yoh once saying that the Great Spirit has countless souls that are infinitely connected inside of itself.

These communes are also implied to be their own timelines since:

-They're directly based off of the real world
-Time travel is confirmed possible to perform inside of these worlds

You can read this mini scan thread I posted on Imgur here.

If this checks out, this would put 2-B as a possibility for Hao, the Great Spirit and whoever would scale.
 
There’s this thing from Anna where she claims there’s a 137 hells though I’m certain it’s mentioned everyone gets there own afterlife based off memories and soul. Regardless wouldn’t all these hells and afterlife’s exist also within the great spirit

 
RIZEXX said:
There’s this thing from Anna where she claims there’s a 137 hells though I’m certain it’s mentioned everyone gets there own afterlife based off memories and soul. Regardless wouldn’t all these hells and afterlife’s exist also within the great spirit

Click to expand...

Considering the very first commune Jaco found himself inside after dying was a place he thought was hell, id say that strongly implies this also falls under that as well.
 
Cyberblader90 said:
ehhhhh

is there enough proof each commune is low 2-c?
Click to expand...
Well from what the scans themselves gave, here are the details:

-Time travel is possible inside of the communes and one can go anywhere, implying a commune is a timeline

-The communes are directly based off of the real world since they're formed by the beliefs and memories of the soul (the Indio commune and hell Jaco was in being explicit examples of this)

-These communes demonstrate at least cosmic sizes (the hell commune Jaco and his master were in had outer space and stars depicted inside it, and since the communes are based off the real world too, having a cosmic size should safely indicate the commune can become what the real world is, a universe)

-The communes are directly called a plane of existence too.
 
ProfessorKukui4Life said:
Okay so the run down is that I may have something better than 3-A for Hao to be rated by instead if it checks out. Here are the details.

In Shaman King, souls can form worlds called communes that are formed from their beliefs and memories of how they lived before death. These said worlds exist inside of the Great Spirit itself, and there are at least countless amounts of these communes inside of the Great Spirit. The number of worlds being vast is supported by Yoh once saying that the Great Spirit has countless souls that are infinitely connected inside of itself.

These communes are also implied to be their own timelines since:

-They're directly based off of the real world
-Time travel is confirmed possible to perform inside of these worlds

You can read this mini scan thread I posted on Imgur here.

If this checks out, this would put 2-B as a possibility for Hao, the Great Spirit and whoever would scale.
Click to expand...
@Ultima_Reality @Agnaa @Ovy7 @Ionliosite @First_Witch @Elizhaa @KingPin0422

Would you be willing to help evaluate this please?
 
Been a while (a really long while), since I've tackled anything about Shaman King. I don't remember those scans in the original manga, so I guess they are from the sequels (which I haven't read), but what it's in there and what Kukui says seems to make sense IMO, so maybe 2-B could be a possibility.
 
I'm not willing to help evaluate this verse, sorry!
 
Ovy7 said:
Been a while (a really long while), since I've tackled anything about Shaman King. I don't remember those scans in the original manga, so I guess they are from the sequels (which I haven't read), but what it's in there and what Kukui says seems to make sense IMO, so maybe 2-B could be a possibility.
Click to expand...
Yeah SK's manga is continued in sequels and such (thankfully!)
 
Oh yeah, another minor supporting point of the Great Spirits communes replicating the real world (and by real world, I mean the universe and not simply earth of course)

Hao later on explains to Yoh and the others that the Great Spirit doesn't just record the memories of all souls born on Earth, but also records all of history, all knowledge, and even things on a more cosmological scale like planets and beyond.

0259-007.png

0259-008.png


And as I showed already in the prior scans from the Imgur album, communes are canonically explained to be formed by the memories and beliefs of a soul inside the Great Spirit. Joco's hell commune already depicted itself with stars inside of it (already proving it replicates the real world beyond just earth), so along with this point from Hao, communes being universal structures have strong evidence to support them at this point.
 
Well, I am not the best person to evaluate if Hao is greater than Low 2-C or not. Which other staff members have responded to this thread previously?
 
Ok lets do this lol
1. First thing First. The Shaman King verse has already established that the G.S was a higher dimension that can't be normally accessed too. So the conversations for dimensions I agree with(Link for proof, This was when I added this for Hao's immortality type 9.)

2. A couple abilities I'd like to add because it was brought to my attention or I completely forgot.
  • Hao should MOST DEFININATLY get Supernatural Willpower. I don't need a scan for this. This dude LITTERALY TRAINED IN HELL(inside the G.S) for OVER 1000 years.
  • Liveinmeme brought this up so I give him credit for this one, good find bruh lol. Empowerment- At first I thought that the only evidence was because of what Horohoro said to Hao during the final battle. But I CHECKED and there is another piece of evidence.
    • In Vol 9. when the gang was explaining what an O.S is to Jun(ren's sister) Yoh states "Mana is generated by willpower, when it falters, the oversoul becomes less substantial. (scans)
3. AP, Ok well I was gonna try to do this later in a different thread but I guess we doing it here LOL. OK so for starters, I wanted to add a feat that not a lot are talking about. You see the reason why different Shaman Kings can't fight each other is because it was stated many times that if 2 Shaman King did battle, it would essentially be too dangerous for the planet to handle. This was hinted in Shaman King flowers but was stated again in Shaman King: The Super Star(which is a sequals to Flowers). Now I'm pretty sure the rule for a feat like that is that the two characters don't get the total amount of AP generated since it was caused by both characters but I wanna add that feat in there.(scan)
Another feat I would like to add is that Lyserg when he got his new O.S completely destroyed the barrier to the Shaman fight arena. We know that in Vol. 16 that the barrier was so powerful that it could maintain a explosion that was not only stated to be 5 TIMES more powerful than a average grenade but it was also able to CONSUME EVERY MOLECULE of OXYGEN in that ring when it denotated. I don't know how the AP would be measured for that but I'd just like to add that in there cause that seems like an interesting feat.(scan)
My original proposal for Hao was going to be "At Least High 6-A, Likely 4-C to 3-C with Supernova, Possibly 3-A". but with the talk of 2-C or 2-B I realize just how little ik about the AP tiers lol. Also I would like to add something else. For the durability aspect for the profiles, the large star level feat should not be applied for the 5 warriors. NOW IK IK, JUST LET ME EXPLAIN, Now for starters, in the G.S it has been stated that the power of your will can make you do things that NORMALLY you wouldn't be able to do. For this case, healing and durability is pretty tricky considering the will of the soul is what determines whether or not your soul is destroyed. Let me give you guys some examples of what I mean
  • Yoh LITTERALY got his ARMS BURNED TO THE POINT WHERE YOU COULD SEE HIS BONES. But once he realized he was in the G.S where willpower is a big factor, He immediately healed them with his willpower alone.
  • Yoh flat out got shot with an arrow from one of the ogres, and he took the arrow out and then healed himself(same method as the first one).
  • Lyserg got punched to the ground so bad he essentially got squished like a bug and Pasaf told him that since he was in the G.S he could visualize his body and recreate his body, which he did with his will.
  • Now here is the main thing that put's it all together. When Hao was warning them about what happens if they were to lose he states and I quote "If your heart breaks in the commune of the Shaman King... It's over for good, I trust you haven't changed your minds?" And if that isn't enough when everyone got hit by that Supernova, Horohoro says "You didn't think that'd be enough to break our spirits, did you?". Or when Hao used his Black hole technique. Lyserg said "Whatever tricks you got up your sleeves, it won't work against a strong heart!" or Joco's statement "As long as we believe, our wills will stay strong forever!"
Now to add because I know it'll be brought up if I don't add this. This does not apply to oversouls however since we've seen that EVERY SINGLE O.S in the series that performed an ability in the G.S was able to do the SAME EXACT ABILITIES when they were alive. Overall I don' think we should add that. if we allow the durability feat I feel we might as well give them (Low-Godly) Regeneration as well. But that doesn't sound right to me. But I'm curious on what others think about this.

4. I'd also like to add another thing. This was in the CRT but i guess we focused a lot on the abilities that we(including myself) just didn't pay much mind to. But EVERY SHAMAN that DIED and CAME BACK to life after the final battle with Hao should get a "Likely Higher" on their final tiers. The reason for this is because of the Reactive Power Level for furyoku in the Shaman King verse.
Enigmatic_Rurouni said:
(Limited or full, I am honestly not to sure on the specifics of this ability anymore) Reactive Power Level- Every shaman has a "Shamanic Power" that is known as Furyoku(Mana in the English version of the manga). One of the biggest traits of Furyoku is that when a Shaman experiences pseudo-death, near-death, or actual death they get a boost in their Furokyu level and a extreme boost when they die. This has been Shown and Proven throughout the series and is the biggest reason Hao was able to obtain a Furyoku level of 1,250,000. (side note-Due to this, it goes without question that EVERY SINGLE Shaman that died and was resurrected after the final battle even if they didn't die to Hao would get a significant higher boost in furyoku level, thus a "Likely Higher" on their AP on their profile for their final key.)
Click to expand...
5. A few months ago, I bought a character book on Shaman King and it was a very recent one and it's in FULL Japanese. It's also created by the author. idk if it'll be a lot of info but I wanna get some stuff translated soon. but when that's done, ill let yall know in a different CRT cause I think this one is looong overdue for a close soon lol. This is what it looks like.
712Y6+8jDjL.jpg
 
What do the rest of you think about the above post?
Antvasima said:
Which other staff members have responded to this thread previously?
Click to expand...
Also, can I get a summary for this please, so I can send them a notification?
 
Antvasima said:
What do the rest of you think about the above post?

Also, can I get a summary for this please, so I can send them a notification?
Click to expand...

Here is my summary to you from before if you want to use it again:
ProfessorKukui4Life said:
Okay so the run down is that I may have something better than 3-A for Hao to be rated by instead if it checks out. Here are the details.

In Shaman King, souls can form worlds called communes that are formed from their beliefs and memories of how they lived before death. These said worlds exist inside of the Great Spirit itself, and there are at least countless amounts of these communes inside of the Great Spirit. The number of worlds being vast is supported by Yoh once saying that the Great Spirit has countless souls that are infinitely connected inside of itself.

These communes are also implied to be their own timelines since:

-They're directly based off of the real world
-Time travel is confirmed possible to perform inside of these worlds

You can read this mini scan thread I posted on Imgur here.

If this checks out, this would put 2-B as a possibility for Hao, the Great Spirit and whoever would scale.
Click to expand...
 
ProfessorKukui4Life said:
Okay so the run down is that I may have something better than 3-A for Hao to be rated by instead if it checks out. Here are the details.

In Shaman King, souls can form worlds called communes that are formed from their beliefs and memories of how they lived before death. These said worlds exist inside of the Great Spirit itself, and there are at least countless amounts of these communes inside of the Great Spirit. The number of worlds being vast is supported by Yoh once saying that the Great Spirit has countless souls that are infinitely connected inside of itself.

These communes are also implied to be their own timelines since:

-They're directly based off of the real world
-Time travel is confirmed possible to perform inside of these worlds

You can read this mini scan thread I posted on Imgur here.

If this checks out, this would put 2-B as a possibility for Hao, the Great Spirit and whoever would scale.
Click to expand...
@Duedate8898 @Dino_Ranger_Black @KingTempest @LordGriffin1000 @Damage3245 @Mr._Bambu

Would any of you be willing to help out in this thread again by evaluating the above post please?
 
Are the worlds universal in size? While it's taking the memories of each person and creating a world for each, we still need evidence for there size.
 
LordGriffin1000 said:
Are the worlds universal in size? While it's taking the memories of each person and creating a world for each, we still need evidence for there size.
Click to expand...
Yes. I gave points earlier that should help prove universal size for these worlds:

ProfessorKukui4Life said:
Well from what the scans themselves gave, here are the details:

-Time travel is possible inside of the communes and one can go anywhere, implying a commune is a timeline

-The communes are directly based off of the real world since they're formed by the beliefs and memories of the soul (the Indio commune and hell Jaco was in being explicit examples of this)

-These communes demonstrate at least cosmic sizes (the hell commune Jaco and his master were in had outer space and stars depicted inside it, and since the communes are based off the real world too, having a cosmic size should safely indicate the commune can become what the real world is, a universe)

-The communes are directly called a plane of existence too.
Click to expand...
ProfessorKukui4Life said:
Oh yeah, another minor supporting point of the Great Spirits communes replicating the real world (and by real world, I mean the universe and not simply earth of course)

Hao later on explains to Yoh and the others that the Great Spirit doesn't just record the memories of all souls born on Earth, but also records all of history, all knowledge, and even things on a more cosmological scale like planets and beyond.

0259-007.png

0259-008.png


And as I showed already in the prior scans from the Imgur album, communes are canonically explained to be formed by the memories and beliefs of a soul inside the Great Spirit. Joco's hell commune already depicted itself with stars inside of it (already proving it replicates the real world beyond just earth), so along with this point from Hao, communes being universal structures have strong evidence to support them at this point.
Click to expand...
 
Some of the stuff like time travel and "plane of existence" doesn't really support universe level in size since there can be pocket dimensions with their own time but the other stuff combined with it seems fine so I agree.
 
Thank you for the evaluation. I think that we should wait a bit to see if we receive further input before we apply this change though.
 
The great spirit has higher dimensions.
G.S. is usually portrayed with numerous dimensions on multiple layers already and Tamao did access 27 alternate worlds using its data
 
...this doesn't sit right by me at all, no. They refer to the Cloud as a higher dimension and also a different world, implying that these are not dimensions in the standard sense. Furthermore, no evidence is given regarding these higher dimensions being infinitely qualitatively superior in regards to stats, even if we did take the statement at face value.
 
6969234_1056_792_134561.png


Ehh I think the intent is that they are like communes, of which there exist higher and lower ones on a "scale":
0298-004.png


Now for the second issue you have, I agree. I dont think this verse is tier 1 or anything like that. I just think this adds credibility to kukui's 2-b option for Hao
 
Well it is said that the higher dimensions inside the GS are worlds that can't normally be accessed. That said, I don't think anyone here was suggesting tier 1 (I definitely wasn't).

The proposal is putting 2-B on the table.
 
I mean if you're talking about dealing in alt timelines/universes/what have you, sure, but you seem to be hinging on the use of the word "dimensions", which is my primary issue.
 
Thank you for helping out Bambu. It is very appreciated.
 
Well, it seems to make sense to me, but it is better to ask other staff members.
 
Cyberblader90 said:
i think kukui's previous posts help demonstrate the communes are not just planets/small dimensions
Click to expand...
It was not my argument that they were. My sole argument is that any statement of dimensions is not indicative of higher (4 or above) dimensions, which seemed to be the argument you were making.

Since the argument seems to be about getting 2-B, I'd like to see evidence of dimensions being universes (or whatever the argument is), the quantity of universes, and proof of their destruction (or a similar feat). If this has been posted already, forgive me but I missed it, and have mostly been dipping in and out of the conversation lately. I did see mention of 27 dimensions in the posts just above this, but then that wouldn't be sufficient for 2-B even if we took them as alternate universes, so I will assume that's not it.
 
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