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Shakugan no Shana revisions

GoldenScorpions

GoldenScorpions

He/Him
3,021
1,215
Project thread abour revising the Shana profile and extending the Shakugan no Shana verse with more profiles.

Currently, the Shana profile page (created back in 2015, and later editted several times, including myself) is outdated, stats are greatly overestimated, some things are straight-up wrong, and no calcs exist to back-up anything.

A few years ago, I had began a rework plan for Shana and the addition of other verse profiles, which involved rewatching all the episodes, and track all abilities and potentially calculable feats. Unfortunately, due to the sheer size of the project, it's been on-hold for a few years now and I never got the chance to get back to it.

But since I found someone who seems to know the verse as well, guess it's time to pick up the project.

Unfortunately because the Light Novel was never localized in english past Volume 2 (out of the 26) and fan-translations never really went anywhere, that only leaves us with the anime. I say the anime, because the manga doesn't go beyond the 2nd arc (halfway-through season 1 of the anime, out of the 3 seasons and 76 episodes + 1 movie). Maybe the Eternal Song manga could be used, since it adapted Vol.10 of the LN and depicts events that occured centuries prior to the main story, as some characters appear in both the main series and prequel.

As such, the LN can't be used, and I doubt we can find anyone who can read japanese and has the read the Shana LN. This leaves the anime, for which I had gathered the abilities and possible feats with timestamps until ep18 of season 1.

And, at least for now and from what I gathered, it's clear that Shana is nowhere near the AP she currently has on her profile. The details can be finetuned later, but my plan was to split Shana into 4 keys:
  • Base (or Human)
  • BoS Flame Haze (during the last fight vs Friagne, Shana gets her first power-boost, so this key is about her strength before that)
  • MoS Flame Haze (between the last Friagne fight and mid-Season 3)
  • EoS Flame Haze (after her awakening when she regains her powers)
Because I've noticed big gaps in terms of power for each.
 
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Would it be more helpful if the profile is made clear its based on the anime version of the character?
 
I still have the link to that clip from the Shana movie to calc Tenpa Josai if anyone needs it. Seems to be the only time it showed up in the anime, dunno about the novel's take, though allegedly it did, but got cut. Too bad no translations for later volumes right now.

Also bump.
 
I have the Shakugan no Shana raws for all 22 Novels + the additional 0+S+SII short story novels and some of the Guidebooks/Artbooks.
Problem is that there is no one who will be willing to translate the whole series.
 
RM97 said:
I have the Shakugan no Shana raws for all 22 Novels + the additional 0+S+SII short story novels and some of the Guidebooks/Artbooks.
Problem is that there is no one who will be willing to translate the whole series.
Click to expand...
Oooof, that's gonna be a bummer, so we may have to go with in-anime feats and calcs for the time being.
 
Thank you to everybody who are helping out.
 
Yes, the anime seems to be the best source currently. The manga could be used, but only for backing up statements, abilities or feats the anime has within the first 2 arcs (since the manga only goes so far). So the Shana profile would likely need a note at the end specifying this is base near-exclusively on the anime.

I remember seeing that person's comments on Shakugan no Shana, but wasn't able to focus on that at the time, so I checked it again now.
We miiight be able to use some things, but we need to be very careful how the word "world" is used in the series. The point and mission of Flame Hazes is to "maintain the balance of the world", but 'world' is a broad concept. Considering what happens in the series, we shouldn't assume that events that "threaten the balance of the world" should be Planet level; nothing of that scale ever happens. It's stated and showcased on many occasions how even a small imbalance can affect the rest via a domino effect. If the city of Misaki is deleted, like what Friagne attempted to do, the result would affect the "world" in the sense that an entire metropolitan city vanishing would create chaos, which in turn would throw off the balance of the world.
 
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GoldenScorpions said:
Yes, the anime seems to be the best source currently. The manga could be used, but only for backing up statements, abilities or feats the anime has within the first 2 arcs (since the manga only goes so far). So the Shana profile would likely need a note at the end specifying this is base near-exclusively on the anime.

I remember seeing that person's comments on Shakugan no Shana, but wasn't able to focus on that at the time, so I checked it again now.
We miiight be able to use some things, but we need to be very careful how the word "world" is used in the series. The point and mission of Flame Hazes is to "maintain the balance of the world", but 'world' is a broad concept. Considering what happens in the series, we shouldn't assume that events that "threaten the balance of the world" should be Planet level; nothing of that scale ever happens. It's stated and showcased on many occasions how even a small imbalance can affect the rest via a domino effect. If the city of Misaki is deleted, like what Friagne attempted to do, the result would affect the "world" in the sense that an entire metropolitan city vanishing would create chaos, which in turn would throw off the balance of the world.
Click to expand...
Well it may not necessarily be just Planet Level because the Snake of the Festival, a Crimson God who is superior to Alastor, who is still comparable, was able to create Xanadu, an exact copy of Misaki City and by technicality a parallel world, likely dimension/universe. But it's so vague without much more confirmation at least anime-wise. There were some CD audio dramas where it shows Shana and Yuji going about in the New World Xanadu essentially on patrol.
 
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Hello, hello
After much calcs, busy life, re-calcs, calcs for another verse, more busy life, and more re-calcs, I have finally compiled a first list of feats for the series. For now, these are based on early Season 1. It took so long because the biggest of the 4 calcs was really tricky to do, and required a lot of explaining.
I really, really hope this gets somewhere, and that at least some of the calcs will be accepted
For now, I posted the blog on the Calc Evaluation page
 
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GoldenScorpions said:
Hello, hello
After much calcs, busy life, re-calcs, calcs for another verse, more busy life, and more re-calcs, I have finally compiled a first list of feats for the series. For now, these are based on early Season 1. It took so long because the biggest of the 4 calcs was really tricky to do, and required a lot of explaining.
I really, really hope this gets somewhere, and that at least some of the calcs will be accepted
Click to expand...
@M3X @DMUA @Psychomaster35 @Dark-Carioca

Would any of you be willing to evaluate this and then tell us here please?
 
GoldenScorpions said:
Hello, hello
After much calcs, busy life, re-calcs, calcs for another verse, more busy life, and more re-calcs, I have finally compiled a first list of feats for the series. For now, these are based on early Season 1. It took so long because the biggest of the 4 calcs was really tricky to do, and required a lot of explaining.
I really, really hope this gets somewhere, and that at least some of the calcs will be accepted
For now, I posted the blog on the Calc Evaluation page
Click to expand...
I've replied
 
Dark-Carioca said:
I've replied
Click to expand...
I updated a few things based on your comments, and replied.

In the end, the speed calc was correct, then? I must admit I was quite unsure if it was correct to apply the same % of Shana's visible body on Friagne for calcing the distance between them. I had never done a distance calc where one of the characters/objects isn't entirely visible.
 
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"The scene in question"

Good lord what is going on with that animation... I also don't see much of the museum being destroyed there. Not in its entirety anwyay, unless there's a shot of the aftermath where we see there's nothing left.
 
In the third calc, the museum isn't much destroyed, only a bit of the dome is, which is why I only used 33% destruction for glass, 10% for steel and 25% for rock.
It's in the second calc where most of the dome is gone. I added two screenshots from after the rampage where the characters are standing at the very bottom glass dome/at the top floor of the stone building itself
 
It's almost over, though not entirely. Calcs #1 and #4 are good, and #3 seems to be good too, if Carioca responds favorably to the lower destruction percentages of the materials. But I haven't seen feedback for the 2nd calc, which is the big one. Considering the 3rd calc is based on the 2nd, it's rather important
 
GoldenScorpions said:
It's almost over, though not entirely. Calcs #1 and #4 are good, and #3 seems to be good too, if Carioca responds favorably to the lower destruction percentages of the materials. But I haven't seen feedback for the 2nd calc, which is the big one. Considering the 3rd calc is based on the 2nd, it's rather important
Click to expand...
@Dark-Carioca
 
Thanks a lot for your help, Carioca.
So in the end, ofr the speed calc, applying the same % of Shana's visible body on Friagne for calcing the distance between them was the correct move. I had never done a distance calc where one of the characters/objects isn't entirely visible.

In any case, I'm happy this first wave was completed and accepted. This gives a first look at stats for early SnS (Shakugan no Shana). It's still far from over, but this gives me confidence in continuing.
I'll eventually come back with feats for the rest of Season 1, hopefully soon-ish
 
Thank you for helping out, Carioca.

So is somebody willing to apply what has been accepted here so far?
 
As I mentioned above, this was merely a first step towards the correction of the Shana profile and the implementation of more SnS profiles.
If edited now, the edits would only affect some parts of the Shana profile (meaning the rest won't be fully accurate yet, until further gathering of feats/calcs which will take a while). If that's fine, then I will.
 
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Okay. I suppose that you can continue with your preparations then.
 
Sorry I wasn't too active here. Tbh I was trying to find decent scans from the LN to see if it would help, but to no avail.
 
Obtaining LN data without it being translated is sadly impossible.
I managed to find someone who's currently translating the Shana LNs (among other LNs), but from JP to Spanish; and a Shana FB page looking into turning that Spanish translation into English. However, that entire process will likely take years, so the anime still remains the best source of info for a while.
 
I've done 5 more calcs since last time, but I'll make sure I've got all the possible calcable feats from Season 1 before submitting them for evaluation
 
While I continue rewatching the anime and gathering feats and calcs, there are some things I'd like to be discussed in the meantime, about Shakugan no Shana that will affect the profiles. It has to do with the unique attributes of the supernatural beings in the series + a bit of cosmology.
Besides humans, there are a few types of supernatural beings, the main two being Flame Hazes and Crimson Denizens, and they both have certain abilities as a result of their nature and cosmology. Some of those abilities are combat-applicable and some are not. My objective is to fine-tune how they should be written/presented on the profiles, as they are tricky.

I'll start with Flame Hazes. These are the shared abilities of Flame Hazes, the way I have written them for now.



In other terms, there are two "life forces" in Shakugan no Shana: the human-universe one, and the Crimson Realm one. Flame Hazes and Crimson Denizens can manipulate both, but only the life force of the universe they are currently in (i.e. only the human life force can be used in the human universe). Neither FH not CD can manipulate the energy from the Crimson Realm beyond spells; they cannot use Existence Erasure, Conceptual Manipulation, or any of the rest using the CR energy, but can do so with the human-universe energy because its nature is fundamentally different from the CR one.
As such, FH and Denizens cannot mess with each other's life force, existence or concepts, but they can mess with the human-universe life force for those things.


Any feedback is appreciated, and any questions on how things work are welcome, as they would help finetune how to best phrase everything.
 
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Dragopentling said:
Looks really good, though I'll need to read it again thoroughly much later. Otherwise, nothing in particular that I find a problem with here.
Click to expand...
Thank you for helping out.
GoldenScorpions said:
While I continue rewatching the anime and gathering feats and calcs, there are some things I'd like to be discussed in the meantime, about Shakugan no Shana that will affect the profiles. It has to do with the unique attributes of the supernatural beings in the series + a bit of cosmology.
Besides humans, there are a few types of supernatural beings, the main two being Flame Hazes and Crimson Denizens, and they both have certain abilities as a result of their nature and cosmology. Some of those abilities are combat-applicable and some are not. My objective is to fine-tune how they should be written/presented on the profiles, as they are tricky.

I'll start with Flame Hazes. These are the shared abilities of Flame Hazes, the way I have written them for now.

  • Combat-Applicable
    • Energy Manipulation, Life Manipulation and Non-Physical Interaction (Can interact with Power of Existence, a fundamental energy akin to human life force that is required for something to exist and have a presence in our universe. Can also interact with creatures made of PoE as well as beings of other universes and planes of existence. Flame Hazes can use and manipulate the Power of Existence of a person or object, either for Magic or emergency Healing) (An additional link will be added)
    • Nonexistent Physiology (Nature Type 1, Aspect Types 2, 4 & 5, limited to the human/our universe) (When a human enters a contract with a Crimson Lord to become a Flame Haze, their entire Power of Existence is taken up by the Crimson Lord's existence, causing them to lose their identity, presence, history and very own existence in our universe, and drastically reducing the effect they have on it through their actions; they also stop possessing any information related to them as it was erased from existence the moment they lost their human nature. Becoming a Flame Haze doesn't create a new identity nor does it give them a solid presence in our universe, and their body becomes a shell containing the otherworldly life force they obtained from their Crimson Lord. The concept of that other life force doesn't exist in our universe, which makes Flame Hazes made out of something that doesn't exist and cannot be registered from the perspective of our universe. However, other otherworldly beings should be unaffected by a Flame Haze's nonexistent nature) (Screenshots and links will be added to back this up, and there's a character who can be used perfectly to justify this)
    • Perception Manipulation (Flame Hazes are, by nature, hard for humans to notice unless they desire it, due to their lack of conventional existence. They can also increase the effect of this ability)
  • Not Combat-Applicable
  • Resistances
    • Information Manipulation (Type 2) (As Flame Hazes lack identities, history and a presence in the world, they don't possess any information related to their fundamental "existence" to be manipulated, and that from the moment they become Flame Hazes)
    • Partial Resistance to Perception Manipulation (Flame Hazes can resist the passive lack of presence exuding from other Flame Hazes and Crimson Denizens, but don't resist the ability if it comes from a separate spell or mechanism, or if it's purposely amplified)
    • Partial Resistance to Life Manipulation, Conceptual Manipulation and Existence Erasure (The life force, body, history and "existence" of Flame Hazes refers to a vacuum opened in the universe's space-time, all of which were sacrificed to cease their human existence and to enter a contract with their respective Crimson Lord; the concept of "human" stopped applying to them entirely. Those aspects cannot be tampered with because: 1) the presence, identity, history and existence of a Flame Haze's human life have stopped existing, 2) in their place came forth a new "existence" that is made up of their Crimson Lord's life force, who comes from the Crimson Realm, another universe, 3) that new "existence" cannot be erased by human-universe-affecting abilities due to Flame Hazes not existing in a conventional human-universe sense, and because the otherworldly energy of Crimson Lords that Flame Hazes are made of doesn't follow or obey the rules of our universe. Neither Crimson Lords nor other Flame Hazes can tamper with a Flame Haze's "existence" or "concept", including erasure, as they are incapable of manipulating the Crimson Realm's life force. As such, Flame Hazes should be vulnerable to abilities messing with the unique life force of the Crimson Realm, or, in simpler terms, to Life/Conceptual/Existence Manipulation that can affect beings from fundamentally different universes and worlds from ours) (Screenshots and links will be added to back this up)


In other terms, there are two "life forces" in Shakugan no Shana: the human-universe one, and the Crimson Realm one. Flame Hazes and Crimson Denizens can manipulate both, but only the life force of the universe they are currently in (i.e. only the human life force can be used in the human universe). Neither FH not CD can manipulate the CR energy beyond spells; they cannot use Existence Erasure, Conceptual Manipulation, or any of the rest using the CR energy, but can do so with the human-universe energy because its nature is fundamentally different from the CR one.
As such, FH and Denizens cannot mess with each other's life force, existence or concepts, but they can mess with the human-universe life force for those things.


Any feedback is appreciated, and any questions on how things work are welcome, as they would help finetune how to best phrase everything.
Click to expand...
@Duedate8898 @Planck69 @KingTempest @UchihaSlayer96

Your help here would also be very appreciated.
 
Does any of the above stuff use information from light novels, or other such sources? As I have knowledge of the anime but while none of the stuff seems inherently wrong, the mention of concepts is not one I can remember happening in the anime.
 
Everything12 said:
the mention of concepts is not one I can remember happening in the anime
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While probably not on the same detail as the Light Novel, the anime does provide information on those aspects and concepts, either through dialogue, certain characters, or even arcs. The entire first arc of the series deals with all the Non-combat applicable stuff, the Non-Existent Physiology is showcased indirectly through Shana and directly through Yuji and Khamsin, and the last batch of resistances is a combination of the previous statements and links, observations throughout the series of what can and cannot be done, and a few quotes that tackle those aspects
 
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