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Scott Pilgrim feat discussion

Alright then. Is there anyone you can contact to hopefully get this thread moving along quicker? I'd like to continue with my bigger revisions.
 
Gideon messing with Scott's memories makes some feats and scaling a little messy, but this should be valid.

I'd agree with giving Scott outright 7-C tiering but I'd also be ok with giving him a likely 7-C rating (just to be safe)
 
I think its quite cut and dry that the feat (within the comic continuity) was a fabricated memory.

In Volume 6 they specifically show a panel of what actually happened during the Simon Lee "fight" and it visually shows how Simon was just a shy wimpy guy who got decked in the face (like Kim implies), and not an actual super-villain who was launched into the sky like Scott seemed to believe.
The only one who is trust-worthy enough about this memory should be Kim anyway (and maybe Simon but we never see him again) as she was the only one with untampered memories who was present when it happened. The two versions of the event even show Simon looking completely different so we know the two memories aren't compatible.

Scott obviously has very faulty high school memories that Gideon specifically manipulated to have him not be aware of his own flaws and to have a rose-tinted view of things that gave him an ego. So the idea that Scott has a false memory of kicking Simon that hard as some kind of heroic gesture to save his girlfriend, instead of punching some wimpy kid out of jealousy (which Kim implies), would perfectly check out as another one of his ego-boosting false memories.

Not to mention how the entire scene this is revealed in, and Scott's character development in volume 6, would make absolutely no sense if Kim's version of the events wasn't the right one. This is a scene where Scott is supposed to start realising that his memories are flawed ego-centric versions of what actually happened, which is a huge plot point in volume 6. It would make absolutely no sense to have Kim be the one who is lying/misremembering the event in this scene, as not only would it be very out-of-character for her, but it wouldn't add up with the emotional aspect of the scene either.
In fact, this exact conversation over Scott's memory of Simon Lee is exactly what triggers Scott fighting NegaScott (it literally happens on the next page); something that Kim frames as Scott battling his urge to forget his own mistakes (such as forgetting he was the aggressor in the Simon Lee memory) and Scott wins by realizing he can't ignore his own flaws anymore, leading him to finally remember things correctly (basically confirming his previously-stated version of the memory was false). So how the hell would it make sense for Kim's version of events to be the false version? Everything about this scene makes it obvious that Scott is the one misremembering things. The scene simply wouldn't make sense otherwise.

There's also other stuff in other volumes that foreshadow that Scott's memory is false. For example:
1. In volume 3, Scott remembers Simon as wearing a purple suit during their fight when no other version of the memory backs this up (even Scott's other ones).
2. In volume 3, Ramona asks Kim about Simon Lee after hearing Scott's version of the story and Kim's version downplays it a lot, much to Ramona's confusion. She even mentions that she and Simon were dating (consensually) as opposed to Scott's version where Simon had to kidnap her in order to get with her.
3. A movie scene Lucas Lee is in during Volume 2 has the exact same set-up/setting as Scott's version of the memory, implying he at least partially got his jumbled-up memory from it rather than real life.
Etc. Etc. The SP wiki page for Simon Lee just by itself is a treasure trove of these little details that absolutely back up Scott's memory being unreliable at best.
 
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Though I will say the movie version of the event seems to be FAR more reliable as nothing directly contradicts it. But that's a different continuity.
 
LoudCloud said:
I think its quite cut and dry that the feat (within the comic continuity) was a fabricated memory.

In Volume 6 they specifically show a panel of what actually happened during the Simon Lee "fight" and it visually shows how Simon was just a shy wimpy guy who got decked in the face (like Kim implies), and not an actual super-villain who was launched into the sky like Scott seemed to believe.
The only one who is trust-worthy enough about this memory should be Kim anyway (and maybe Simon but we never see him again) as she was the only one with untampered memories who was present when it happened. The two versions of the event even show Simon looking completely different so we know the two memories aren't compatible.

Scott obviously has very faulty high school memories that Gideon specifically manipulated to have him not be aware of his own flaws and to have a rose-tinted view of things that gave him an ego. So the idea that Scott has a false memory of kicking Simon that hard as some kind of heroic gesture to save his girlfriend, instead of punching some wimpy kid out of jealousy (which Kim implies), would perfectly check out as another one of his ego-boosting false memories.

Not to mention how the entire scene this is revealed in, and Scott's character development in volume 6, would make absolutely no sense if Kim's version of the events wasn't the right one. This is a scene where Scott is supposed to start realising that his memories are flawed ego-centric versions of what actually happened, which is a huge plot point in volume 6. It would make absolutely no sense to have Kim be the one who is lying/misremembering the event in this scene, as not only would it be very out-of-character for her, but it wouldn't add up with the emotional aspect of the scene either.
In fact, this exact conversation over Scott's memory of Simon Lee is exactly what triggers Scott fighting NegaScott (it literally happens on the next page); something that Kim frames as Scott battling his urge to forget his own mistakes (such as forgetting he was the aggressor in the Simon Lee memory) and Scott wins by realizing he can't ignore his own flaws anymore, leading him to finally remember things correctly (basically confirming his previously-stated version of the memory was false). So how the hell would it make sense for Kim's version of events to be the false version? Everything about this scene makes it obvious that Scott is the one misremembering things. The scene simply wouldn't make sense otherwise.

There's also other stuff in other volumes that foreshadow that Scott's memory is false. For example:
1. In volume 3, Scott remembers Simon as wearing a purple suit during their fight when no other version of the memory backs this up (even Scott's other ones).
2. In volume 3, Ramona asks Kim about Simon Lee after hearing Scott's version of the story and Kim's version downplays it a lot, much to Ramona's confusion. She even mentions that she and Simon were dating (consensually) as opposed to Scott's version where Simon had to kidnap her in order to get with her.
3. A movie scene Lucas Lee is in during Volume 2 has the exact same set-up/setting as Scott's version of the memory, implying he at least partially got his jumbled-up memory from it rather than real life.
Etc. Etc. The SP wiki page for Simon Lee just by itself is a treasure trove of these little details that absolutely back up Scott's memory being unreliable at best.
Click to expand...
With all due respect, I already addressed above that this feat has nothing to do with Simon Lee, and the likelihood of this happening at the All-Ontario Tournament instead makes far more sense since Stephen directly recalls the event. If this was referenced to have happened during Scott's high school years and/or exclusively by Kim, then your point would hold true. Please read above for more details regarding this topic we discussed prior.
 
AParticularInduvidial said:
With all due respect, I already addressed above that this feat has nothing to do with Simon Lee, and the likelihood of this happening at the All-Ontario Tournament instead makes far more sense since Stephen directly recalls the event. If this was referenced to have happened during Scott's high school years and/or exclusively by Kim, then your point would hold true. Please read above for more details regarding this topic we discussed prior.
Click to expand...
I can't seem to find the scan you show anywhere else on the internet. Where did you get it from?
 
Hmm, yeah I did some research just now and it all checks out.
I'm definitely open to the idea, as there's no direct indication that the person in question is Simon Lee (otherwise Stephen wouldn't have witnessed it).

However, I must admit I feel very awkward about using a promotional advert as the sole evidence for this. Scott is literally holding up his own comic book, and while the series is known for breaking the fourth wall, it's another thing entirely to have the characters acknowledge the release of their own comic book as a canon thing that actually happened in-universe. It would be like if we started treating those manga adverts where the characters are reading their own manga as actual canon material. It's shaky to say the least. However, since this specific franchise has multiple instances of characters acknowledging they are fictional within the main-line comics (evidenced here), I think I can allow it. For every reason I could have to argue that the scan is inconsistent within the series, there'd be an equally good argument for why the scans is consistent with the franchise's humorous and meta storytelling.

I think "possibly 7-C" is a good addition to the profile. But I'd hold back on removing the previous tiers entirely, since I'm still not sure if other people would be happy that a promotional joke ad is the sole evidence for Scott's new tier. Then again, this wiki has done far worse as far as flimsy, loose evidence is concerned...
 
Also, just wanted to point out that Scott's false recollection of Simon Lee in the mainline comics specifically includes the false memory of Scott kicking Simon away, whereas the scan provided mentions punching instead. So it very much seems the false events concerning Simon and the events discussed in that scan are two separate things.
 
AParticularInduvidial said:
Possibly 7-C is fine with me. I'm glad we could come to an agreement regarding this discussion. Should we wait for more input from mods?
Click to expand...
It would be nice to get a bit more input. Especially since using promotional material as evidence can be controversial sometimes.
But if no one offers any further input, we should eventually update the profile anyway. I've seen profiles be changed using far more questionable evidence, so it shouldn't be a huge issue on the off chance we struggle to get more input.
 
LoudCloud said:
Also, just wanted to point out that Scott's false recollection of Simon Lee in the mainline comics specifically includes the false memory of Scott kicking Simon away, whereas the scan provided mentions punching instead. So it very much seems the false events concerning Simon and the events discussed in that scan are two separate things.
Click to expand...
Good eye, I didn't even recognize that difference originally.
LoudCloud said:
It would be nice to get a bit more input. Especially since using promotional material as evidence can be controversial sometimes.
But if no one offers any further input, we should eventually update the profile anyway. I've seen profiles be changed using far more questionable evidence, so it shouldn't be a huge issue on the off chance we struggle to get more input.
Click to expand...
Got it. Should we ping anyone for this?
 
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