Sasuke Uchiha Vs Sousuke Aizen

[Akiretsu]

@Anime4life

Go rwad Sasuke vs Orochimaru. Sasuke does the exact same thing To Orochimaru as Itachi did to Kurenai.

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

The rinnegan should be able to counter Aizen's Ks as it is stated to be resistant to illusions.. i think the reason Ks worked on the Almighty is because the Almighty doesnt have illusion resisntent properties.. it can see into the future yes and you might be able to avoid it then.. however Ks might have worked cause Aizen had put yhwach under Ks before their battle and before he activated his almighty. im not 100 percent sure but im going to go check again later today, so if Aizen did not put Yhwach earlier in Ks it wouldnt have worked on yhwach. so my conclusion is that ks shouldnt work on Sasuke. as for genjutsu working on Aizen.. i dont think so.. considering he figured out Shinji's ability rather quickly i can see genjutsu not being a problem for Aizen.

 

[GreatestSin]

same thing because of that fact.
In fact, since you claim Sasuke shouldnt have this just because he has Itachi's eyes, does that mean Sasuke also shouldnt have Izanagi, Izanami, and all other special techniques from the Uchiua as well?

yeah he shouldnt, i never understood why he gets all that abilitys without ever showing to have them, he may have the potential to have them/use them but it doesnt mean he actually can...

so, aizen wins mid diff

@shadowbokunohero

KS never worked on allmighty, aizen used it on base ywach way before allmightly was activated...and im not so sure about rinnegan having illusion resisting powers, nagato was captured rather easily by the two old frogs genjutsu in their fight alongside jiraya...

 

[RemnantOfTheAkatsuki]

Danzo clearly stated that you just needed a Sharingan to do Izunagi or Izunami. If Itachi could only do it, how do you think Danzo did it, Shisui did it, and the female Uchiha (I forget her name) did it.

 

[RemnantOfTheAkatsuki]

Naori, thats her name for my previous comment. Also, we accepted that both have strong Illusion techniques. So let's say they cancel out. I HAVE YET TO SEE ANYONE PUT ANYHTING OTHER THAN KS. IF THATS THE REASON HE BEAT MADARA YOU MIGHT AS WELL TAKE IT OFF.

 

[GreatestSin]

^shouting wont make your arguments more convincing...

and only because "everybody" can do it doesnt mean sasuke can suddenly either, it isnt a skill someone is born with, it needs to be learned which is why it cant simply be said "itachi had it, some other people too, so sasuke must have it also"...

btw, why should KS and ordinary genjutsu cancel each other out? KS is a far higher lvl if it comes to illusion and sense manipulation than any genjutsu of the naruto verse (except for maybe tsukuyomi and IT)...

 

[HokageMangaVox]

And so far your references dont say Aizen knows all Kido outside of just Bakudo and Hado.

Bruh, Kido is divided into Bakudo and Hado. You just admitted he knows them. -_- I won't bother with the rest. Is ludicrous.

 

[HokageMangaVox]

I don't see a problem with this, and this is indeed true, and you can't denied it.

Ok, since you want to handicap Sasuke on a technicality instead of allowing both to compete with no restrictions, the only thing this does make this match inconclusive being Sasuke wont be able to Genjutsu him but he'll see through KS still. Seeing through the illusion has nothing to do with the chakra being controlled.

Is not my fault that Genjutsu has that weakness to exploit, and KS doesn't.

 

[HokageMangaVox]

In a debate you dont ignore the othersides proof or else you end up looking like an idiot. Go read my references and dont bother responding unless you do.

Reference of what? Itachi letting Sasuke out of Tsukuyumi. Sasuke didn't brake it. Itachi let him out. So post the scans so I can debunk you. Sasuke has no feats of breaking out of Genjutsu.

 

[GreatestSin]

^and even if itachi didnt let him out, sasuke breaking out of itachi tsukuyomi isnt the same as breaking out of anyone tsukuyomi since itachis can only be broken out from someone who has a sharingan+his blood which only works on sasuke, http://www.***********.net/naruto/142/15

that means if, for example, obito had tsukuyomi and used it one sasuke, he wouldnt be able to escape...

 

[Quincy_Emperor]

Each Rinnegan and Sharigan have unique abilities. Madara has Limbo and Sasuke has his teleportation. Itachi had extremely proficient Genjutsu, Izanami and Izanagi and Tsukuyomi. Shisui had Kotoamatsukami. The only jutsu shown to be used by more than one of these eyes are Amaterasu, Izanagi and Susano'o (Unless I forgot some).


You know how much Uchiha value their eyes, so even if Sasuke could use Izanami, it would be saved towards the end of the fight or when he feels in danger.


Now I don't know what to say about the whole cancelling KS argument. I personally don't think he can. Aizen was capable of fooling the eyes of Yhwach.

Edit: I personally believe that visual illusions might be susceptable to being countered, however all 4 other senses are under Aizen's control. That's a slim breakage chance however.

 

[PaChi2]

please dont quote big walls of text, it makes it impossible to read through the debate.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

I could say the same thing in reverse, but i'm not here to insult anyone. This is suppose to be a fair fight, if neither have shown to use it, but can be back up that they could, either both can use it or neither. It will be hypocritical to just let one use it don't you think, or do you believe that Sasuke deserves a special treatment over his opponent.

And why would you? You called me out on it first for doing it to Sasuke, then I did to you when you turned around and did it to Aizen. Why would you call me out again on doing something you already did before? You're just going around in circles now because you know im right about calling you a hypocrite on doing something for Aizen you complained about me doing for Sasuke.

And even if its speculative for both, Sasuke at least has more solid stuff to justify him reflecting illusions. Meanwhile Aizen only has a far fetched statement at being at the "pinacle" of a soul reapers capabilities which hardly means he has mastery of all Kido. Not that I would mind him having here to begin with but the reasoning for it is not solid enough

PS- apparently Sasuke did reflect illusions like Itachi did when Orochimaru tried taking over his body, courtesy of Akrietsu's statement.

 

[Quincy_Emperor]

Squad 5 was pretty renown for Kidou, he performed 99 with utter ease, does the same with 90. When he was a Vice-Captain he blocked a Hado 88 from the Kidou Corps Captain with a Bakudo using no incantation- which Tessei cites as being impossible.

The man is a master of Kido, there has been no one showing higher level higher Kidou being performed as easily.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

same thing because of that fact.
In fact, since you claim Sasuke shouldnt have this just because he has Itachi's eyes, does that mean Sasuke also shouldnt have Izanagi, Izanami, and all other special techniques from the Uchiua as well?

yeah he shouldnt, i never understood why he gets all that abilitys without ever showing to have them, he may have the potential to have them/use them but it doesnt mean he actually can...

For EoS Sasuke it should mean he can use them. Like said for the 1000th time, sasuke was not only given Itachi's powers when Itachi died, but Sasuke has had them from when he implanted them to currently now in the Boruto manga. That is years, years and years of having them. And unlike Naruto, Sasuke didnt stop developing his skills he has trained all that time to be where he is now. To say he hasnt unlocked the full capabilities of Itachi's eyes in that huge timespan is not only extremely unlikely, but also kind of ridiculous. There's nothing that suggests Sasuke hasnt fully unlocked Itachi's eyes.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Aizen was capable of fooling the eyes of Yhwach.

Because Ywhach's Almighty was off. With it off, Ywhach is no different than anyone else in Bleach when it comes to being vulnerable to a technique so its hardly impressive fooling Ywhach when he's at his weakest. With Almighty on, it's highly certain Aizen's KS would have been nullified via its Future Manipulation.

 

[Quincy_Emperor]

Because Ywhach's Almighty was off. With it off, Ywhach is no different than anyone else in Bleach when it comes to being vulnerable to a technique so its hardly impressive fooling Ywhach when he's at his weakest. With Almighty on, it's highly certain Aizen's KS would have been nullified via its Future Manipulation.

Unfortunately you are completely and utterly wrong. It was disabled when Uryu arrived, which happened after Yhwach was first "Killed" and after Aizen had Yhwach stab him in the gut with his hand.

KS fooled Yhwach.

 

[HokageMangaVox]

Because Ywhach's Almighty was off. With it off, Ywhach is no different than anyone else in Bleach when it comes to being vulnerable to a technique so its hardly impressive fooling Ywhach when he's at his weakest. With Almighty on, it's highly certain Aizen's KS would have been nullified via its Future Manipulation.

This is so wrong. If it was like what you implied, why was Yhwach able to remove Ichibei's technique from his body? Which removes all of Yhwach's powers. He was attack by it, before he had the Almighty and when he activate it he easily became inmune to it, and break out of it.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Because Ywhach's Almighty was off. With it off, Ywhach is no different than anyone else in Bleach when it comes to being vulnerable to a technique so its hardly impressive fooling Ywhach when he's at his weakest. With Almighty on, it's highly certain Aizen's KS would have been nullified via its Future Manipulation.

Unfortunately you are completely and utterly wrong. It was disabled when Uryu arrived, which happened after Yhwach was first "Killed" and after Aizen had Yhwach stab him in the gut with his hand.
KS fooled Yhwach.

So like I said, Almighty was already off and was not on when Aizen fooled him. Unless you have evidence to support this?

 

[HokageMangaVox]

And why would you? You called me out on it first for doing it to Sasuke, then I did to you when you turned around and did it to Aizen. Why would you call me out again on doing something you already did before? You're just going around in circles now because you know im right about calling you a hypocrite on doing something for Aizen you complained about me doing for Sasuke.

And even if its speculative for both, Sasuke at least has more solid stuff to justify him reflecting illusions. Meanwhile Aizen only has a far fetched statement at being at the "pinacle" of a soul reapers capabilities which hardly means he has mastery of all Kido. Not that I would mind him having here to begin with but the reasoning for it is not solid enough

PS- apparently Sasuke did reflect illusions like Itachi did when Orochimaru tried taking over his body, courtesy of Akrietsu's statement.

You're going in circles? Really. Look who is not answering my question. Either both or neither your choice.

You mean Sasuke forces Orochimaru out of his body, and traps him in Genjutsu. Because that was what happen. [[1]]

And that really is vague. [[2]]

 

[Quincy_Emperor]

"So like I said, Almighty was already off and was not on when Aizen fooled him. Unless you have evidence to support this?"

Sir, I have absolutely no idea how you managed to make out that I just supported you claim, that's impressive. Here, proof of your inaccuracy.


http://www.**********.com/bleach/683/10 - Yhwach using Almighty to break Kyoka Suigetsu

http://www.**********.com/bleach/683/11 -Alluding to his future sight

http://www.**********.com/bleach/683/13 -Alluding again.

http://www.**********.com/bleach/683/16 -Actually not Ichigo.

For the sake of my sanity please don't try refuting this fact. Aizen fooled The Almighty.

Here is Uryu stopping his powers

http://www.**********.com/bleach/684/11 -Here is the Arrow stopping his powers, one entire chapter later.

 

[HokageMangaVox]

Yhwach was caught in KS before he unlocked the Almighty. This much we know. We also know that Yhwach's Inmunity to dispel attacks didn't work with KS, and he couldn't break out of it.


Now, Yhwach has a feat that proves that KS is as powerful as Aizen claims, which is that no one can get out of it, unless he lets you.

Yhwach closed eyes (Almighty off) was caught in Ichibei's power that has this hax:

[1]

[2]

[3]

[4]

[5]

After been under the effects of Ichimonji, both Shikai and bankai, (Shikai remove powers and bankaj gives powers) Yhwach unlocks the Almighty for the first time:

[6]

Then Yhwach procceds to remove and break out of Ichimonji's power:

[7]

[8]

[9]

As you see KS can't be escape, bounce or broken by no one except Aizen. Rinnegan and Sharingan will be KS play things.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Because Ywhach's Almighty was off. With it off, Ywhach is no different than anyone else in Bleach when it comes to being vulnerable to a technique so its hardly impressive fooling Ywhach when he's at his weakest. With Almighty on, it's highly certain Aizen's KS would have been nullified via its Future Manipulation.

This is so wrong. If it was like what you implied, why was Yhwach able to remove Ichibei's technique from his body? Which removes all of Yhwach's powers. He was attack by it, before he had the Almighty and when he activate it he easily became inmune to it, and break out of it.
Um

Because Aizen's KS is much more everlasting than Ichiebi's power? And that it lasts "forever" as you claim it to be? Obviously its not the same thing when Ywhach removed Ichiebi's power.

And no, Aizen doesnt get his TIme Stopping Hado just because Sasuke gets his illusion reflecting hax. Its much more logical to assume Sasuke has his hax than Aizen having that Hado for multiple reasons already brought forth.

And again, you just proved my point. Ywhach was put under the effects of KS before he unlocked the almighty. That means, before he gained the Alimighty Ywhach was as vulnerable to KS as everyone else in Bleach was. And the Almighty can only nullfy stuff from the future, hence his Future Manipulation, not past events that happened pre-Almighty (unless a revision thread is needed to give Ywhach Past Manipulation as well). So again, for the last time, Aizen putting KS on Ywhach before the Almighty was activated is not as impressive as your making it out to be in any way, and it is certainely not going to help in this fight either. If Aizen could cast KS on Ywhach with Almighty already o, then you would be right. But he hasnt and he can't. So it is a moot point from here on.

 

[HokageMangaVox]

Lol that huge wall of txt is useless, if you actually read, and saw the links I posted. I debunked that before you post it, knowing it was going to be ask. Next time refresh the page.

 

[Quincy_Emperor]

He changes the future so, yes he can nulify hax that struck him when he was vulnurable. Hence Ichibei's hax failing after Yhwach opened his eyes.

He can change to a future where KS isn't on, but it doesn't work. You are really underestimating just how powerful The Almighty is.

Also that Sasuke point is pure nonsense. Aizen has reasons to know Forbidden Kido and to be able to use it.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

He changes the future so, yes he can nulify hax that struck him when he was vulnurable. Hence Ichibei's hax failing after Yhwach opened his eyes.
He can change to a future where KS isn't on, but it doesn't work. You are really underestimating just how powerful The Almighty is.

Also that Sasuke point is pure nonsense. Aizen has reasons to know Forbidden Kido and to be able to use it.

Too bad he cant because that's before the Alimighty's activation, aka in the past. Almighty doesnt deal with stuff from the past, only the future. Unless Ywhach has Past Manipulation, which we dont list him to have, my point here still stands.

And guess what? That wouldnt work because since KS was already entered into him before the Almighty was turned on, Aizen can just make an illusion to make him think he's seeing a future with no KS on.

Reasons such as? I highly doubt they are as concrete as the ones for Sasuke but you can try.

 

[Quincy_Emperor]

I have already said why Aizen should be able to use almost all Kidou further up.

Ichibei hit him before The Almighty Activated also. That entire point is moot. He can change futures like that. There will be future where KS was never applied, same for Ichibei's hax. Yet he could break Ichibei's and not Aizen's.


http://www.**********.com/bleach/609 - No Almighty

http://www.**********.com/bleach/609/12 -Pupils split while still called "Black Ant", activation of The Almighty.

http://www.**********.com/bleach/609/15 -Promptly changes an effect that happened in the past by chosing a new future where it has not happened.

 

[Akiretsu]

Hokage hokage hokage....you're irritating.

Yhwach doesnt have resistance to mindfucking. You contradict yourself so ******* bad its funny. Almighty negates abilities used on Yhwach before and after its activation which is why Ichibe's power nolonger had any effect on him. The fact that KS wasnt broken means it doesnt give him Illusion resistance you idiot. Bleachverse doesn't have mindfucking resistance. You cant say Sasuke isnt gonna be able to see through KS or Break it based him using it on Yhwach who doesnt have Mindfucking Resistance anyways. This Is plain foolery. NOBODY IN BLEACH has the potential to be immune,break or bounce back illusions but because a godtier couldnt the strongest user atm in a verse that does this regulary cant? Laughable.

Sasuke seeing through Genjutsu casually: Chapters 383-387

Sasuke Breaks Tsukiyomi: Chapter 388

Sasuke seeing Through Genjutsu again: Chapter 461

Sasuke bouncing abilities back at the weilders: Chapter 345-346

Sharingan can see the color of Chakra containd within an idividual: Chapter 242 and 360

Sasuke can see through KS Illusions unlike everyone else in Bleach. These feats are from a vastly vastly weaker Sasuke. And Current Sasuke is Superior to Aizen so is eyes are especially strong and as Shown above The Rinnegan is resistant to Genjutsu. This is stated word for word in Manga and Databook. Aizen wouldnt be able to get Sasuke in KS in the first place.

Sasuke can see through illusions, break out of Genjutsu and bounce it back at Individuals.

Also, Hokage you just brike into complete NLF. You said and I quote: "As you see KS can't be escape, bounce or broken by no one except Aizen."

Would you say the same thing about Thanos, Xavier and Odin? Who each have resistance to much greater Mindfucking or has much better Mind ******* abilities? If the answer is yes then you are confirmed biased. If no then there should be no reason sasuke cant be immune to it seeing as basic Genjutsu does what KS already does and goes further into the realm of Mindcontrol/Killing/Paralysis/Memory Manipulation, etc. The only difference between the two is the method but the method doesnt change the fact that a character is seeing through the illusions being created.

Honestly this thread is a lost cause if people still ignore all this after reading these chapters.

 

[Quincy_Emperor]

Both "Lol Genjutsu/Lol Izanami" and "Lol KS" are ******* tiresome to argue for and against. I'm already sick of it.

 

[Akiretsu]

The only place KS cant be broken is in Bleach. Where noone has mindfucking resistance and other verses similar like Avatar, AoT, etc etc....but not Naruto. They do this crap on a regular basis.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

I have already said why Aizen should be able to use almost all Kidou further up.
Ichibei hit him before The Almighty Activated also. That entire point is moot. He can change futures like that. There will be future where KS was never applied, same for Ichibei's hax. Yet he could break Ichibei's and not Aizen's.


http://www.**********.com/bleach/609 - No Almighty

http://www.**********.com/bleach/609/12 -Pupils split while still called "Black Ant", activation of The Almighty.

http://www.**********.com/bleach/609/15 -Promptly changes an effect that happened in the past by chosing a new future where it has not happened.

Stopped at "almost"

Unless im missing something, that is not how a future works. You can't make a future where something never happened if it already happened before trying to make that said future. It's like saying you can make a future when George Washington was never president. He existed in the past and died long before you were even born so of course he wouldnt exist in the future. So why try and make a future without him when he was never in any future to begin with?

Besides, Aizens KS is far more everlasting within a victim than Ichibei's hax is so using both in the same example doesnt make much sense.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

@Akiretsu

I'd edit your comment or apologize. Whether he's wrong ot not, that isnt a reason to yell at him and it will only make things worse for yourself. And I dont want to see you getting in any trouble

 

[HokageMangaVox]

Almighty negates abilities used on Yhwach before and after its activation which is why Ichibe's power nolonger had any effect on him. The fact that KS wasnt broken means it doesnt give him Illusion resistance you idiot. Bleachverse doesn't have mindfucking resistance.

This happens when people get angry and salty in debates. They don't know what they even write down. Ichimonji was use on Yhwach before the activation of the Almighty as well as KS was use on him. Not even Ichimonji's power to remove all powers from Yhwach, could remove KS effects from him. Movements later, he activates his Almighty and guess what he removes Ichimonji's power from his body. Yet, he can't do the same with KS.


You're comparing Sasuke with Thanos, Xavier and Odin? I'm done.

Where did I said that Aizen or Yhwach had Ilussion resistance, base on the fact that he couldn't brake KS. If you accuse me of something, and insult me. Please, be sure to back up your facts. Wait you couldnt even prove your Sasuke clai, which I debunked alot of times. I doubt you will find it, in a wall of txt.

 

[Quincy_Emperor]

Are you aware than each future has a different past? Isn't there like a tree branch theory for this. Each branch can be minorly or majorly different.

http://www.**********.com/bleach/677/16

http://www.**********.com/bleach/677/17

http://www.**********.com/bleach/677/18

http://www.**********.com/bleach/678/16

"Transform" means to shape that grain of sand to his liking, whatever events or actions he wants to happen.

The ability is quite weird, but it can change stuff that as already happened to him. Ichibei's hax, his own death. All just by hopping to another grain.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Are you aware than each future has a different past? Isn't there like a tree branch theory for this. Each branch can be minorly or majorly different.
http://www.**********.com/bleach/677/16

http://www.**********.com/bleach/677/17

http://www.**********.com/bleach/677/18

http://www.**********.com/bleach/678/16

"Transform" means to shape that grain of sand to his liking, whatever events or actions he wants to happen.

The ability is quite weird, but it can change stuff that as already happened to him. Ichibei's hax, his own death. All just by hopping to another grain.

Unless this is something like DragonBall and their timelines, I highly doubt this being the case. Ive honestly never heard of a future having a different past. Even if so its complicated as a single past can lead to multiple different futures

If this is true then I suggest making a revision thread for Ywhach to give him past manipulation too, because it isnt listed for him so he is only considered manipulating the future.

 

[Quincy_Emperor]

The exceptions to "Almost" are Kidou invented after his time. Stopping due to my wording is a poor debating choice here. As I said before, there is reason to say he can use those Kido. Sasuke's is that he is the most powerful Genjutsu user alive, his brother could do it and his Rinnegan is the strongest/Sharingan among others.

A weaker Kido user could do them, Aizen is shown to know Forbidden Kidou himself, he is the strongest Kidou user by far. Small Continent Hado 90 or whatever it was.

 

[HokageMangaVox]

Anime4Life2020 wrote:

Unless im missing something, that is not how a future works. You can't make a future where something never happened if it already happened before trying to make that said future.

Yes, he can:

http://www.********.net/manga/chapter/154173_bleach-chapter-684/page_9

He sees "All" possible futures.

http://www.********.net/manga/chapter/152166_bleach-chapter-677/page_18

http://www.********.net/manga/chapter/152166_bleach-chapter-677/page_19

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Yes, he can:

http://www.********.net/manga/chapter/154173_bleach-chapter-684/page_9

He sees "All" possible futures.

http://www.********.net/manga/chapter/152166_bleach-chapter-677/page_18

http://www.********.net/manga/chapter/152166_bleach-chapter-677/page_19

Finish reading my comment and you will understand

 

[Akiretsu]

Yo in the fight Even Aizen told Ichigo he had no idea if KS would world on the Almighty. The fact that it did means Yhwach didnt have resistance. It has nothing to do with power Yhwach was already vastly strong.

KS should have been negated just like Ichimonji. It wasnt this means The Almighty cant negate mindfucking. It provides yhwach with no resistance. You cant use that and say because its Yhwach Sasuke cant either. No. Sasuke has resistance to this stuff. Unlike Yhwach.

 

[Akiretsu]

This happens when people get angry and salty in debates. They don't know what they even write down. Ichimonji was use on Yhwach before the activation of the Almighty as well as KS was use on him. Not even Ichimonji's power to remove all powers from Yhwach, could remove KS effects from him. Movements later, he activates his Almighty and guess what he removes Ichimonji's power from his body. Yet, he can't do the same with KS.


You're comparing Sasuke with Thanos, Xavier and Odin? I'm done.

Where did I said that Aizen or Yhwach had Ilussion resistance, base on the fact that he couldn't brake KS. If you accuse me of something, and insult me. Please, be sure to back up your facts. Wait you couldnt even prove your Sasuke clai, which I debunked alot of times. I doubt you will find it, in a wall of txt.

If you call debunking completely ignoring it and acting like you didnt see my references then sure you did. This time i even gave your lazy ass chapters. No excuses.