Monster Hunter: World of "Bro what"

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

I keep forgetting that exists

anyways on the Tempered statement, Rajang, Deviljho and Raging Brachydios all still have green scoutflies, so that pretty blatantly contradicts the idea it's something that applies to anything as strong as an Elder Dragon

I still think that was more so an oversight on their part but the Tempered Monsters do all trigger the Blue Response like Elder Dragons do and the Arch-Tempered Monsters are all blatantly lumped together with the fact that they're stated far superior to the Tempered Monsters and considering that there's Arch-Tempered Xeno'jiiva and Zorah Magdoros, that paints a pretty clear picture on where the Arch-Tempered Monsters sit in the totem pole. Not like we don't have Subspecies for Monsters that get that strong like Ruiner Nergigante absolutely bodying Shara Ishvalda after both of them had just survived getting throttled by a Post-Xeno'jiiva Fight Sapphire Star.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Oh hey, the Diablos' Kinship Attack Calc got accepted by ArmorChompy.

 

[DMUA]

Well, one is the actual game inofitself, the other is a guidebook statement that's contradicted by what the material is showing, so one takes priority over the other. I can't imagine they would have gone through the entire process of rendering everything and never think "wait, monsters on the level of elder dragons should have blue scoutflies" and patched that in, if that's really concretely how it was supposed to work.

Ruiner Nergigante had a lot of time to recover (And monsters do have Low-Mid regeneration), and Shara was basically half dead before Ruiner came in to just rip out their neck and put them down for good... Not that I'm sure how that really relates to Tempered or Arch-Tempered monsters (And is more something on the topic of variants being substantially stronger than normal) but eh

 

[DMUA]

Oh hey, the Diablos' Kinship Attack Calc got accepted by ArmorChompy.

That is something else, but there is the angle of Kinship attacks requiring a hunter specifically to activate them and we are kind of getting off track on the topic of this one, I would prefer if the changes were just resolved and made, and we just save this and anything that may come with it for another thread

Like, the Kirin scaling, wherever the 7-A calc is and if they should scale to Kushala, or the Fatalis feat (If nothing else, I'd prefer it only scale to White Fatalis and whoever is equitable to them, on account of how much stronger variants can be compared to their normal forms, but I think it should just be gotten rid of/be a possibly rating instead of a solid one)

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

That is something else, but there is the angle of Kinship attacks requiring a hunter specifically to activate them and we are kind of getting off track on the topic of this one, I would prefer if the changes were just resolved and made, and we just save this and anything that may come with it for another thread

Yeah, let's finish this first.

Like, the Kirin scaling, wherever the 7-A calc is and if they should scale to Kushala, or the Fatalis feat (If nothing else, I'd prefer it only scale to White Fatalis and whoever is equitable to them, on account of how much stronger variants can be compared to their normal forms, but I think it should just be gotten rid of/be a possibly rating instead of a solid one)

Kirin being 7-A makes sense but the Fatalis is staying, I don't care if it's only White Fatalis who scales to it but it's staying because literally ******* see the Moon get forced into a Solar Eclipse, the fact that a storm then shows up AFTER the Solar Eclipse was already caused is inconsequential.

 

[Sigilavox]

Here are my takes, for what it's worth:

• Barroth and other low-tier monsters should not scale to Lagiacrus. I agree with this.
• Gore, Shagaru, and Kirin should not scale to Kushala Daora. I agree with this.
• Zorah and Dalamadur should not be High 6-A. I agree with this.
• Fatalis and Crimson Fatalis should not scale to White Fatalis. I agree with this.
• White Fatalis should not be 5-A. I agree with this, but don't really feel that strongly one way or the other.
• I have absolutely no opinion on speed stuff.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

• White Fatalis should not be 5-A. I agree with this, but don't really feel that strongly one way or the other.

I agreed with pretty much everything you said up until this. I will die on this hill before ever letting a ******* blatant ass Solar Eclipse Creation be dismissed like 5-C Roshi was for the longest time.

 

[Sigilavox]

I agreed with pretty much everything you said up until this. I will die on this hill before ever letting a ******* blatant ass Solar Eclipse Creation be dismissed like 5-C Roshi was for the longest time.

Preface: No hard feelings, and I'm really just fine either way given that it's just a god-of-all-monsters White Fatalis thing.

Nothing against WF in particular; I just don't see why causing a solar eclipse necessitates attack potency. In the realm of all fiction and media, a given character who can snap his fingers and cause the eclipse to happen within seconds doesn't necessarily punch so hard he can shatter a planet five times over, or psychically crush a person with as much force or energy. Furthermore, this genuinely has zero impact on how White Fatalis fights and isn't even in flavor with its abilities like Kushala's wind or Crimson's sky fireballs.

 

[Sir_Ovens]

Are there really no better calcs that scale to the god tiers?

 

[Sigilavox]

Are there really no better calcs that scale to the god tiers?

I mean, in terms of limit-breaking ultimate attacks from the god-tiers, the Sapphire of the Emperor shakes out to around 3 kilotons based on the rocks it destroys in Area 3, and Fatalis's "Burning Fire" is Town level at best... so no, at least as far as recent ones go. Escaton Judgement is probably even lower.

As far as old things go, Dire Miralis is said to have "boiled" a sea over an unknown period of time, though the actual Tainted Sea itself is really more of a bay and if it really was boiling the entire sea, it wouldn't be a perfectly un-bubbly pool of red dye. It more likely warmed it to the point where other animals died from overheating or vacated the area. Old-world Fatalis and Alatreon have nothing. One could argue that Crimson Fatalis causes a volcano to erupt, I guess, but that only causes fireballs to fall, and it's more like an ability and not translatable to its own breath or strength. And we don't really know the size of the volcano, anyways. Disufiroa turns the sky red, but I don't think that can even be calculated, plus it really could just be as simple as kicking up particulates to change the sky's color.

Plainly speaking, what we are currently using for Kushala Daora and Zorah Magdaros utterly dwarf anything a Black Dragon-adjacent monster has ever shown, outside of this eclipse business for the single strongest among them; and given how the series treats its scale, I really doubt we'll get higher from them in the future unless we get a literal statement that they could "explode the planet in a single breath" or something.

 

[Sigilavox]

The main reason I'm okay with the Dalamadur feat is because it just directly says they're from a star instead of "it is rumored" or "it is said", and that fact isn't necessarily contradicted by what we see. There's not anything that suggests it can't be a chunk of metal pulled from a dying star (outside of the blue energy, but that could just be a representation of using it's power in general), and it is only a piece, so it's not like they're completely tearing apart a distant star and launching everything at a given hunter

To clarify things a bit, the issue with that statement is that the original Japanese description does not explicitly state it was specifically from a star but uses a general term for celestial bodies that can mean star but can also refer to a planet. Given that both are theoretically possible, shouldn't we avoid automatically assuming the "high end"? There isn't anything that suggests it can't be a chunk of metal pulled from a distant dying star, but there also isn't anything that suggests that it wasn't pulled from a planet, or even a meteoroid from far closer.

 

[DMUA]

I know the original blog mentions it has a sun motif going on (not that I quite see it myself), and ultimately context is what makes or breaks these types of descriptions

The name of "shattered omen" doesn't really seem like "yeah this chunk of metal is just from a nearby planet" (and "this meteorite is a piece of a meteorite" doesn't really make much sense, either), so I don't see why we should explicitly reject what the translation is stating

Side note, I do actually wonder if White Fatalis' eclipse does actually last past their death, every video I've tried to look up just focused on their body directly so they can carve as quick as possible

Probably will just drop trying to downgrade that entirely if there is no confirmation or it does indeed last past their death, and just go ahead and make the changes (outside the Dalamadur speed upgrade since that's now up in the air)

 

[Sigilavox]

Yeah, I'm pretty sure it lasts, since the sky doesn't really change color or lose its purple/blue energy in the videos I can see.

 

[DMUA]

Thinking about it, solar eclipses IRL only last around 7 minutes, so it would also have to imply that White Fatalis is, mid fight, focusing incredibly hard on the moon to keep it in place but that's ultimately a nitpick and not a genuinely compelling argument to throw the thing into further question, maybe the hunter just canonically kills them in 5 or so, who can say

Either way

• Mess with the justifications of more lower end High 8-C monsters
• Justify Kirin's speed rating properly, downgrade them to Low 7-B (or 7-A if I find whatever calc provided that)
• Downgrade Gore Magala to High 8-C+, honestly don't entirely know what to do with Shagaru Magala, probably just leave them at 6-C for now (even if Kushala is treated as a big threat that you spend awhile trying to avoid directly fighting in 4U, meanwhile Shagaru was an immediate "go kill it")
• Downgrade Dalamadur and Zorah to just 6-B (or the new calc is Low 6-B, I remember hearing)

I'll do all that tommorow provided there aren't any objections (and possibly add the MFTL+ upgrades)

Downgrading White Fatalis seems like it's been rejected for the most part, which does bring up the discussion that Black Dragons in general likely shouldn't scale to White Fatalis, as variants have generally been shown to be much stronger than their normal versions (particular examples of note being Silver Rathalos and Gold Rathian being comparable to Elder Dragons, Ebony Odogaron killing normal Odogaron with one solid blow, Ruiner Nergigante outright killing Shara Ishvalda after fighting the hunter not too long beforehand, Raging Brachydios being consistently fought alongside Furious Rajang, etc), and that should probably be discussed properly before I just go ahead and change it

 

[JoshSSJGod]

Thinking about it, solar eclipses IRL only last around 7 minutes, so it would also have to imply that White Fatalis is, mid fight, focusing incredibly hard on the moon to keep it in place but that's ultimately a nitpick and not a genuinely compelling argument to throw the thing into further question, maybe the hunter just canonically kills them in 5 or so, who can say

Either way

• Mess with the justifications of more lower end High 8-C monsters
• Justify Kirin's speed rating properly, downgrade them to Low 7-B (or 7-A if I find whatever calc provided that)
• Downgrade Gore Magala to High 8-C+, honestly don't entirely know what to do with Shagaru Magala, probably just leave them at 6-C for now (even if Kushala is treated as a big threat that you spend awhile trying to avoid directly fighting in 4U, meanwhile Shagaru was an immediate "go kill it")
• Downgrade Dalamadur and Zorah to just 6-B (or the new calc is Low 6-B, I remember hearing)

I'll do all that tommorow provided there aren't any objections (and possibly add the MFTL+ upgrades)

You desire electric pony calc?

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Thinking about it, solar eclipses IRL only last around 7 minutes, so it would also have to imply that White Fatalis is, mid fight, focusing incredibly hard on the moon to keep it in place but that's ultimately a nitpick and not a genuinely compelling argument to throw the thing into further question, maybe the hunter just canonically kills them in 5 or so, who can say

Either way

• Mess with the justifications of more lower end High 8-C monsters
• Justify Kirin's speed rating properly, downgrade them to Low 7-B (or 7-A if I find whatever calc provided that)
• Downgrade Gore Magala to High 8-C+, honestly don't entirely know what to do with Shagaru Magala, probably just leave them at 6-C for now (even if Kushala is treated as a big threat that you spend awhile trying to avoid directly fighting in 4U, meanwhile Shagaru was an immediate "go kill it")
• Downgrade Dalamadur and Zorah to just 6-B (or the new calc is Low 6-B, I remember hearing)

I'll do all that tommorow provided there aren't any objections (and possibly add the MFTL+ upgrades)

Downgrading White Fatalis seems like it's been rejected for the most part, which does bring up the discussion that Black Dragons in general likely shouldn't scale to White Fatalis, as variants have generally been shown to be much stronger than their normal versions (particular examples of note being Silver Rathalos and Gold Rathian being comparable to Elder Dragons, Ebony Odogaron killing normal Odogaron with one solid blow, Ruiner Nergigante outright killing Shara Ishvalda after fighting the hunter not too long beforehand, Raging Brachydios being consistently fought alongside Furious Rajang, etc), and that should probably be discussed properly before I just go ahead and change it

Tbf, that Scarred Kushala Daora at the end of 4U is Built Different seeing as it literally got nuked by a Giant Dragon Element Cannon and it just got back up and flew away.

 

[The_Axiom_of_Virgo]

You desire electric pony calc?

THANK YOU!

We should really link it to the verse page if Kirin becomes 7-A.

 

[DMUA]

You desire electric pony calc?

I could steal one of Junko's my little pony memes

And considering I am deranged enough to do so, here you go

 

[DMUA]

That said, this also uses a bunch of old standards (cloud height is mostly fine but the radius is immense compared to what can be reasonably assumed given the conditions of the coral Highlands being generally hazy, even if the sky is ironically a bit clearer when a Kirin makes a storm from being there)

 

[Sigilavox]

The Zorah calc has been levelled out at Low 6-B. Thank you, @DMUA!

 

[Sigilavox]

You desire electric pony calc?

That calculation uses the old horizon calculator, which is not used anymore according to current wiki horizon standards, which are generally far lower than the horizon distance used. It probably should be redone with modern standards.

That said, this also uses a bunch of old standards (cloud height is mostly fine but the radius is immense compared to what can be reasonably assumed given the conditions of the coral Highlands being generally hazy, even if the sky is ironically a bit clearer when a Kirin makes a storm from being there)

Indeed, as discussed in the Zorah calc comments, the most appropriate range for Coral Highlands radius should be 10 km.

CAPE Low-end: 7.20322584852e15 Joules = 1.72 Megatons = Low 7-B Small City level
CAPE High-end: 1.15251613576e16 Joules =2.75 Megatons = Low 7-B Small City level

 

[Sigilavox]

Downgrade Dalamadur and Zorah to just 6-B (or the new calc is Low 6-B, I remember hearing)

Don't forget that Xeno'jiiva scales to Zorah's feat, so you may as well change that too.

 

[DMUA]

Yeah, that is what I was thinking

That said, just opening all the tabs I'd need to go through to make just the changes that have been worked out is... painful, but I'll live

Anyways I'll go through the stuff I mentioned now

 

[DMUA]

Okay, just made the edits I was talking about, feel free to correct any errors I made

Assuming I didn't screw anything up, I'll just wait for opinions on this

Downgrading White Fatalis seems like it's been rejected for the most part, which does bring up the discussion that Black Dragons in general likely shouldn't scale to White Fatalis, as variants have generally been shown to be much stronger than their normal versions (particular examples of note being Silver Rathalos and Gold Rathian being comparable to Elder Dragons, Ebony Odogaron killing normal Odogaron with one solid blow, Ruiner Nergigante outright killing Shara Ishvalda after fighting the hunter not too long beforehand, Raging Brachydios being consistently fought alongside Furious Rajang, etc), and that should probably be discussed properly before I just go ahead and change it

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

High 6-C Kushala Calc was accepted, we should start getting that added to to all of them now as well.

 

[DMUA]

I did consider it but that was so many tabs I felt like my PC was about to crash (And there is also the Diablos calc to consider so maybe later for that)

(Or just apply it I'm not really going to stop you if you wanted to go ahead and do it)

 

[Sigilavox]

High 6-C Kushala Calc was accepted, we should start getting that added to to all of them now as well.

Shouldn't that be a separate CRT?

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Shouldn't that be a separate CRT?

More than likely, just wanted to make sure everyone is aware of it.

 

[The_Axiom_of_Virgo]

More than likely, just wanted to make sure everyone is aware of it.

Hopefully it sticks, I don't want my standard EDs to yoyo in tiers (they started at Low 7-B to 7-A then got upgraded to Low 6-B then got downgraded to 6-C and now are likely going to be High 6-C).

At least tier 7/6 MH remains consistent.

 

[GimmyJibbsJr]

I got notifications of a bunch of monster hunter profiles being updated and I come back to see that Dala has MFTL+ attack speed lmao

Probably a bit late for my two cents but I am pretty much fine with all the changes, although I find Kirin's change/downgrade a tad iffy since iirc it was referred to as being on the same level as other Elder Dragons, will try to find where the statement was for that though since I don't remember clearly where it was due to having been away for so long

Other than that, hoping everyone here is doing well

EDIT: Found the text about Kirin being considered equal to other EDs. I am pretty sure this is legit since this is all compiled information from the games and various guide/data books and official material that was pulled together by BannedLagiacrus over on the Monster Hunter wiki

 

[Sigilavox]

EDIT: Found the text about Kirin being considered equal to other EDs. I am pretty sure this is legit since this is all compiled information from the games and various guide/data books and official material that was pulled together by BannedLagiacrus over on the Monster Hunter wiki

I think it would be better to use BannedLagiacrus's more updated twitter compilation on Kirin made 4 years later, which doesn't mention a statement of equivalence, simply that the reason for calling it an Elder Dragon is that its powers and nature are mysterious. There is a statement that it can turn sunny skies to rolling storms in seconds, though, which could maybe be calculated, though it's a pretty vague piece on its own.

Other than that, hoping everyone here is doing well.

Thanks! Hope you're doing well as well.

 

[GimmyJibbsJr]

I think it would be better to use BannedLagiacrus's more updated twitter compilation on Kirin made 4 years later, which doesn't mention a statement of equivalence, simply that the reason for calling it an Elder Dragon is that its powers and nature are mysterious. There is a statement that it can turn sunny skies to rolling storms in seconds, though, which could maybe be calculated, though it's a pretty vague piece on its own.

Oh dang I had no idea he had a twitter lmao

 

[GimmyJibbsJr]

Oh and also important thing I found

In this speedrun of the White Fatalis fight in MHGU, we see the eclipse lasting after the monster dies. I know it's in a different game from the one where we see the eclipse happening, but still probably relevant I guess since I think when I was skimming through this thread I saw the question of whether or not the eclipse persists come up.

 

[DMUA]

EDIT: Found the text about Kirin being considered equal to other EDs. I am pretty sure this is legit since this is all compiled information from the games and various guide/data books and official material that was pulled together by BannedLagiacrus over on the Monster Hunter wiki

it does later say they're considered the weakest Elder Dragon (and they still get stomped by Rajang, and, as I recently realized, Kushala does actually put up a solid fight in Furious Rajang's ecology, so like, getting stomped by a weaker version of something that an Elder Dragon can hold their own against isn't very equal)

Thoughts on the White Fatalis scaling (since it does seem you are also disagreeing with an outright downgrade there)

 

[GimmyJibbsJr]

I suppose that's fair for Kirin, then. I do recall there was a cutscene in one of the games where Kirin was actually able to stagger Rajang with lightning, but I doubt that'll make much of a difference here.

Does Banned Lagiacrus have a White Fatalis thread on Twitter with updated information that could possibly help us out here? Anyway, I do know that all three of the Fatalis, Alatreon and Dire Miralis share the classification of "Dangerous First-Class Monster", distinctly marking them as the five strongest monsters of the franchise, but without a distinct order. I don't think it's at all clear if any are stronger than the others, although I think it's popular opinion amongst fans that White Fatalis is the strongest (Although really White Fatalis is just older than the others). So without any clear way of deducing which of the five is strongest, or if White Fatalis specifically is so much more powerful than the others for whatever reason, I don't think we should halt the scaling

Although a general downgrade could be on the table if WF's moon feat is debunked or a lower result is found more accurate for AP/Durability.

Also another thing is that, I don't know if it's gonna be at all useful here, but I did slap together another speed calc for White Fatalis and Crimson Fatalis ages ago. Again, IDK if it'll be at all useful, but I figured I'd mention it again since we're doing revisions of the verse and whatnot

 

[GimmyJibbsJr]

Also something I'm curious about, is it still just not possible for us to calculate Ceadeus creating earthquakes casually by rubbing the seafloor, ones so great they threaten to sink islands and can shake the entire Moga region according to the Ceadeus Twitter Thread? I think the key thing that was holding back the potential for a calc here was just the lack of knowledge on how large the Moga region is

Best I could find was largely in the cinematic trailers for Tri/3U where a Rathalos was flying over the main island, showing off a bunch of mountains, but I don't think that encompasses the entirety of Moga Island, and still doesn't cover the other locales/territories within the Moga region like the Volcano, flooded forest and desert area as I believe those are also in the general Moga region

 

[DMUA]

It probably wouldn't exceed High 6-C (which is what the Kushala calc got readjusted to)

 

[DMUA]

So without any clear way of deducing which of the five is strongest, or if White Fatalis specifically is so much more powerful than the others for whatever

Isn't White Fatalis fought last alongside the sequence of Black Dragons (and I know Fatalis comes after Alaetron in Iceborne and is generally way easier, but), and in general, Variants have shown to be notably stronger than their normal versions even with one chain of difference, like with Ebony Odogaron almost immediately killing normal Odogaron, or Fulgur Anjanath, who can fight with Diablos, Tigrex and Narcacuga just fine, while normal Anjanath gets completely stomped by Rathalos (this of course avoiding any extreme examples like Silver Rathalos, Gold Rathian or generally Deviants who jump straight to the level of Elder Dragons)

 

[JoshSSJGod]

Isn't White Fatalis fought last alongside the sequence of Black Dragons (and I know Fatalis comes after Alaetron in Iceborne and is generally way easier, but), and in general, Variants have shown to be notably stronger than their normal versions even with one chain of difference, like with Ebony Odogaron almost immediately killing normal Odogaron, or Fulgur Anjanath, who can fight with Diablos, Tigrex and Narcacuga just fine, while normal Anjanath gets completely stomped by Rathalos (this of course avoiding any extreme examples like Silver Rathalos, Gold Rathian or generally Deviants who jump straight to the level of Elder Dragons)

Depends on the game, though I'll note that White Fatalis is not classified a variant or a subspecies or a Deviant nor anything like Crimson Fatalis so we can't exactly apply the "alternate forms are always stronger" idea and even if we do the alternate versions of monsters are not exactly always stronger than the original, for example the colour swap versions as seen with the two Diablos who can beat one another and Fulgar Anjanath isn't actually stronger considering normal Anjanath has the same turf war with Diablos.

 

[GimmyJibbsJr]

It's more of a case by case basis, I think. Some subspecies and variants are stronger, like Raging Brachy, Gold Rathian, Silver Rathalos and Hellblade Glavenus. But there are others as Josh noted that are just the same in power as far as we can tell, so IDK if we should just blanket all subspecies as, by default, stronger than the main species.