Scott Pilgrim tier revision

[AParticularInduvidial]

Hello all. This is my second CRT here, and today is yet another series with little attention, Scott Pilgrim (You can thank the anime trailer dropping recently for reminding me of the existence of this series).

To keep it simple, why are we scaling Scott Pilgrim and co to a calculation done by Todd Ingram (I'm aware there's an actual reason, this is just a segway into why I disagree).

Holding Back doesn't make sense.
For starters, Todd Ingram does not "hold back" his psychic powers to drop several tiers. We know this since the very beginning of volume three where it's established he's trying to kill Scott Pilgrim as quick as possible.

Second off, in the specific chapter where the feat is performed at Honest Ed's, it's said that Todd was not allowed to use his powers. This does not mean he was suppressing his powers when he couldn't hold them back anymore. If anything, in the context of the scene, we have more reason to believe he let out more of his power than he ever does since he was so emotionally overwhelmed that his brain couldn't hold his powers back (This scene shows that the psychic powers can be more potent with stronger emotions, therefore we have more reason to believe Todd wasn't holding back due to how suppressing emotions affects the mind).

When did Todd get his powers?
Another big issue I've noticed is that we have Todd Ingram using his powers to perform the moon feat, but that doesn't make sense since the whole reason he went to Vegan Academy was to learn the secrets of his people. This heavily implies he didn't even have his powers yet, therefore the feat in question was done purely through Todd's physical power.

Even if he did have his powers at this time, we have another question that plagues us. Was Todd also holding back his powers like he supposedly did at Honest Ed's? If that's the case, then when do we draw the line between Todd holding back and going all out?

What do we do?
After establishing the issue here, I have several propositions.

1) Downgrade Todd Ingram from 6-A and scale everyone to the High 8-C/8-B feat exclusively (I'm not too fond of this proposition since that would be removing a major part of Todd's character).

2) Keep Todd's current 6-A feat, but remove the High 8-C/8-B calculation from the verse's scaling (I'm overall neutral on this option since it puts major characters like Scott Pilgrim back at wall level).

3) Upgrade Scott, and later characters, to 6-A alongside Todd. This is a more controversial option since I believe Scott scaling to Todd is widely considered an outlier (as according to the calculation for Honest Ed's). It should be noted that, while Todd is the only character who went as far as to perform a feat of this calibur, there is a statement for Gideon that implies he has power comparable to Todd (Which makes sense given Gideon is intended to be the final boss of Scott's whole journey).

Discussion
That's everything for now. Feel free to discuss opinions and objections down below!

 

[Eficiente]

Well, this is pretty bad.

When did Todd get his powers?
Another big issue I've noticed is that we have Todd Ingram using his powers to perform the moon feat, but that doesn't make sense since the whole reason he went to Vegan Academy was to learn the secrets of his people. This heavily implies he didn't even have his powers yet, therefore the feat in question was done purely through Todd's physical power.

Even if he did have his powers at this time, we have another question that plagues us. Was Todd also holding back his powers like he supposedly did at Honest Ed's? If that's the case, then when do we draw the line between Todd holding back and going all out?

No, that doesn't "heavily imply" he didn't even have his powers yet, you made that up, that just means that he went to learn the secrets of his people as it says, one can absolutely already have things in relation to them before it, just not whatever those secrets are.

there is a statement for Gideon that implies he has power comparable to Todd (Which makes sense given Gideon is intended to be the final boss of Scott's whole journey).

It likewise doesn't imply that his power is comparable.

Holding Back doesn't make sense.
For starters, Todd Ingram does not "hold back" his psychic powers to drop several tiers.

The amount of tiers one may hold back against others doesn't matter when the premise of any character holding back is that their best output is tiers above those "others" they hold back against, and that the latter can't reach that power w/o scaling. When people say that it's basically an argument coming from indignation when there is nothing valid to be indignated at.

We know this since the very beginning of volume three where it's established he's trying to kill Scott Pilgrim as quick as possible.

It's less urgent and with less willingless to kill as you imply it, it's the vague desire of a young adult; it's a goal but it can absolutely be something he doesn't go about doing as competently as he could. More to it, the way the series has this things play out is akin to "casual games", with fighting and lethality, yes, but with people being respectful to rules, limitations, and partially seeing it all in a casual way.

Second off, in the specific chapter where the feat is performed at Honest Ed's, it's said that Todd was not allowed to use his powers. This does not mean he was suppressing his powers when he couldn't hold them back anymore. If anything, in the context of the scene, we have more reason to believe he let out more of his power than he ever does since he was so emotionally overwhelmed that his brain couldn't hold his powers back (This scene shows that the psychic powers can be more potent with stronger emotions, therefore we have more reason to believe Todd wasn't holding back due to how suppressing emotions affects the mind).

Not being allowed to use his powers means just that; being overwhelmed as he was means, within reason, that he failed at not using his powers as much as he was shown, as much as this was proven to be the case. Not with as much power as he has or even with "more of his power than he ever does", you made that up, because we do know that he was trying to not use his powers. If any random person tries to hold back in a fight but get so angry that they can't hold back as much as they would have do so otherwise, then yes, they may hit with some more power, but it doesn't mean that they will now go full power.

There were 3 takes that were straight up made up from their sources in this thread. You assumed too much and saw those takes as the more likely, when they weren't even likely in the first place and without recognizing alternatives.

 

[AParticularInduvidial]

Well this wasn't quite the response I was looking for.

No, that doesn't "heavily imply" he didn't even have his powers yet, you made that up, that just means that he went to learn the secrets of his people as it says, one can absolutely already have things in relation to them before it, just not whatever those secrets are.

Even going off the basis that my point was made up, can the same not be said about the assumption that Todd had his powers at the time? There is nothing that directly states or implies he had any form of power other than he was vegan. Furthermore, the text uses the word "secrets" which further suggests the knowledge in question was something Todd wasn't already aware of to begin with.

It likewise doesn't imply that his power is comparable.

I should've clarified this. My argument wasn't that Gideon was comparable to Todd Ingram, it was that he had suggestions of power that would be comparable to Todd's calculated feat per the standards of the wiki.

The amount of tiers one may hold back against others doesn't matter when the premise of any character holding back is that their best output is tiers above those "others" they hold back against, and that the latter can't reach that power w/o scaling. When people say that it's basically an argument coming from indignation when there is nothing valid to be indignated at.

I feel highlighting this specific text is incredibly dishonest to what I was pledging as a whole. Thus calling the argument "indignation" seems unnecessary to this discussion as a whole.

It's less urgent and with less willingless to kill as you imply it, it's the vague desire of a young adult; it's a goal but it can absolutely be something he doesn't go about doing as competently as he could. More to it, the way the series has this things play out is akin to "casual games", with fighting and lethality, yes, but with people being respectful to rules, limitations, and partially seeing it all in a casual way.

I'm failing to understand your point here, unfortunately. Are you saying that even with Todd clearly wanting to get the initial confrontation over with, he would still hold back enough to keep Scott alive and well? That seems entirely counterproductive to his original intentions.

Not being allowed to use his powers means just that; being overwhelmed as he was means, within reason, that he failed at not using his powers as much as he was shown, as much as this was proven to be the case. Not with as much power as he has or even with "more of his power than he ever does", you made that up, because we do know that he was trying to not use his powers. If any random person tries to hold back in a fight but get so angry that they can't hold back as much as they would have do so otherwise, then yes, they may hit with some more power, but it doesn't mean that they will now go full power.

My point was that due to the circumstances leading up to Todd unleashing his powers, his mind was being completely overwhelmed by Honest Ed's. To say that he was mentally overwhelmed to where he couldn't control his powers whilst still unconsciously holding back just enough to keep Scott alive is a massive leap. The simpler explanation to that would be that Todd unleashed his power by accident without restraining said power.

Sorry if my original thread didn't meet your expectations! Your feedback has helped however, and I can absolutely see your point of view in this discussion.

 

[Eficiente]

Even going off the basis that my point was made up, can the same not be said about the assumption that Todd had his powers at the time? There is nothing that directly states or implies he had any form of power other than he was vegan.

Being vegan is what gives him the powers. It's easier to assume that the best feat in the series was done with this extra powers that he had to have removed, the same powers that have the most destructive force shown and that make him above others. It's easier to assume that he used this powers to fly to the moon, survive in space, create that much destruction, and come back to Earth, than to say that he did all that on his own.

Furthermore, the text uses the word "secrets" which further suggests the knowledge in question was something Todd wasn't already aware of to begin with.

It doesn't suggest it, that's what a secret is, but you made up that this secret had to be those powers rather than anything else, such as his family having any secrets whatsoever a member of that family may try to get into. One doesn't get to say what those secrets are in the story, it's unknown.

I should've clarified this. My argument wasn't that Gideon was comparable to Todd Ingram, it was that he had suggestions of power that would be comparable to Todd's calculated feat per the standards of the wiki.

That doesn't make sense, if you say that "he had suggestions of power that would be comparable to Todd's calculated feat" then you are saying that "Gideon was comparable to Todd".

Every so often, "per the standards of the wiki" or so just ends up meaning someone having saw something vaguely similar elsewhere, therefore the same should apply in a case they know of, but then it lacks the merits for it or the example they saw was wrong to begin with.

I feel highlighting this specific text is incredibly dishonest to what I was pledging as a whole. Thus calling the argument "indignation" seems unnecessary to this discussion as a whole.

If you argue anything, people call argue back and call out all of it, even parts of it. With so much I had to disagree on in the thread, I may as well go over parts that could potentially imply a flawed thinking process, even if minor, and if you think that was not the case then that's ok, maybe it's not the case at all & I was wrong, but it was worth trying, because what I say doesn't come out of nowhere. I didn't call your argument "indignation", I said something that is worth saying in the discussion.

I'm failing to understand your point here, unfortunately. Are you saying that even with Todd clearly wanting to get the initial confrontation over with, he would still hold back enough to keep Scott alive and well? That seems entirely counterproductive to his original intentions.

That's an extreme. I said that your point wasn't as you portrayed it to be, first of all. I didn't say that "he would still hold back enough to keep Scott alive and well", we are not talking about it here. I said that he would be put in a context where that type of behavior would be normal if encouraged, and that his own behavior gives very little weight to "how he wants to get over with the matter" as something that gives us information, because he can go about it in many ways & still follow that.

My point was that due to the circumstances leading up to Todd unleashing his powers, his mind was being completely overwhelmed by Honest Ed's. To say that he was mentally overwhelmed to where he couldn't control his powers whilst still unconsciously holding back just enough to keep Scott alive is a massive leap. The simpler explanation to that would be that Todd unleashed his power by accident without restraining said power.

You didn't undertand the point, he wouldn't be "unconsciously" holding back, he would be consciously doing so, you assume that his mind being overwhelmed means that there is no other option but to unleash all his power, but you made up that his power is this thing that would go all out if his mind is overwhelmed. That's not a standard assumption powers have, the standard assumptions are as close to reality as possible, otherwise we're making up rules; Powers are only as powerful as they're proven to be, they're tired to one's stamina unless proven otherwise, and so on. So, again

If any random person tries to hold back in a fight but get so angry that they can't hold back as much as they would have do so otherwise, then yes, they may hit with some more power, but it doesn't mean that they will now go full power.

If one fights a kid a 0.5% of their power and for whatever reason they can't hold back as much then that's it. That info doesn't say that 100% of their power will be used, it could be 0.6%, or a bit higher, or anything. Whatever is proven to be the case, it's unquantifiable.

Todd was told to not use his powers, therefore he holds back. Todd ate something bad and uses his powers, therefore he uses as much power as it's shown, he is still consciously trying to not use his powers. His mind is overwhelmed, yes, but nobody took over his body be 100% responsible for his actions, he is trying not to do what he did, he just failed.

Your feedback has helped however, and I can absolutely see your point of view in this discussion.

Thanks for being reasonable.

 

[AParticularInduvidial]

Being vegan is what gives him the powers. It's easier to assume that the best feat in the series was done with this extra powers that he had to have removed, the same powers that have the most destructive force shown and that make him above others. It's easier to assume that he used this powers to fly to the moon, survive in space, create that much destruction, and come back to Earth, than to say that he did all that on his own.

Being vegan is the requirement, since one would naturally need to be such in order to even have the mental capacity to learn the powers (or qualify for a vegan school). If Todd realistically did have the powers in the first place, then going to vegan academy would be pointless in the story. Furthermore, he could be using telekinesis and such over physical contact, which we know he much prefers, yet he doesn't.

It doesn't suggest it, that's what a secret is, but you made up that this secret had to be those powers rather than anything else, such as his family having any secrets whatsoever a member of that family may try to get into. One doesn't get to say what those secrets are in the story, it's unknown.

I'm confused as to why you're making such an odd assumption when the more clear and logical answer is that "secrets' refers to the vegan power of his people. To further this notion, the vegan academy has the power to physically remove his powers if Todd breaks the rules (This actually further hurts the argument that simply being vegan grants you powers since Todd ate non-vegan food prior to losing his powers from the Vegan Police, and still had his powers then).

Also, why are you falling back on "made up" points when I have equally as much room to say the exact same thing for the arguments presented on the page? Your points don't really change anything I've said.

That doesn't make sense, if you say that "he had suggestions of power that would be comparable to Todd's calculated feat" then you are saying that "Gideon was comparable to Todd".
Every so often, "per the standards of the wiki" or so just ends up meaning someone having saw something vaguely similar elsewhere, therefore the same should apply in a case they know of, but then it lacks the merits for it or the example they saw was wrong to begin with.

My argument is that, assuming we compared Todd's feat to the statement made by Bryan about Gideon, they would both be in the same vein of power going off of common sense (I'm assuming nuking a continent would be comparable to a calculation that has a continental rating). furthermore, I'm not directly endorsing the use of said statement to begin with. the point was that there was a statement regarding a later ex that involved an explosion of the same caliber as we later see from Todd Ingram.

If you argue anything, people call argue back and call out all of it, even parts of it. With so much I had to disagree on in the thread, I may as well go over parts that could potentially imply a flawed thinking process, even if minor, and if you think that was not the case then that's ok, maybe it's not the case at all & I was wrong, but it was worth trying, because what I say doesn't come out of nowhere. I didn't call your argument "indignation", I said something that is worth saying in the discussion.

I understand, my apologise if my initial argument came off as such.

That's an extreme. I said that your point wasn't as you portrayed it to be, first of all. I didn't say that "he would still hold back enough to keep Scott alive and well", we are not talking about it here. I said that he would be put in a context where that type of behavior would be normal if encouraged, and that his own behavior gives very little weight to "how he wants to get over with the matter" as something that gives us information, because he can go about it in many ways & still follow that.

Sorry, your prior wording made it extremely hard to understand your full point. That still doesn't work given Todd is attempting to finish the fight with Scott as soon as possible. In actuality, there's nothing in the original novel that suggests that Todd would even want to hold back against Scott.

You didn't undertand the point, he wouldn't be "unconsciously" holding back, he would be consciously doing so, you assume that his mind being overwhelmed means that there is no other option but to unleash all his power, but you made up that his power is this thing that would go all out if his mind is overwhelmed. That's not a standard assumption powers have, the standard assumptions are as close to reality as possible, otherwise we're making up rules; Powers are only as powerful as they're proven to be, they're tired to one's stamina unless proven otherwise, and so on. So, again

This point fundamentally misunderstands the premise behind the Vegan Powers. To begin with, the vegan powers are innately tied to the mind, as is established early on in Volume Three. Therefore, the implication is that the powers are tied to your mental fortitude and thinking ability. For this reason, my original argument made the point that Todd, whilst he was mentally overwhelmed, would not have the conscious ability to restrain himself when his whole psyche is being assualted; Or to word it from a more common perspective, the last thing Todd would be worried about is if he is holding back his power enough to prevent Scott from dying, which I find highly illogical.

Todd was told to not use his powers, therefore he holds back. Todd ate something bad and uses his powers, therefore he uses as much power as it's shown, he is still consciously trying to not use his powers. His mind is overwhelmed, yes, but nobody took over his body be 100% responsible for his actions, he is trying not to do what he did, he just failed.

Todd was told to not use his powers, therefore he doesn't use them. After the point of no return, he has no reason not to hold back, which is implied more by the fact he wasn't thinking logically whilst in Honest Ed's. Him "trying not to do what he did" gets thrown out the window for reasons already established.
Also, him eating non-vegan products being the reason he can't use his powers to the fullest extent is never established in the story, and defeats the purpose of the Vegan Police who have to manually remove Todd's powers for him to not use them any further.

Thank you again for the continued civil conversation!

 

[Eficiente]

Being vegan is the requirement, since one would naturally need to be such in order to even have the mental capacity to learn the powers (or qualify for a vegan school). If Todd realistically did have the powers in the first place, then going to vegan academy would be pointless in the story. Furthermore, he could be using telekinesis and such over physical contact, which we know he much prefers, yet he doesn't.

No it wouldn't as we don't know what vegan academy does. He can learn more about them there, or other nonsense about being vegan not related to it. His TK comes from those same powers, he has nothing once they removed them from him.

I'm confused as to why you're making such an odd assumption when the more clear and logical answer is that "secrets' refers to the vegan power of his people. To further this notion

You don't say why it's more clear and logical, you already jump to further that notion.

the vegan academy has the power to physically remove his powers if Todd breaks the rules

That's a non sequitur, that has nothing to do with those secrets, you made up that those secrets have to do with howthey can do that w/o any relation.

(This actually further hurts the argument that simply being vegan grants you powers since Todd ate non-vegan food prior to losing his powers from the Vegan Police, and still had his powers then).

That's yet another extreme, being vegan doesn't grant one the powers, being vegan facilitates that to the point where there is an association between both factors as far as one mentions the matter.

Also, why are you falling back on "made up" points when I have equally as much room to say the exact same thing for the arguments presented on the page? Your points don't really change anything I've said.

Recognize patterns on another doesn't mean they're doing something wrong. You don't have "equally" as much room to say the same, the logic is what happens and I'm saying that your points either lack logic and easily go against common sense.

My argument is that, assuming we compared Todd's feat to the statement made by Bryan about Gideon, they would both be in the same vein of power going off of common sense (I'm assuming nuking a continent would be comparable to a calculation that has a continental rating).

That wouldn't be going off common sense because the text was clearly hyperbolic in relation to his displeased reaction, not about his actual power. This is immensely obvious.

furthermore, I'm not directly endorsing the use of said statement to begin with. the point was that there was a statement regarding a later ex that involved an explosion of the same caliber as we later see from Todd Ingram.

That's being excusatory, maybe confusing intent with the actions actually done. You said "there is a statement for Gideon that implies he has power comparable to Todd (Which makes sense given Gideon is intended to be the final boss of Scott's whole journey)", therefore, yes, you directly endorsed the use of said statement here, it doesn't matter if you believe this to be the case or not. It doesn't matter if this wouldn't have been part of the profiles because you still use it as part of the reasoning to reach the conclusion that scaling to Todd shouldn't be an outlier.

I understand, my apologise if my initial argument came off as such.

It's ok, thanks.

Sorry, your prior wording made it extremely hard to understand your full point. That still doesn't work given Todd is attempting to finish the fight with Scott as soon as possible. In actuality, there's nothing in the original novel that suggests that Todd would even want to hold back against Scott.

Let's not mix things. That second sentence doesn't matter in this bit of the argument. You don't show to understand what I say and so idk if you do. Todd isn't "attempting to finish the fight with Scott as soon as possible", read again what I said. I am not saying that this reason will make it so Todd is holding back, I'm saying that the text saying that he wants to get over the matter is super vague to determine how serious he will go about it. Yes, if we didn't know any better, it would be good, but in the context of that being challenged, the statement is super poor.

This point fundamentally misunderstands the premise behind the Vegan Powers. To begin with, the vegan powers are innately tied to the mind, as is established early on in Volume Three. Therefore, the implication is that the powers are tied to your mental fortitude and thinking ability. For this reason, my original argument made the point that Todd, whilst he was mentally overwhelmed, would not have the conscious ability to restrain himself when his whole psyche is being assualted; Or to word it from a more common perspective, the last thing Todd would be worried about is if he is holding back his power enough to prevent Scott from dying, which I find highly illogical.

Todd was told to not use his powers, therefore he doesn't use them. After the point of no return, he has no reason not to hold back, which is implied more by the fact he wasn't thinking logically whilst in Honest Ed's. Him "trying not to do what he did" gets thrown out the window for reasons already established.

It's a bit excusatory and made up logic, remember the example of fighting a kid a 0.5% of one's power? That or any example you can think of; One's amount of power they can use is dictated by their mind because their everything they can control is dictated by their mind. They're not things that exist separately. This isn't special because it's innately tied to the mind, it's the same because of that. You made up that being "mentally overwhelmed" means that his body will unconsciously do this at full power beyond his ability to try to not use his powers. You in turn made up that "the last thing Todd would be worried about is if he is holding back his power enough to prevent Scott from dying" by viewing as obligatory that he would unconsciously unleash his full power. You made up this "point of no return" in which he had to use his full power, when in reality he was trying not to. You need proof that any of this is the case.

 

[Ped2018]

Brother has to argue with Eficiente in his 2nd CRT?? Praying for you man

 

[AParticularInduvidial]

No it wouldn't as we don't know what vegan academy does. He can learn more about them there, or other nonsense about being vegan not related to it. His TK comes from those same powers, he has nothing once they removed them from him.

There's more contextual evidence to support my argument given Todd displays none of the current abilities associated with the vegan powers in any flashback (I.e no spiky hair when using powers, no aura, etc.). Even playing devil's advocate and assuming you are correct, why are we assuming whatever powers Todd has now are physically amplifying him? The vegan powers are psychic in nature, and nothing suggests they physically amplify him (If they did in the flashbacks, it's reasonable to assume he would at least have had his eyes glowing or his hair spiked up like when he's using his powers).

You don't say why it's more clear and logical, you already jump to further that notion.

Further notion would imply the previous answer was more grounded, when my arguments here are proving otherwise. Even so, why would we assume merely being vegan is enough for any new amplification? It's clear pre-academy Todd isn't displaying any of his abilities that he has in volume three, so him being "amplified" while performing the moon feat has no basis.

That's a non sequitur, that has nothing to do with those secrets, you made up that those secrets have to do with howthey can do that w/o any relation.

This is literal repetition that doesn't address my argument established prior. Occam's razor would suggest that secrets in the context of the vegan academy is in relation to the vegan powers. I'm lost on why the Vegan Academy's secrets would be anything else that's at all relevant to the story, or especially anything that Todd himself would be interested in.

That's yet another extreme, being vegan doesn't grant one the powers, being vegan facilitates that to the point where there is an association between both factors as far as one mentions the matter.

This falls back on my prior two points. If being vegan alone was enough to grant any powers passively, why then can Todd eat non-vegan products and retain his powers just fine? Along with that, why does the Vegan Police have to manually strip his powers away if Todd would've just lost them when he broke the rules regarding the food? Putting these two issues up front, it makes sense that Todd being vegan alone would not be enough to grant any innate powers.

Recognize patterns on another doesn't mean they're doing something wrong. You don't have "equally" as much room to say the same, the logic is what happens and I'm saying that your points either lack logic and easily go against common sense.

That was not my point whatsoever. My point here is that your arguments hold just as much ground as mine to begin with, hence me pointing out that your arguments are just as flawed as my basis.

That wouldn't be going off common sense because the text was clearly hyperbolic in relation to his displeased reaction, not about his actual power. This is immensely obvious.

I would agree the text in question is hyperbolic if it wasn't for the fact that half the things Bryan says about Gideon directly happen in Volume Six via subspace. Other than that however, I have nothing more to say about the statement.

Let's not mix things. That second sentence doesn't matter in this bit of the argument. You don't show to understand what I say and so idk if you do. Todd isn't "attempting to finish the fight with Scott as soon as possible", read again what I said. I am not saying that this reason will make it so Todd is holding back, I'm saying that the text saying that he wants to get over the matter is super vague to determine how serious he will go about it. Yes, if we didn't know any better, it would be good, but in the context of that being challenged, the statement is super poor.

The natural assumption of one wanting to conclude a task as quickly as possible whilst still accomplishing said task would lean towards the idea that Todd would not hold back enough to "toy" with Scott. If anything at all, the statement alone refutes the notion that Todd wanted to toy with Scott since that would be counterproductive to his original mindset.

It's a bit excusatory and made up logic, remember the example of fighting a kid a 0.5% of one's power? That or any example you can think of; One's amount of power they can use is dictated by their mind because their everything they can control is dictated by their mind. They're not things that exist separately. This isn't special because it's innately tied to the mind, it's the same because of that. You made up that being "mentally overwhelmed" means that his body will unconsciously do this at full power beyond his ability to try to not use his powers. You in turn made up that "the last thing Todd would be worried about is if he is holding back his power enough to prevent Scott from dying" by viewing as obligatory that he would unconsciously unleash his full power. You made up this "point of no return" in which he had to use his full power, when in reality he was trying not to. You need proof that any of this is the case.

This is an odd claim since our current stance on this feat is that Todd was holding back to the level as to not kill Scott, so where exactly is the proof that this is the case? But even accepting this stance to not have the issue just pointed out, even assuming Todd wasn't unleashing all his power at once in the honest Ed's attack, assuming he was still holding back has equally less basis if he wasn't consciously controlling his actions, and Occam's razor would suggest that he was exerting energy comparable to his average output (which in this case, would be his moon feat since that took minimal effort as seen in the flashbacks).

The "no point of return" is simply Todd breaking the rules established by Envy, which means that since he's already broken his one rule, there's no reason to fall back after he has failed at his own game, which is why Honest Ed's even implodes at all since he makes no effort to stop himself. This isn't me stringing up random ideas I've made up, I'm just rewording the context of the scene in a thread-applicable text for this discussion.

 

[Eficiente]

There's more contextual evidence to support my argument given Todd displays none of the current abilities associated with the vegan powers in any flashback (I.e no spiky hair when using powers, no aura, etc.).

That's not "contextual evidence to support", not to sound like a broken record, but it is an assumption that you made up, you can't use it to say that it supports your point. Yes, "Todd doesn't display the same powers" (...), but fly to the moon, make a hole there, survive in space & come back to Earth is way too insane even in-universe, logically meaning that the guy with this vegan powers is using those vegan powers to do that. And he is displaying the same powers, just with a minor visual difference, as he flies to do that.

Even playing devil's advocate and assuming you are correct, why are we assuming whatever powers Todd has now are physically amplifying him? The vegan powers are psychic in nature, and nothing suggests they physically amplify him (If they did in the flashbacks, it's reasonable to assume he would at least have had his eyes glowing or his hair spiked up like when he's using his powers).

To say that they are is a super basic assumption next to a massive feat being shown via a character's whose gimmick is being psychic. Again, you assume that his eyes glowing or his hair being like that is the only indicative of him using his powers rather than being an indicative of him using his powers, which you should not do as you don't have any valid reason to do so.

Further notion would imply the previous answer was more grounded, when my arguments here are proving otherwise.

What?

Even so, why would we assume merely being vegan is enough for any new amplification?

We don't know the specifics but we do know something around those lines is the case, that's something we know for sure and we don't assume beyond that.

It's clear pre-academy Todd isn't displaying any of his abilities that he has in volume three, so him being "amplified" while performing the moon feat has no basis.

Would be the 3º time I say the same in this comment so moving on.

This is literal repetition that doesn't address my argument established prior.

How so?

Occam's razor would suggest that secrets in the context of the vegan academy is in relation to the vegan powers. I'm lost on why the Vegan Academy's secrets would be anything else that's at all relevant to the story, or especially anything that Todd himself would be interested in.

Occam's razor wouldn't suggest that when what you say doesn't make any sense. You made up that this secrets need to be relevant to the story, that's insane; it was a throwaway line about the reason for a person we barely know to take a time-consuming decision in his life, the reason could be anything and we cannot say what that is, that's like saying that "any unknown factor in a story needs to be relevant to the story if it can be", it's a baseless fantasy to derive more unearned value from a story.

This falls back on my prior two points. If being vegan alone was enough to grant any powers passively, why then can Todd eat non-vegan products and retain his powers just fine?

You read it but you didn't understand it, see again

being vegan doesn't grant one the powers, being vegan facilitates that

Meaning, Todd can eat non-vegan products and retain his powers just fine because he can, because you're not allowed to assume this wouldn't be the case, because that's never stated as a rule. You made it up as a rule by jumping into assumptions based on reading things that don't mean what you understand from them and thinking those assumptions are facts.

Along with that, why does the Vegan Police have to manually strip his powers away if Todd would've just lost them when he broke the rules regarding the food?

That's just the same question. It can also be that the way he loses the powers is via that police.

Putting these two issues up front, it makes sense that Todd being vegan alone would not be enough to grant any innate powers.

You say that to the person who wrote

being vegan doesn't grant one the powers, being vegan facilitates that

so what do you think that moves things into?

That was not my point whatsoever.

Ok then, understood, I think it could have been your point, I have been a number of people doing that and calling it a day.

My point here is that your arguments hold just as much ground as mine to begin with, hence me pointing out that your arguments are just as flawed as my basis.

Well, again it's all about the logic, so, let everything else show how I disagree.

I would agree the text in question is hyperbolic if it wasn't for the fact that half the things Bryan says about Gideon directly happen in Volume Six via subspace. Other than that however, I have nothing more to say about the statement.

A series can mix in being hyperbolic and "sounding hyperbolic but then oh-oh, the character can do it literally", it doesn't make the unproven things suddenly not hyperbolic. And even then, the proven things could have been exaggerated from what they are in reality.

The natural assumption of one wanting to conclude a task as quickly as possible whilst still accomplishing said task would lean towards the idea that Todd would not hold back enough to "toy" with Scott. If anything at all, the statement alone refutes the notion that Todd wanted to toy with Scott since that would be counterproductive to his original mindset.

You keep miswording what it actually says. He wanted to conclude that and get over it, that's it. You can't say that it's "counterproductive to his original mindset" because his original mindset isn't a fully-determined serious goal that can't be changed by vague feelings, it's mildly determined, yes, but clearly vague enough to be changed in the future.

This is an odd claim since our current stance on this feat is that Todd was holding back to the level as to not kill Scott, so where exactly is the proof that this is the case?

Doesn't need any as it's a smaller claim due to less power being involved.

But even accepting this stance to not have the issue just pointed out, even assuming Todd wasn't unleashing all his power at once in the honest Ed's attack, assuming he was still holding back has equally less basis if he wasn't consciously controlling his actions

No, you just say that. You need to prove your take to stand on its own and you can't. You need to prove my argument to be wrong and you didn't while calling yours "equally" valid. It's very bad.

and Occam's razor would suggest that he was exerting energy comparable to his average output (which in this case, would be his moon feat since that took minimal effort as seen in the flashbacks).

Occam's razor wouldn't suggest that when what you say doesn't make sense. Todd was told to not use his powers, therefore he would try not do his average output, therefore he unleashes as much as he fails at that.

The "no point of return" is simply Todd breaking the rules established by Envy, which means that since he's already broken his one rule, there's no reason to fall back after he has failed at his own game, which is why Honest Ed's even implodes at all since he makes no effort to stop himself. This isn't me stringing up random ideas I've made up, I'm just rewording the context of the scene in a thread-applicable text for this discussion.

That's insane logic, again. It takes me back to Batman not killing the Joker because if he breaks his 1 rule, he will go nuts and never stop killing people, which makes sense only on the premise that he admits insanity to be affecting him. People is not insane, there is a thing called "nuance", if things don't get to be in a certain way then maybe they got to be in a certain other way super far away, or maybe there are alternatives in between that are easier to reach and one shouldn't assume too much. You made up that since he's "broken his one rule, there's no reason to fall back after he has failed at his own game", and you made up that "he makes no effort to stop himself" against we knowing that he was told to not use his powers and against the destruction being far lower than what he actually did to get his tier. Remember this?:

If one fights a kid a 0.5% of their power and for whatever reason they can't hold back as much then that's it. That info doesn't say that 100% of their power will be used, it could be 0.6%, or a bit higher, or anything. Whatever is proven to be the case, it's unquantifiable.

If whatever causes this "one" to "not hold back at 0.5% of their power", then this doesn't mean they're fighting at 100%. You need to stop to think the logic behind that before moving on to other "equally" valid takes, maybe then you will see that you were having no grounds to call them equally valid because your method of evaluation is wrong.

 

[AParticularInduvidial]

That's not "contextual evidence to support", not to sound like a broken record, but it is an assumption that you made up, you can't use it to say that it supports your point. Yes, "Todd doesn't display the same powers" (...), but fly to the moon, make a hole there, survive in space & come back to Earth is way too insane even in-universe, logically meaning that the guy with this vegan powers is using those vegan powers to do that. And he is displaying the same powers, just with a minor visual difference, as he flies to do that.

I wouldn't really call those listed abilities insane when characters like Ramona Flowers can teleport between realities, Gideon can seal people in their minds and take control of them, and Scott can resurrect himself by using video game powers that also allow people to turn others into money and force them to respawn.
And likewise on sounding like a broken record, I feel the prior established points made here have fulfilled my end of the burden to prove my original point.

To say that they are is a super basic assumption next to a massive feat being shown via a character's whose gimmick is being psychic. Again, you assume that his eyes glowing or his hair being like that is the only indicative of him using his powers rather than being an indicative of him using his powers, which you should not do as you don't have any valid reason to do so.

Except that indication is a core element of the vegan powers? I feel like not visually including the glowing eyes and/or spiky hair, which is the first thing characters like Scott notice when Todd uses his powers, is a pretty big indication that he's not using his powers.

We don't know the specifics but we do know something around those lines is the case, that's something we know for sure and we don't assume beyond that.

May I please see what indicates this? There's nothing on the profiles that establishes this to my knowledge, and going off what I've sent, I have reason to believe otherwise.

Occam's razor wouldn't suggest that when what you say doesn't make any sense. You made up that this secrets need to be relevant to the story, that's insane; it was a throwaway line about the reason for a person we barely know to take a time-consuming decision in his life, the reason could be anything and we cannot say what that is, that's like saying that "any unknown factor in a story needs to be relevant to the story if it can be", it's a baseless fantasy to derive more unearned value from a story.

Come again? Are we not reading the same series? Because that "throwaway line" is directly related to the faction that is tied to Todd's vegan prowess. If anything, occam's razor would intel that "...his people's secrets" refers to the vegan powers Todd honed his mind to learn. I don't know what other possible implication could come from that line, since it's clear what the purpose of the vegan academy is.

Meaning, Todd can eat non-vegan products and retain his powers just fine because he can, because you're not allowed to assume this wouldn't be the case, because that's never stated as a rule. You made it up as a rule by jumping into assumptions based on reading things that don't mean what you understand from them and thinking those assumptions are facts.

This argument was supporting the point that Todd did not have his powers before going to Vegan Academy, since clearly one doesn't need to be a pure vegan to have the vegan powers or maintain them, hence the idea that he acquired them exclusively at Vegan Academy.

so what do you think that moves things into?

In context of the Scott Pilgrim world, being vegan is a necessary quality to attend the Vegan Academy, otherwise you wouldn't be allowed to learn vegan powers.

A series can mix in being hyperbolic and "sounding hyperbolic but then oh-oh, the character can do it literally", it doesn't make the unproven things suddenly not hyperbolic. And even then, the proven things could have been exaggerated from what they are in reality.

I feel you've continued to miss the point I've referenced this particular scan for, but at this point, I've shifted my focus purely on the Todd arguments, so I'll concede to anything in relation to this paragraph now.

You keep miswording what it actually says. He wanted to conclude that and get over it, that's it. You can't say that it's "counterproductive to his original mindset" because his original mindset isn't a fully-determined serious goal that can't be changed by vague feelings, it's mildly determined, yes, but clearly vague enough to be changed in the future.

"7. TODD INGRAM
(age unknown)
wants to kick Scott Pilgrim's ass and get it over with" <---- leaving this here for general reference.
"...because his original mindset isn't a fully-determined serious goal that can't be changed by vague feelings..."
I'm confused then, what is your/the wiki's stance on his general mindset here/throughout volume three and why? Because my ultimate goal is demoting the notion that Todd is holding back to toy with Scott, which I thought was what you agreed with.

Doesn't need any as it's a smaller claim due to less power being involved.

What indicates less power? If it's because of the area of effect damage, then wouldn't the basic assumption be that Todd doesn't want to hurt people like Envy Adams with an attack that ranges kilometers wide? I feel falling on this particular rebuttal is incredibly unfair to Scott Pilgrim as a series when so many other fictional franchises have this same issue that can't simply be explained away.

No, you just say that. You need to prove your take to stand on its own and you can't. You need to prove my argument to be wrong and you didn't while calling yours "equally" valid. It's very bad.

The point I was making was that Todd consciously holding back whilst he's unable to control his own mind is preposterous. Therefore I understand it more likely that he would exert an energy equivalent to what he could do regularly.

Occam's razor wouldn't suggest that when what you say doesn't make sense. Todd was told to not use his powers, therefore he would try not do his average output, therefore he unleashes as much as he fails at that.

This is once again more repetition when I've made several points to explain away why this wouldn't be the case. Again, just for reference, how are we expecting Todd to hold back his power when he's being mentally overwhelmed and having a panic attack? It's completely illogical to assume he would break his rules whilst trying to not "break them" as much as possible under the context of this scene.

That's insane logic, again. It takes me back to Batman not killing the Joker because if he breaks his 1 rule, he will go nuts and never stop killing people, which makes sense only on the premise that he admits insanity to be affecting him. People is not insane, there is a thing called "nuance", if things don't get to be in a certain way then maybe they got to be in a certain other way super far away, or maybe there are alternatives in between that are easier to reach and one shouldn't assume too much. You made up that since he's "broken his one rule, there's no reason to fall back after he has failed at his own game", and you made up that "he makes no effort to stop himself" against we knowing that he was told to not use his powers and against the destruction being far lower than what he actually did to get his tier. Remember this?:

Major false equivalence from what I'm seeing. I'm not calling this rule a "moral code" standard for Todd (It's clear he can care less about those around him), my point was that due to him being entirely unstable within Honest Ed's, he wouldn't have the mental capacity to restrain his power in that moment, let alone to such a degree as to not kill or seriously harm Scott.
Also, I don't know why you keep falling back on the "0.5% power level" argument when that has no relevance to this particular instance of Todd losing control of himself.

If whatever causes this "one" to "not hold back at 0.5% of their power", then this doesn't mean they're fighting at 100%. You need to stop to think the logic behind that before moving on to other "equally" valid takes, maybe then you will see that you were having no grounds to call them equally valid because your method of evaluation is wrong.

Even playing devil's advocate and agreeing that he wasn't going 100% during his Honest Ed's scene, him exerting comparable power to a feat he does rather easily years prior to going to Vegan Academy, I have just as much reason to believe what Scott survived was a continental level attack (Which again, either make it an outlier for everyone, or allow characters to scale to Todd, I can ultimately care less).

Thanks once again for the continued discussion! This has been very helpful for my understanding of the wiki's standards and the people who use it!

 

[Eficiente]

Well, I'm gonna leave it at that now so that others may take care of the matter. Sorry.

 

[Lonkitt]

Holding Back doesn't make sense.
For starters, Todd Ingram does not "hold back" his psychic powers to drop several tiers. We know this since the very beginning of volume three where it's established he's trying to kill Scott Pilgrim as quick as possible.

About that...

EDIT: Accidentally linked the wrong scan, its fixed now

 

[Qawsedf234]

I'm with Eficiente here. The standard scaling of the site and the story itself wouldn't allow for Scott to scale to Todd's full power.

 

[Lonkitt]

Also aside from the WoG statement I linked, nothing outright tells us that the next ex Scott has to fight is stronger than the last. It’s not like NMH where there’s a ranking system that supports any kind of upscaling. They’re a league, remember

 

[AParticularInduvidial]

About that...

I finally see where that notion comes from. Honestly, I would just say that statement is a contradiction since it doesn't accurately portray Todd in the scuffles he has with Scott.

Furthermore, the instance at Honest Ed's would be a clear exception for reasons listed above.

 

[Lonkitt]

I finally see where that notion comes from. Honestly, I would just say that statement is a contradiction since it doesn't accurately portray Todd in the scuffles he has with Scott.

I can't say I agree. All Todd does is toss Scott around. Pretty far cry from blasting holes in the Moon

 

[AParticularInduvidial]

I'm with Eficiente here. The standard scaling of the site and the story itself wouldn't allow for Scott to scale to Todd's full power.

You seem to misunderstand my stance. Scott Pilgrim scaling was just a single possible solution to the issue I had. Ultimately, I'd much rather we just remove the High 8-C/8-B calculation that Scott is scaling to, or make the 6-A an outlier for everyone.

 

[AParticularInduvidial]

I can't say I agree. All Todd does is toss Scott around. Pretty far cry from blasting holes in the Moon

That's mainly because Todd has a preference over physical contact. It's clear how much he likes his power, otherwise he wouldn't have been so devastated by the removal of said powers.

 

[AParticularInduvidial]

Also aside from the WoG statement I linked, nothing outright tells us that the next ex Scott has to fight is stronger than the last. It’s not like NMH where there’s a ranking system that supports any kind of upscaling. They’re a league, remember

I think there was a statement in volume five Scott made about each ex getting progressively stronger/harder, but I don't know how much weight that holds.

 

[Lonkitt]

That's mainly because Todd has a preference over physical contact. It's clear how much he likes his power, otherwise he wouldn't have been so devastated by the removal of said powers.

His instances of tossing Scott wouldn't translate to 6-A scaling though

Todd overwhelmed by the "forces" of Honest Ed's and lost control of his powers. I think an exception can be made that the implosion wasn't a full power one

 

[AParticularInduvidial]

His instances of tossing Scott wouldn't translate to 6-A scaling though

Well that much is obvious. It's literally just telekinesis, it wouldn't be tierable to begin. All that tells me is Todd didn't want to directly confront Scott, because anything else that inflicted direct damage did little to nothing on Scott.

Todd overwhelmed by the "forces" of Honest Ed's and lost control of his powers. I think an exception can be made that the implosion wasn't a full power one

I think otherwise based on what has been presented here. And I especially think a scene like this requires critical analysis so that we don't give certain feats free passes.

 

[Lonkitt]

I think otherwise based on what has been presented here. And I especially think a scene like this requires critical analysis so that we don't give certain feats free passes.

It isn't really a "free pass". If you read the scene, Todd is feeling pretty under the weather just by being inside Honest Ed's. This isn't him at his peak

 

[AParticularInduvidial]

It isn't really a "free pass". If you read the scene, Todd is feeling pretty under the weather just by being inside Honest Ed's. This isn't him at his peak

That wasn't just a Todd Ingram thing though. The whole premise of the Honest Ed's battle was to survive in the store, which is hard to do when it is causing psychological panic attacks. I believe this is actually more reason for Todd to not hold back or be "weakened" since his innate response to a threat like this is to lash out with an explosive attack, thereby destroying the threat.

 

[Lonkitt]

That wasn't just a Todd Ingram thing though. The whole premise of the Honest Ed's battle was to survive in the store, which is hard to do when it is causing psychological panic attacks. I believe this is actually more reason for Todd to not hold back or be "weakened" since his innate response to a threat like this is to lash out with an explosive attack, thereby destroying the threat.

Your response works against the idea he went all out there. He targeted the threat, which is Honest Ed’s. I really can’t say I buy that being a case of 6-A scaling for Todd

 

[AParticularInduvidial]

Your response works against the idea he went all out there. He targeted the threat, which is Honest Ed’s. I really can’t say I buy that being a case of 6-A scaling for Todd

I kinda already went back on it being an "all-out attack" and instead something equivalent to what he could exert regularly (To which his 6-A feat was something he performed years prior with debatably no powers). If we're playing by the area of effect argument, refer to my arguments above where I said I feel that's an unfair standard place exclusively on Scott Pilgrim's series when so many fictional franchises have that same issue plaguing it.

 

[Lonkitt]

I kinda already went back on it being an "all-out attack" and instead something equivalent to what he could exert regularly (To which his 6-A feat was something he performed years prior with debatably no powers). If we're playing by the area of effect argument, refer to my arguments above where I said I feel that's an unfair standard place exclusively on Scott Pilgrim's series when so many fictional franchises have that same issue plaguing it.

Todd’s Moon feats are absolutely the result of Veganism. He even has his glowy hands and eyes when doing it, which are always shown when he uses Vegan Powers

 

[AParticularInduvidial]

Todd’s Moon feats are absolutely the result of Veganism. He even has his glowy hands and eyes when doing it, which are always shown when he uses Vegan Powers

I also already addressed this above. Also, he absolutely did not have any form of glow to his body whilst performing his feat.

 

[Lonkitt]

I also already addressed this above.

Yeah. You brought up how we don’t know when he learned it. But everything lining up with his powers is displayed with his Vegan Powers

The idea that he didn’t have his Vegan Powers before the Moon stuff is headcanon at absolute best. But it ain’t concrete. I mean, Bryan even said Todd wasn’t going all out in response to a question that addressed the Moon holes. I don’t think Bryan at all implied “Oh but the Moon hole blasts are stuff Scott can endure”

 

[AParticularInduvidial]

Yeah. You brought up how we don’t know when he learned it. But everything lining up with his powers is displayed with his Vegan Powers

I brought why it'd make sense for him to get his powers post-moon feat at vegan academy.

The idea that he didn’t have his Vegan Powers before the Moon stuff is headcanon at absolute best.

The same can be said for the complete opposite. It just makes more sense that he would acquire the powers at college where the secrets of his people are at.

Furthermore, we know being vegan alone (Because Todd was not vegan at the end of the volume) is not enough to be psychic.

I mean, Bryan even said Todd wasn’t going all out in response to a question that addressed the Moon holes. I don’t think Bryan at all implied “Oh but the Moon hole blasts are stuff Scott can endure”

Again, I made a claim saying that I feel this is clearly a contradiction to Todd as a character since he wanted to end his fight with Scott as soon as possible.

 

[Lonkitt]

I brought why it'd make sense for him to get his powers post-moon feat at vegan academy.

But you also brought up the argument that he could’ve done so without them for whatever reason. If you believe he isn’t making those holes without Vegan Powers, why bring it up at all? It feels more distracting than constructive

The same can be said for the complete opposite. It just makes more sense that he would acquire the powers at college where the secrets of his people are at.

Except the nature of his abilities is pretty heavily implied to be from his Vegan Powers. When depowered of his Veganism, Todd’s people much pulp and Scott one-shots him easily

He absolutely had his Vegan abilities in the flashback

Furthermore, we know being vegan alone (Because Todd was not vegan at the end of the volume) is not enough to be psychic.

You’re gonna have to elaborate there

Again, I made a claim saying that I feel this is clearly a contradiction to Todd as a character since he wanted to end his fight with Scott as soon as possible.

He never really expressed a surging desire to end the fight with Scott ASAP. Sure he wanted it to be done with, but he wasn’t pulling out all the stops for Scott. If he was, he would’ve vaporized him. Instead he pushes him through a wall and tosses him into the sky. Not even with a ton of effort, his expressions and actions are portrayed as incredibly nonchalant

This lines up with how Bryan said he was a smarmy asshole who just felt he was superior to everybody so he didn’t need to go all out on Scott

The way Todd behaves and the literal series writer communicate that Scott doesn’t scale to Todd’s 6-A

 

[AParticularInduvidial]

But you also brought up the argument that he could’ve done so without them for whatever reason. If you believe he isn’t making those holes without Vegan Powers, why bring it up at all? It feels more distracting than constructive

It was done as a point to either answer would benefit my point. But I apologize for the distractive nature of the wording. I stand by Todd not having his powers during his high school years.

Except the nature of his abilities is pretty heavily implied to be from his Vegan Powers. When depowered of his Veganism, Todd’s people much pulp and Scott one-shots him easily

We literally have no clue what he can do without his powers. And saying he has no abilities in base because Scott one-shotted him is completely circular.

He absolutely had his Vegan abilities in the flashback

This is just repetition. If you look at the flashback illustrations, he has no glowing aura around his body (I.e eyes or hands), nor does his hair stick up like it does in volume three. His physical appearance remains entirely the same as it does before he leaves earth (I can only reference the movie scene since I don't know how to send images via comments without adding a random file to the wiki).

You’re gonna have to elaborate there

I already made the point above (I find it odd how you sided with Eficiente's points, yet you seem to not have read any of mine). Todd ate non-vegan products prior to fighting Scott one last time, and still retained his powers.

He never really expressed a surging desire to end the fight with Scott ASAP. Sure he wanted it to be done with, but he wasn’t pulling out all the stops for Scott. If he was, he would’ve vaporized him. Instead he pushes him through a wall and tosses him into the sky. Not even with a ton of effort, his expressions and actions are portrayed as incredibly nonchalant

Todd's nonchalant expressions are not because he views Scott as a joke. Literally all the characters act this way in the volume when a fight happens.

Also, both of Todd's attacks got more extreme each time. I'm pretty sure the main reason Todd used telekinesis is because Scott would've hit him otherwise, given how close they were to each other. Seems more like he was taking the fight serious enough to avoid taking damage from Scott.

This lines up with how Bryan said he was a smarmy asshole who just felt he was superior to everybody so he didn’t need to go all out on Scott

It really doesn't since the nature of fights in Scott Pilgrim kinda denotes Todd's reactions to be anything special. In fact, volume has a scene where everybody was fully aware Scott was supposed to fight a killer robot, and nobody acted panicked.

The way Todd behaves and the literal series writer communicate that Scott doesn’t scale to Todd’s 6-A

Again, I'm not saying he does. Has my point not been made clear enough? I believe Scott scaling shouldn't be the case, and instead we should either remove High 8-C/8-B scaling, or Todd's 6-A feat from the verse entirely.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Again, I'm not saying he does. Has my point not been made clear enough? I believe Scott scaling shouldn't be the case, and instead we should either remove High 8-C/8-B scaling, or Todd's 6-A feat from the verse entirely.

I don't see why the frat would need to be removed. The calc itself goes over what Scott scales to and it isn't Todd. Todd also doesn't struggle with anything to make the 6-A feat invalid.

 

[AParticularInduvidial]

I don't see why the frat would need to be removed. The calc itself goes over what Scott scales to and it isn't Todd. Todd also doesn't struggle with anything to make the 6-A feat invalid.

This whole thread has been me more or less voicing my disagreements with those reasons.

 

[Qawsedf234]

I get that, but as the other mods have said I don't see those reasoning really meaning a lot.

At least not on there own without other showings to back a low rating.

 

[AParticularInduvidial]

I get that, but as the other mods have said I don't see those reasoning really meaning a lot.

Well then this whole feels pointless now. Even with my efforts and despite having the final word on both accounts, there nothing I can do since mods have the final say.

At least not on there own without other showings to back a low rating.

If that is the case, then I see no reason for this thread to remain open, since that's now three members with higher authority disagreeing with my proposals.

 

[AParticularInduvidial]

Thank you all for the participation on the thread, regardless if the result was to my liking or not!

 

[Nullflowerblush]

If you look at the flashback illustrations, he has no glowing aura around his body (I.e eyes or hands), nor does his hair stick up like it does in volume three.

Todd is already a vegan by the time of the flashback.

Todd ate non-vegan products prior to fighting Scott one last time, and still retained his powers.

Because the Vegan Police had not caught up yet.

 

[AParticularInduvidial]

Todd is already a vegan by the time of the flashback.

That was already established above. The argument was that being vegan wasn't enough for the powers.

Because the Vegan Police had not caught up yet.

Yes, I agree. Therefore, being vegan alone is not the primary factor for having the powers, otherwise Todd would have lost them as soon as he ate non-vegan food. That's what I was arguing above.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

At the beginning of the volume, Todd explicitly explains that merely being a vegan (and abandoning the 90% of the brain consisting of "curds and whey") is enough to unlock 100% of the brain and psychic powers. The fact he was even accepted into Vegan Academy is proof.

otherwise Todd would have lost them as soon as he ate non-vegan food

He did. In the form of the Vegan Police.

nor does his hair stick up

Forgot to mention, but he is wearing a headband in the flashback.

 

[AParticularInduvidial]

At the beginning of the volume, Todd explicitly explains that merely being a vegan (and abandoning the 90% of the brain consisting of "curds and whey") is enough to unlock 100% of the brain and psychic powers. The fact he was even accepted into Vegan Academy is proof.

That's directly debunked by Todd not fulfilling those requirements later in the volume by eating meat. And if anything, that scene shows Todd has no idea what he's talking about since the cast says his explanation makes no sense.

Also, as I said above, being vegan is merely the requirement to get accepted. It would be weird if non-vegans got accepted into vegan academy to learn vegan powers.

He did. In the form of the Vegan Police.

But he didn't lose them innately when he ate meat. Henceforth, you can have the vegan powers and not be vegan until said powers are manually stripped away.

Forgot to mention, but he is wearing a headband in the flashback.

Yes, and his hair appears identical to what it does before he leaves earth. And even excusing the hair, his eyes have no particular glow to them whilst he's flying.