Seriously questioning the writer tier

[Read_this_post]

I dont mean to bring up screwattack but in this brief part of this video we see the writer showing very clear limitations. So why is he tier 0 (or even 1-A)

 

[Dark649]

A similar thing happened with the One Above All.

 

[DarkNeon1994]

I'm gonna.....following this thread.....

 

[Read_this_post]

@dark649 I know. The toaa thread was recently closed due to the whole revision. but this thread could still be some use

 

[Magi_Hussie]

I'm going to leave these images here:


The Writer isn't the true creator of everything in DC since he is merely a Demiurge and just a subordinate of the Presence.


Michael is a Demiurge too but some of you guys already knew that.


Very self-explanatory, moving on.


The Presence is heavily implied to be above the Monitor-Mind and the Source (well, that was kind of obvious tho). Also, these 2 beings are just aspects of the Presence.


As a matter of fact, everyone is an aspect of the Presence.


Nobody is above the Presence, especially not the Monitor-Mind and the Writer.


There is a difference between not being able to kill someone and not being able to do anything to stop someone. If it was the latter being applied in this case, then yes, the Presence would not be considered omnipotent but since it was the former, the Presence is still Omnipotent and here's why. The Presence allowed the Great Evil Beast to merge within him, keep in note that the GEB is just an aspect of the Presence and him merging with him will not affect the Presence's status of being omnipotent.


"You are not the father!"


Lucifer killing someone who is clearly not his father is further disproven by a reliable source.


You tell them Lucifer, he knows & his well-aware that his father (the Presence) is still alive & planned his "death" and for everything else for that matter. I mean, everyone knows you can't permanently kill omnipotents silly.

 

[Read_this_post]

ummm

 

[John_Werner]

Conclusion: Tier 0/high 1A for The Presence and 1A for The Writer

 

[Magi_Hussie]

That should be enough evidence for Tier 0 The Presence, so time to relax for now and wait for new replies.

 

[Read_this_post]

 

[ZacharyGrossman273]

I have a bad feeling about this

 

[Read_this_post]

Dont worry. I summoned somebody from my legion.


Ok im technically a part of his legion but you get what i mean

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

The writer isn't getting downgraded. This has long been addressed numerous times. He wrote his own death, and the whole story with the writer was just a story the writer was writing. The comic ends by zooming out and showing it was all a script on a computer screen.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

Just throwing my two cents here:

1. Doesn't Grant Morrison describe himself as a "Demiurgic" power because there are Writers other than himself who created the characters he did not? If I recall correctly he even jokes about how "He would have no life" if he had really created everything. I don't see a reason to assume he is subordinated to the Presence, especially when Yahweh isn't mentioned anywhere in that scan

2. Pretty sure Grant Morrison is describing the Monitor-Mind in this scan, not the Presence ("Non-dual Monitor-Mind")

 

[Kepekley23]

1 would still mean that Grant Morrison isn't Tier 0. He is just an aspect of the true writer, who also wrote him.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

Yeah I am aware of that, I was just addressing that specific scan.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

The Writer as a concept is Tier 0. Grant Morrison can be view as more of an individual author avatar, and was still fictional to the actual writer writing the story.

 

[PsychoWarper]

What about The Overvoid? Isnt it stronger then The Presence?

 

[Wokistan]

Overvoid is the current high 1-A, and is a representation of the paper the comics are printed on.

 

[PsychoWarper]

I know but The Overvoid is considered stronger then The Presence so The Presence couldnt be 0.

 

[Magi_Hussie]

@Ultima

"1. Doesn't Grant Morrison describe himself as a "Demiurgic" power because there are Writers other than himself who created the characters he did not? If I recall correctly he even jokes about how "He would have no life" if he had really created everything. I don't see a reason to assume he is subordinated to the Presence, especially when Yahweh isn't mentioned anywhere in that scan"

Yes, as stated in the 1st scan I provided and "subordination to the Supreme being" is the definition of Demiurge, which in this case, the Writer is a subordinate to the Presence.

"2. Pretty sure Grant Morrison is describing the Monitor-Mind in this scan, not the Presence ("Non-dual Monitor-Mind")"

Never claimed GM was describing the Presence as "Non-dual Monitor-Mind" though.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

What makes you think the first scan is referring to the Presence, rather than "the Writer" as a collective concept of which Grant is an avatar? Or even another Writer?

The Presence isn't even mentioned in it, this is an assumption pulled out of nowhere, Grant is describing himself as a Demiurge because he is writing and controlling the comic and its characters but didn't create them, another Writer did.

 

[Magi_Hussie]

@Ultima The thing is, the Writer is not the true creator who created everyone and he even mentions that "someone else" created them.

 

[Wokistan]

Someone else in this case being another writer. Grant Morrison, even as he appears here, is jot "The Writer". He is merely an emmisary of the collective DC writer, which is what the page concerns.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

Yes, I already addressed this. In the very same comic Grant Morrison states he is but one out of many Writers, he isn't talking about the Presence when saying someone else created Animal Man, he is saying Animal Man was created by another Writer.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

It isn't talking about Presence, yeah. You are trying to force a connection between numerous comics set decades apart.

 

[Magi_Hussie]

@Ultima

Even though that may be true, considering him of being above the Presence lacks evidence as the sources regarding Richard, J.M., and statement from the person the Spectre was happening a conversation with are just "all aspects of God" (the Presence) contradicts it.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Presence is fiction.

Writer is the one writing the fiction.

The Presence was shaped by the minds of mortals throughout creation, and will eventually return to the primordial void from which all creation springs.

Said void is the page in which the writer draws the comic.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

Statements regarding a God which isn't even the Presence (You are free to correct me here) holding everything as an aspect of itself are irrelevant here. Grant Morrison himself states that the Writer is the force which drew all of DC into the blank paper that is the Monitor-Mind, and even then everything being an aspect of the Presence is already taken into account, and it changed nothing other than making him a higher degree of 1-A.

J.M's statements also mean nothing when they don't fit with the Verse's cosmology, and Michael has 0 to do with this.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I don't think this will go anywher.

 

[Antvasima]

I agree with Matthew and Ultima. We should probably close this thread.

 

[Udlmaster]

Wouldn't this be massive Reality Fiction Interaction ?

"Firstly, no matter what the author's intentions are, fiction and reality can never fully interact. The real world, and real people can be simulated within fiction, but they will still be fictional representations and characters. As such, no fictional character can be responsible for the creation of "The real world"."

The Writer by default is this.

If you then say that he is a concept embodied by the current writer, then that means that the Writer is then a tool which is used, which lowers his tier as he's not in control.

And then we have the same issue, as this too relies on Reality Fiction interaction.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

No. It's not the literal DC writers in real life. It's a representation of them in the story.

The page itself explains that quite clearly.

@Ant

Yes, that'd be good.

 

[Wokistan]

The RFI page even says we made an exception for the writer already.

 

[Udlmaster]

No. It's not the literal DC writers in real life. It's a representation of them in the story.
The page itself explains that quite clearly.

But if it's a representation, why do we consider them to be competely transcendant of the verse?

"Thirdly, Author Avatars do not equate tier 0 boundlessness, and characters beating/killing their authors are not quantifiable nor meaningful feats. For instance, while The Lord of Nightmares beat her writer with a shovel, said "writer" was still a fictional character, and in no way, shape or form can LoN affect real people, or actually defeat her real world writer. Similarly, no one should look at real life humans as a "tier 0 species", simply because we can write stories."

They have no feats besides changing the death from Animal Man and giving Animal Man his comic, but this comes under Reality Fiction interaction, so the entire comic is dismissed as the Writer takes Animal man to the real world and even gives him a comic issue.

Also, I know it's on the page, I'm arguing that it shouldn't be on there.

 

[Wokistan]

Because the old DC tier 0, Monitor-Mind The Overvoid, was explicitly said to have been drawn on against it's will by a higher being. Since overmonitor is the paper, this higher being is blatantly the writer. Basically, the writer as a part of DC's cosmology is too much of a thing for us to ignore, as DC cosmology gets kinda weird if we dismiss it as RFI, and as such it got an exception.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

Pretty sure there is a certain point where the Comic zooms out and reveals that it is being controlled by a Writer, who himself is controlled by a Writer, who is controlled by another Writer ad-infinitum. They make it pretty clear nothing is actually "real" and everything is still a comic even after Grant takes Animal Man to the Real World.

The Writer has feats, Grant Morrison states that it is the higher being who drew all of DC into the Blank Paper that is the Monitor-Mind, as I already said above.

 

[Udlmaster]

Pretty sure there is a certain point where the Comic zooms out and reveals that it is being controlled by a Writer, who himself is controlled by a Writer, who is controlled by another Writer ad-infinitum. They make it pretty clear nothing is actually "real" and everything is still a comic even after Grant takes him to the Real World.
The Writer has feats, Grant Morrison states that it is the force which drew all of DC into the Blank Paper that is the Monitor-Mind, as I already said above.

However, he himself has called himself Non-Omnipotent.

Then, also, if there's an infinite Number of Writers above another, then would that still not be High 1-A in itself? As there will always another Higher Writer?

And if it were to have drawn on the Blank Paper, then that would mean that something existed either at the same time as it, or before it, which would then be a contradiction of Omnipotent.

 

[Magi_Hussie]

@Matthew

The Writer is considered to be a fictional character in DC Comics too, you can't make that argument or otherwise, it's a Reality Fiction Interaction at this point which would disprove his Omnipotent status further. Also, see @Udlmaster's comment.

@Ultima

It's rather the opposite and everyone is considered as an aspect of the Presence actually has a lot of relevance here for his tier being Tier 0. Also yes, it would fit the Verse's cosmology and characters like Lucifer is proof of that in the last scan I provided.

 

[Darkmon_cns]

Can this thread just be closed? It's clear the the writer isn't being downgraded and the tier 0 is being revised right now.

 

[Magi_Hussie]

@Darkmon No reason to be impatient over a discussion.