Shakugan no Shana revisions

[Mr. Bambu]

I have updated the calcs and/or responded to your comments.

• For the Empire State Building, I redid the calc using a different method and basing it more closely to what currently exists on References for Common Feats page. The calc is now much simpler and, hoperfully, correct
• For Sydonay's blast, I'll take your verdict, but I responded since I'd like to fully understand how things work or don't work with feat interpretation.
• For Wilhelmina's blast, I updated and calc and responded.
  • For the hollowness, I had initially used 80%, but in similar building destruction calc I made, Armorchompy suggested I use 90% instead of 80%, so I had changed it to 90% for Wilhelmina's feat but had forgotten to change it on Sydonay's feat. What's your take on the hollowness % that should be used for buildings? Jasonsith gave his opinion, but he says it depends on the type of building.

90% is fine, it's what I normally use. More compact buildings tend to be 80%, so like... domestic housing and such.

 

[GoldenScorpions]

Okay, good to know. I updated Sydonay's first feat accordingly.
If Wilhelmina's is approved, can I ask you to comment, for the sake of having a trace of the conclusion on the blog?

 

[GoldenScorpions]

Whenever you can, Mr. Bambu

 

[GoldenScorpions]

• Sydonay destroys buildings (AP/SS) - Approved
• Wilhelmina blasts buildings & pulls them together (AP + LS) - Approved
• Flight speeds (Speed) - Approved
• Margery blasts the Empire State Building (AP) - Approved
  • Margery & Sydonay create an explosion (AP) (Required the ESB feat for context) - Approved
• Margery lifts a city (LS) - Approved
• Bifrons creates a crater (AP) (Preferably, to be done last, as it uses context from the previous AP calcs as justification) - Approved

Alright! It's almost done! I can see the light at the end of the tunnel for the Season 2 calcs.

Thank you for the evaluation on the previous calculations!

Only these 3 are left:

• Margery & Sydonay create an explosion (AP) - Approved
• Margery lifts a city (LS) - Approved
• Bifrons creates a crater (AP) (It uses context from the previous AP calcs) - Approved

The first one is short and should be simple. It partially uses the now-calced ESB feat for context.
The second one is specific to a single character in a specific situation, but its scale is impressive.
The last one provides one of the highest energy outputs of the verse. On top of the calc itself, part of the feat uses the other AP feats as context and justification.

 

[Antvasima]

Alright! It's almost done! I can see the light at the end of the tunnel for the Season 2 calcs.

Thank you for the evaluation on the previous calculations!

Only these 3 are left:

• Margery & Sydonay create an explosion (AP)
• Margery lifts a city (LS)
• Bifrons creates a crater (AP) (It uses context from the previous AP calcs)

The first one is short and should be simple. It partially uses the now-calced ESB feat for context.
The second one is specific to a single character in a specific situation, but its scale is impressive.
The last one provides one of the highest energy outputs of the verse. On top of the calc itself, part of the feat uses the other AP feats as context and justification.

@Mr._Bambu

Are you willing to handle the final parts of this please?

 

[GoldenScorpions]

I have a different inquiry.
Currently, all the profiles of the verse have a Note at the end that explains the rules of the Fuzetsu spell, like here. However, considering every character that will have a profile can use that spell, should its explanation be moved to the verse page instead?


Still on the Fuzetsu spell. Can I slightly change how the abilities are presented for it? Currently it says:

Time stop, Spatial Manipulation, Mind Manipulation and Pocket Reality Manipulation via Fūzetsu​

I have found some additional official sources that add more detail on the spell's characteristics and functionalities. The biggest one is that all those effects listed above are Causality-based. As in, the area affected by the spell has been severed from the flow of causality of the outside world, which in turn leads to those effects. I will, of course, update the section of the Fuzetsu to reflect that extra information + the references tied to it.

If how it works confuses you, I can offer a more detailed explanation if you prefer.

 

[Antvasima]

@Mr._Bambu

We still seem to need some help from you here.

 

[GoldenScorpions]

@Mr._Bambu

We still seem to need some help from you here.

For the calculations, yes.

For my permission-asking on adjusting the nature of the Fuzetsu spell, any discussion/feedback will help.
A little sad the people who previously commented on the thread haven't come back, but oh well.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, I did not really properly understand your second to last post, so we likely need Bambu's help with that as well.

 

[GoldenScorpions]

Imagine the world as a puzzle of 1000 white pieces.

When a Fuzetsu spell happens, the affected area is cut off from the flow of the outside world. Time, space, motion and existence itself are separated, and they are halted inside the Fuzetsu. The affected area still exists since people trapped inside can die and buildings can be destroyed, but from the perspective of humans outside of the spell, the affected area never existed.
To the supernatural entities of the verse, the puzzle becomes 999 white pieces and 1 black piece (the affected area), but the black piece is still attached to the puzzle, since it still exists.
To humans, they instead perceive the world as a completed 999-piece puzzle. The 1000th black piece doesn't register to them, because to them it doesn't exist. White the Fuzetsu is active, they don't even think about the black piece; the world always had 999 white pieces.

If we assume a Fuzetsu happens around the Eiffel Tower: while the spell is active, the tower still exists, but humans don't register it as "existing". In humans' perspective, it never existed. But when the spell is undone, the Eiffel Tower goes back to "having always existed" and humans don't recall the blank time where it had not.
Essentially, an area affected by a Fuzetsu is similar to if it had temporarily stopped existing from a human-world sense. While active, humans live as if it never existed. When undone, humans live as if it existed as normal. Same deal with people trapped inside the spell.

That's what I mean by saying the Fuzetsu does a Causality-based time stop + temporary existence erasure/memory manip/mind manip

I hope that's clearer.

 

[Antvasima]

It seems more like a form of time-space manipulation on its own, likely limited time-space manipulation unless it can be used for other purposes as well.

 

[GoldenScorpions]

I agree that it is a form of time-space manipulation; those powers are already listed under the spell on the profiles. My argument is that the source of the time-space manipulation is causality-based, that's it.

 

[Antvasima]

I do not think that seems self-evident or explicitly explained. Listing it as limited time-space manipulation seems safer, as it is more generic.

 

[GoldenScorpions]

Even though it quite literally splits an area off the rest of the world in a way that causes it to stop existing from a human universe perspective?
Comparatively, Shadow's Chaos Control affects space-time too, but it doesn't sever the area from the flow of causality of the outside world

 

[Antvasima]

Well, I am not sure. It isn't really my area of knowledge.

 

[GoldenScorpions]

I know DontTalk and Everything12 have seen Shakugan no Shana, but I know they're very busy so I don't want to bother them.
I tried asking one of the early thread participants to come who's also experienced with the series, to perhaps hear their opinion

 

[Antvasima]

I know DontTalk and Everything12 have seen Shakugan no Shana, but I know they're very busy so I don't want to bother them.
I tried asking one of the early thread participants to come who's also experienced with the series, to perhaps hear their opinion

@Everything12

Would you be willing to help out here please?

 

[GoldenScorpions]

.

I have updated/responded to your comments in the three calculations.
I would have preferred if you had commented on this thread that you had looked at them, since I was waiting for your reply, lol. I didn't receive notifications that you had responded.

 

[Antvasima]

What currently needs to be done and evaluated here?

 

[GoldenScorpions]

What currently needs to be done and evaluated here?

Currently, there is one calculation left from Season 2 to be evaluated.
As well as the Fuzetsu spell's workings.



After that is Season 3, which I'm close to halfway through. However that will be much simpler and will only have a couple calcs at most for specific attacks.
Most statistics have already been determined for the characters, so S3 will mostly serve to be sure there's no AP upgrades or new character forms.

 

[GoldenScorpions]

I will attempt to sell you on the Fuzetsu again.

• When the spell happens, a large area is covered in a dome-shaped immaterial forcefield of sorts. It is a separate space and what happens inside a Fuzetsu follows different rules from the outside world. Entering it is akin to entering a new mini-dimension of sorts. Anyone outside the Fuzetsu, including those who can sense the spell, cannot see or hear what happens inside it. Same goes for those inside, they cannot perceive what happens outside. Finally, energy released inside a Fuzetsu cannot go outside it until the spell ends. Spatial manipulation and Pocket Reality.
• Any object, non-otherwordly entity or non-allowed-to-enter human is frozen in time, unable to move, think or sense anything. Time stop.
• Regular creatures outside the Fuzetsu will subconsciously avoid the affected area, no matter what they intended to do there, as long as the spell is active, like a mass mind suggestion. It's like they "forget" what they had to do there or anyone they wanted to meet there. The idea when the Fuzetsu spell was created was to make it so ordinary living beings cannot ever interact with it or whatever happens inside. planetary Mind manipulation and Memory manipulation.
• As long as the Fuzetsu is active, to regular creatures, the affected area would have never existed in the first place. It essentially stops existing from a human-world sense. While active, humans live as if the location never existed and don't even register that a part of the world is "missing". When the spells ends, humans live as if it had always existed, like normal. Limited Existence Erasure/Perception Manipulation.
• There is one reason why all these effects happen. When a Fuzetsu is activated, the area is separated from the flow of causality of the outside world. When something moves from outside the Fuzetsu to inside it, motion, cause and effect, time, and perception of that something cease entirely, like a plug had been removed to stop those things. If a human enters a Fuzetsu, they stop existing to other humans. The separation from the flow of causality is at the level "of inside the Fuzetsu vs outside the Fuzetsu" and not that causality within the Fuzetsu is changed. If a fireball is thrown at a Fuzetsu from outside, the energy will cause no effect. An earthquake happening inside the Fuzetsu won't affect the outside and vice-versa. Limited Causality Manipulation.

I hope this helps

 

[DontTalkDT]

I will attempt to sell you on the Fuzetsu again.

• When the spell happens, a large area is covered in a dome-shaped immaterial forcefield of sorts. It is a separate space and what happens inside a Fuzetsu follows different rules from the outside world. Entering it is akin to entering a new mini-dimension of sorts. Anyone outside the Fuzetsu, including those who can sense the spell, cannot see or hear what happens inside it. Same goes for those inside, they cannot perceive what happens outside. Finally, energy released inside a Fuzetsu cannot go outside it until the spell ends. Spatial manipulation and Pocket Reality.
• Any object, non-otherwordly entity or non-allowed-to-enter human is frozen in time, unable to move, think or sense anything. Time stop.
• Regular creatures outside the Fuzetsu will subconsciously avoid the affected area, no matter what they intended to do there, as long as the spell is active, like a mass mind suggestion. It's like they "forget" what they had to do there or anyone they wanted to meet there. The idea when the Fuzetsu spell was created was to make it so ordinary living beings cannot ever interact with it or whatever happens inside. planetary Mind manipulation and Memory manipulation.
• As long as the Fuzetsu is active, to regular creatures, the affected area would have never existed in the first place. It essentially stops existing from a human-world sense. While active, humans live as if the location never existed and don't even register that a part of the world is "missing". When the spells ends, humans live as if it had always existed, like normal. Limited Existence Erasure/Perception Manipulation.
• There is one reason why all these effects happen. When a Fuzetsu is activated, the area is separated from the flow of causality of the outside world. When something moves from outside the Fuzetsu to inside it, motion, cause and effect, time, and perception of that something cease entirely, like a plug had been removed to stop those things. If a human enters a Fuzetsu, they stop existing to other humans. The separation from the flow of causality is at the level "of inside the Fuzetsu vs outside the Fuzetsu" and not that causality within the Fuzetsu is changed. If a fireball is thrown at a Fuzetsu from outside, the energy will cause no effect. An earthquake happening inside the Fuzetsu won't affect the outside and vice-versa. Limited Causality Manipulation.

I hope this helps

By the way you describe it that sounds alright. What are the sources for that description, though?

 

[GoldenScorpions]

By the way you describe it that sounds alright. What are the sources for that description, though?

Beyond the story itself through visuals, there are a couple official guide books, booklets and volumes that go over the SnS's lore, terminology and spells. That is where the Fuzetsu is explained in more cosmological terms.

 

[Antvasima]

I also think that what you described seems fine to apply.

Can you link to the remaining calculations that need to be evaluated here please?

 

[GoldenScorpions]

For now, the one left is this:

• Bifrons creates a crater (AP)

 

[GoldenScorpions]

Final thing about the Fuzetsu.
I was thinking that, since every character in the series can use the spell, instead of weighing all the character profiles down with a large "rules of the Fuzetsu" section, that section should be moved to the verse page.
I've seen that it's common to have cosmology and terminology information be detailed on verse pages, especially concerning important concepts (such as the Fuzetsu, in this case).
The character profiles would keep a simple description of the spell in their "Notable attacks/techniques" section, but the more detailed information would be on the verse page.

 

[Antvasima]

For now, the one left is this:

• Bifrons creates a crater (AP)

It seems like Mr. Bambu has accepted it.

 

[Antvasima]

Final thing about the Fuzetsu.
I was thinking that, since every character in the series can use the spell, instead of weighing all the character profiles down with a large "rules of the Fuzetsu" section, that section should be moved to the verse page.
I've seen that it's common to have cosmology and terminology information be detailed on verse pages, especially concerning important concepts (such as the Fuzetsu, in this case).
The character profiles would keep a simple description of the spell in their "Notable attacks/techniques" section, but the more detailed information would be on the verse page.

I do not think that seems like a good idea, unless it is significant enough to list as a verse-specific powers and abilities page.

 

[GoldenScorpions]

It seems like Mr. Bambu has accepted it.

Beautiful.

I do not think that seems like a good idea, unless it is significant enough to list as a verse-specific powers and abilities page.

Alright, I'll trust your judgment.

 

[GoldenScorpions]

This means that all of Season 2's calculations have been evaluated! Yay!

Alright, so here's the plan.
There is still Season 3 left. However, that will be much simpler. It will only have a couple calcs at most for specific attacks. Most statistics have already been determined for the characters from the calculations of the first two seasons, so S3 will mostly serve to make sure there's no AP upgrades or new character forms. And nearly all the new characters in S3 scale to characters from S1 and S2.
I will wait until I'm a little further into S3 before making more profiles (currently almost halfway through), just for the sake of making sure there isn't any inconsistency and of avoiding any potential dozens of edits per character should they occur, as unlikely as it is.
This series is close to my heart, so I want to be as careful as possible.

 

[GoldenScorpions]

A huge, huge, huge thank you to Mr. Bambu for taking the time to evaluate so many calculations despite his aversion to anime content.
Massive appreciation!

 

[Antvasima]

A huge, huge, huge thank you to Mr. Bambu for taking the time to evaluate so many calculations despite his aversion to anime content.
Massive appreciation!

Yes, thanks a lot to him.

What should we currently do with this thread then? Lock it?

 

[GoldenScorpions]

There are a couple things I know are coming up in S3 that I will likely be wanting some feedback on. But, at this point, it might be easier to make a new thread about them when I come across them during my rewatch, rather than keep this one open for even longer.
I only now realized I started this project over a year ago, holy cow. That's probably why I had such a hard time trying to keep things active here.

 

[GoldenScorpions]

In spite of all the time it took to get things going, checked, evaluated and accepted, I'm very happy with how things turned out.

Shakugan no Shana is a series close to my heart, so I'm very glad I was able to work on this project. Not only was Shana's profile corrected and salvaged from its sad pre-CRT state, but a verse page and 6 additional profiles were made (with more to come). Even the hard-to-explain unique cosmology and verse-specific abilities were overhauled and evaluated.

All the big things have been handled.

• Season 1 calcs were evaluated.
• Season 2 calcs were evaluated.
• The verse-specific and race-specific abilities were approved, for both Flame Hazes and Crimson Denizens.
• The presentation of those abilities was decided and approved.
• The rulings of the Fuzetsu were approved and then updated (I will be updating the existing profiles with the new agreed-upon changes to the Fuzetsu soon-ish).

The rest should be much simpler thankfully.


I want to give a massive 'Thank you' to everyone who participated in this CRT, from as early as the thread's creation to even now. It's thanks to you I was able to power through this project and the hours upon hours of feat-gathering, cosmology-explaining, sources-finding, and feat-calcing. Tackling all this gathering work by myself was hard, but the results are here, and it makes me glad.
Thank you especially, Ant, for following this CRT for so long despite being a series you weren't familiar with, and regularly checking on it.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, if there are still things to get done during your project for this verse, it may be better to keep this thread open, as it is unlikely that you will receive any attention for your continued connected revisions otherwise.

 

[GoldenScorpions]

Hmmm, perhaps you're right. It doesn't hurt to keep it open.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Only post here if you have any genuinely important updates for this project to share though.

 

[GoldenScorpions]

Okay. Only post here if you have any genuinely important updates for this project to share though.

Of course. Thanks

 

[Antvasima]

No problem at all.