Servants Invulnerability downgrade

[The_Smashor]

Currently, we have Servants as immune to all modern weapons due to this statement, and we consider them to be immune to weapons without magic or a certain amount of age. However, this is not what the statement says.

However, Rin says Servants cannot be hurt by normal means, not that they're immune to modern weapons. She states that only a Servant can hurt a Servant, regardless of what weapon they're using. She even says that a paper knife could hurt a Servant if it was used by another Servant, meaning the weapon is irrelevant. She's basically saying that only Servants can hurt Servants.

Of course, this would be an upgrade, right? But anyone who knows about fate knows that's not true, since Shirou and Rin are more than capable of damaging Servants. Rin can even do so with her bare hands, so long as she uses reinforcement magic on them. Not to mention Servants being able to be damaged by non-servants constantly in Fate/Grand Order.

It's also a massive NLF to assume Servants are totally immune to any an all modern tech, espesially since the Fate Series has gone out of it's way to specify when NLF bait is legit before. There's no reason to believe that Servants are immune to modern weapons that are on their level, and there's no reason to assume that Rin included things like nukes when she said that (Espesially since Rin in general lacks knowledge of modern technology, making it unlikely she even knows nuclear bombs exist, and even if she does she probably dosn't know exactly how strong they are).

In general, this statement is misinterpreted on this website, is very often contradicted and is a massive NLF. It just dosn't seem usable.

 

[Eminiteable]

I agree with this

 

[KingTempest]

Agreed

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

100% agree, it’s clear she means normal humans with standard weapons can’t hurt servants, but it has been shown many times that humans can hurt servants with magic

 

[LordGinSama]

Agreed.


Now we wait for the massive chunk of text copy and pasted from one of the novels riddled with typical Nasu hyperbole.

 

[Overlord775]

Whole bunch of nonsense

Servants's invulnerability is based on Mistery, and magecraft like that of Rin and Shirou can harm them because it has Mistery, that's why they can harm servants

FGO gameplay isn't canon, so you can't use it to prove points, besides basically all enemies are either magical or magically enhacenced and the rest are told as utter stomps

also, no, nothing about Avenger's speack says anything about tech, he is just talking of power, so you can't make assumptions like that when humans in fate are magecraft centric

also, we don't have just Rin's word, Spartacus' noble phantasm specifically infuses debrires with magical energy, which it says would normally not be able to harm servants.

And finally, it doesn't matter if Rin doesn't know about nukes, it's the mechanism in of itself that matters. Servants can only be harmed by stuff with Mistery

 

[LordGinSama]

Sounds like "Only stands can beat stands!" nonsense.

 

[Overlord775]

Considering Spartacus' thing and how even boulders thrown by a servant wouldn't do anything without magical energy, no, it very much isn't.

 

[Hl3_or_bust]

Agreed.


Now we wait for the massive chunk of text copy and pasted from one of the novels riddled with typical Nasu hyperbole.

kindly take your head out of your ass and engage with the topic in a manner indicative of an adult and not a prepubescent

On the topic of the OP, I do not see your logic here. You use Shirou and Rin hurting Servants to say they can be damaged by normal shit, when both of those people can only do that due to their own magic, which possesses mystery and is thus avoiding the "modern" qualifier. I'm also fairly certain there's more evidence for this than that one scan, although I do not know of any myself, so I'll try to avoid falling back on that at any point.

 

[Everything12]

LordGinSama shouldn't have been so dismissive even as a joke. HI3 shouldn't have been so rude. Be calm.

I'm neutral leaning towards disagree, but do not have much in the way of opinion or evidence to bring forth of my own.

 

[LordGinSama]

kindly take your head out of your ass and engage with the topic in a manner indicative of an adult and not a prepubescent

The amount of irony wrapped up in one post here is hilarious, I made an obvious humorous remark and you reply with the most condescending comment I've seen in ages. Practice what you preach and sit down.

also willing to bet I'm older than you kiddo

 

[Hl3_or_bust]

The amount of irony wrapped up in one post here is hilarious, I made an obvious humorous remark and you reply with the most condescending comment I've seen in ages. Practice what you preach and sit down.

also willing to bet I'm older than you kiddo

I don't want to derail this thread so I'll be brief and simply ignore you from beyond this point.

It's real rich of you to call my remark condescending, which it is and I am not denying that, when your own comment is just a pre-emptive insult towards anyone who may for whatever reason defend the scan. Plus, there is no way for someone to discern sarcasm through plain text with no qualifiers, thus giving you plausible deniability. Also, not to be personal, but you don't sound particularly mature regardless of what you, unverifiably, say is your age.

 

[Everything12]

LordGinSama, I'd prefer you did not continue this after I told both you to not. I don't want to see anymore of this from either of you in this thread for here on. Understand, get back on topic and stop taking jabs and insulting other users and their opinions.

 

[Bernkastelll]

Whole bunch of nonsense

Servants's invulnerability is based on Mistery, and magecraft like that of Rin and Shirou can harm them because it has Mistery, that's why they can harm servants

FGO gameplay isn't canon, so you can't use it to prove points, besides basically all enemies are either magical or magically enhacenced and the rest are told as utter stomps

also, no, nothing about Avenger's speack says anything about tech, he is just talking of power, so you can't make assumptions like that when humans in fate are magecraft centric

also, we don't have just Rin's word, Spartacus' noble phantasm specifically infuses debrires with magical energy, which it says would normally not be able to harm servants.

And finally, it doesn't matter if Rin doesn't know about nukes, it's the mechanism in of itself that matters. Servants can only be harmed by stuff with Mistery

can u show scans?

 

[The_Smashor]

The idea was that Rin's speech dosn't even imply that Servants are immune to modern weapons, not that Servants can be harmed from normal weapons. Rin says what matters is that a Servant is using the weapon at all. "Even a paper knife can hurt a servant if wielded by another servant."

There's no proof that a theoretical tier 6 or higher nonmagical weapon would fail to hurt Servants, since no such thing exists in Fate.

 

[Hl3_or_bust]

The idea was that Rin's speech dosn't even imply that Servants are immune to modern weapons, not that Servants can be harmed from normal weapons. Rin says what matters is that a Servant is using the weapon at all. Even a paper knife can hurt a servant if wielded by another servant.

I see, but I still don't understand how you come to the conclusion that they can be hurt by anything on their level? I can't tell if I'm just misreading something or not but there seems to be a jump from that logical point to "anything on their level can hurt a Servant" without any actual reasoning.

 

[The_Smashor]

Rin says that any weapon can hurt a Servant if wielded by another Servant, and that otherwise they're immune to physical damage; implying that no weapons, no matter how strong or magical, can harm a Servant when not wielded by a Servant. And this is obviously not true.

 

[Hl3_or_bust]

Rin says that any weapon can hurt a Servant if wielded by another Servant, and that otherwise they're immune to physical damage; implying that no weapons, no matter how strong or magical, can harm a Servant when not wielded by a Servant. And this is obviously not true.

hm.

this falls into the category of the other potential evidence for this that I'm fairly sure exists but lack access to myself. Although, one thing that strikes me as odd here is that, if I recall correctly, Servants are essentially made of mana, or something of that nature, which magic is as well. And even ignoring that, I seriously doubt that Rin, or rather Nasu to some extent, forgot that magic has been actively used to combat Servants before in that same story, and would thus say this in complete opposition to the events of the story.

 

[The_Smashor]

Also, this statement from Rin is the only evidence given for Servant invulnerability on the Servant Physiology page.

 

[Bernkastelll]

I see, but I still don't understand how you come to the conclusion that they can be hurt by anything on their level? I can't tell if I'm just misreading something or not but there seems to be a jump from that logical point to "anything on their level can hurt a Servant" without any actual reasoning.

The scan in the OP says that as heroic spirits, they cannot be hurt by conventional means, which can means that they just are too strong, I dont know, I need better context

 

[Schnee_One]

I see, but I still don't understand how you come to the conclusion that they can be hurt by anything on their level?

Wouldn’t it need to be the opposite? That something on their level of power can’t hurt them without mystery?

 

[Hl3_or_bust]

Wouldn’t it need to be the opposite? That something on their level of power can’t hurt them without mystery?

I... beg your pardon? You didn't say anything rude, I'm just confused.

I was stating what Smashor's conclusion was, not what the current treatment is or what I believe it to be.

 

[Bernkastelll]

I would like to see the scans of people that disagree with the removal, as someone contextless, such a thing as ''the only ones that can physically hurt a servant are others servants'' are indeed vague, while it could be invulnerability, it also could just be that servants are way too strong that cannot be hurt by others means but a servant attacking them

 

[The_Smashor]

Basically, my point is, the Rin statement is the only evidence for the invulnerability (That we can find) and it dosn't actually imply invulnerability in the way it's stated on the Servant Physiology page.

 

[Overlord775]

The idea was that Rin's speech dosn't even imply that Servants are immune to modern weapons, not that Servants can be harmed from normal weapons. Rin says what matters is that a Servant is using the weapon at all. "Even a paper knife can hurt a servant if wielded by another servant."

Servants can imbue things they touch with magical energy (See Saber using Mana Burst to enhance a motorcycle)

There's no proof that a theoretical tier 6 or higher nonmagical weapon would fail to hurt Servants, since no such thing exists in Fate.

and there's no need for it, mechanics + logic is enough

 

[The_Smashor]

We have zero proof of these mechanics what so ever minus this statement that dosn't even say what you're saying it says.

If anything, I'm the one with logic on my side.

 

[Bernkastelll]

@Overlord775 if there does exist more scans about it, can u send it please? well, according to Smashor, there isnt, but does u know if there is more?

 

[CrimsonStarFallen]

For the record I do agree, but not for the reasons given here (honestly pretty bad lol)

The scans used are mistranslated, as seen here.

TL;DR, Servants have Invulnerability, yes. Via Intangibility. They render all modern weapons useless via spirit form.

This does make Intangibility more usable in fights with opponents with no NPI or ESP, so, yay.

 

[Hl3_or_bust]

I was informed of this a few moments ago, so I guess I do agree.

 

[Bernkastelll]

For the record I do agree, but not for the reasons given here (honestly pretty bad lol)

The scans used are mistranslated, as seen here.

TL;DR, Servants have Invulnerability, yes. Via Intangibility. They render all modern weapons useless via spirit form.

This does make Intangibility more usable in fights with opponents with no NPI or ESP, so, yay.

Well, it should be intagibility and not invulnerability, if nobody proves otherwise in this thread, I do agree with the removal

 

[Overlord775]

well, shit

 

[CrimsonStarFallen]

Well, it should be intagibility and not invulnerability

Yes, I am aware. I was joking lol.

 

[Bernkastelll]

Yes, I am aware. I was joking lol.

my bad

 

[The_Smashor]

Also, wouldn't their intangibility only apply to spirit form? I mean, Artoria and Pseudo-Servants exist so it's not like all servants are always intangible.

 

[CrimsonStarFallen]

No, Intangibility applies for characters who turn Incorporeal. If they were Incorporeal all the time, they would just be Incorporeal.

Spirit form is the Intangibility.

 

[Hl3_or_bust]

Spirit Form is usually seen as not combat applicable for whatever reason, but it's pretty clear that it is given Servants are supposed to be immune to normal weapons due to it.

 

[Bernkastelll]

Spirit Form is usually seen as not combat applicable for whatever reason, but it's pretty clear that it is given Servants are supposed to be immune to normal weapons due to it.

Well, yeah, normal weapons cannot affect incorporeal/intangible beings, but thats not invulnerability

 

[LordGinSama]

Seems like Limited Intang, but that kinda creates inconsistencies given that Servant's use their Ethereal forms for that purpose.

 

[The_Smashor]

Spirit Form is usually seen as not combat applicable for whatever reason, but it's pretty clear that it is given Servants are supposed to be immune to normal weapons due to it.

Wait, so servants don't go into spirit form in combat?

Because I remember a versus thread where an Archer (specifically Emiya) running away in spirit form being the main wincon.

 

[Hl3_or_bust]

Well, yeah, normal weapons cannot affect incorporeal/intangible beings, but thats not invulnerability

yes.

Hence why I said I agree with the OP in regards to the removal of Invulnerability.