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He's not literally gonna go full undertale encounter and make the screen flash a few times. In an actual combat situation, he'll just spam gaster blasters + bones while keeping Kirby away with gravity manip and teleportation and a general intelligence advantage
 
Saikou The Lewd King said:
The first part comes from attack speed and being lazy, so not really physically fit. Off-guard is more so because the in-game rules were ginroed. It's usually one turn then another turn, but somehow 2 turns were done here.
 
Gotta love how Sans dodging attacks is apparently just speed, but Chara attacking twice is breaking the rules of the game and not just...taking him off guard.
 
Saikou The Lewd King said:
Gotta love how Sans dodging attacks is apparently just speed, but Chara attacking twice is breaking the rules of the game and not just...taking him off guard.
Because that's quite literally what they did. They didn't just randomly decide to attack twice in a single turn. They pushed the entire combat box over to a button that says "FIGHT" and then attacked Sans twice out of sequence, despite the fact he was trying to hold them in place via game mechanics.
 
Saikou The Lewd King said:
Ok, so the first part still makes no sense to me. none of those threads are objective representations of how Sans can fight and can be wrong. Teleport spam isn't even something Sans does in character until he gets serious.

I don't see why I need more then that when all of his wins and loses don't come from objective sources, and more subjective threads(that's not meant to insult just incase someone takes that as one). Yes, other threads are like that and people gave other reasonings, none of them are objective sources, therefore what I've laid down is perfectly reasonable. Can you show me any true refutation to how Sans can deal with Kirby rather then other threads saying such?

Alright.
 
he leads with gravity manip, bone barrages and gaster blasters simultaneously. He's one of the few characters who is explicitly willing to start all-out
 
@Azzy

I'm talking about Chara attacking twice right after that. This specific part isn't more or less legit than Sans dodging outside of his own turns.


@Sans

Just killing him before Kirby can get to him? "How Sans fights" in-game doesn't necessarily represent how he would actually fight, especially considering that Kirby and Chara are two vastly different characters. Also Sans wasn't even near being truly threatened before going serious.

It's not though. Sans can still dodge, attack, pin him down with soul manip, and kill him. Sans' high density of attacks means that Kirby can't just walk up to him and punch him, especially given Sans' teleportation ability. Like I said, you need more than that. Especially since Kirby is really not that bright, not enough for experience to matter.
 
Saikou The Lewd King said:
@Azzy
I'm talking about Chara attacking twice right after that. This specific part isn't more or less legit than Sans dodging outside of his own turns.
I'm aware. I'm just stating that the way he's actually taken off guard is that he's hit by something that should by no means have been able to actually hit him. Undertale is often too meta for its own good, when determining what's what.
 
Yeah, but someone who is supposedly dozen of times faster than Chara in reactions wouldn't let himself be hit mid-speech like that, especially since he actually saw the swing before it hit him. Just saying that if we assume Sans being able to dodge when he shouldn't be able to is just sheer speed, then we should assume that Chara being able to attack when they shouldn't be able to is just sheer speed as well.

Although we're kinda derailing thing. My apologies.
 
Saikou The Lewd King said:
How can he exactly kill Kirby before Kirby gets to him? Kirby is capable of dodging Sans attacks as other people equal to his attack speed are capable of doding, while Sans isn't used himself to dodging people equal to his speed. So before Sans can even get a good hit on him Kirby can hit him first. So how are we supposed to logically find out how Sans fights? You can't make the assumption that he just spams teleportation in-fights if we can't even use the one time where Sans actually fights. Chara and Kirby are different characters, yes, but why exactly would he suddenly spam teleportation on a different person? Hell, in Kirby's case compared to Chara, he seems far less of a threat to Sans due to not doing mass-genocide. I don't see what you mean by the last part, I don't re-call saying he was threatened before going serious, I just said he doesn't spam teleportation until he goes serious in character.

Sans dodging in this case is heavily neutured as the opponent he's facing he isn't faster then. He doesn't keep you pin downed in-character, he throws you around/down, and if we aren't using his in-game fight, you again can't even prove if he would actually do this in character. His high density of attacks he needs to stop doing from period to period due to how much it tires him. Kirby isn't neccesarily smart, but he's smart enough to know attacks being sent at him = bad. It makes it worse for sans since 1/3rd of his magic attack is capable of being dodged by aim dodging. Teleportation again is only done when he's serious, but since we can't use his in-game fight as a basis, then it revolves back the same problem I covered in the first paragraph. So as I said earilier, I don't see why I need more then that. I see Kirby has the upper hand in this fight, and the logical conclusion usually for who wins in a battle tends to be who has the better advantages.
 
GyroNutz said:
he leads with gravity manip, bone barrages and gaster blasters simultaneously. He's one of the few characters who is explicitly willing to start all-out
Ah my bad, I meant to say he wouldn't spam them all at once, not use them. He does do that huge attack first, but it greatly tires him to the point where he can't do another attack like that until his final attack before he just does nothing. Also Saikou said we can't use his in-game fight as a basis, so we can't even say he'd spam all of those in this fight.

 
He does spam teleportation of his enemies, teleporting them left and right. Assuming that he is incredibly faster than frisk is also somewhat unbelievable due to how he died. but the fact that kirby has no way to counter souldestruction means that it will die pretty much right away too,
 
Ricsi-viragosi said:
He does that when he's serious as I said above, and he died from an off-guard kill that broke the rules of the game. Sans doesn't have outright soul destruction, he can harm the soul to the point where it breaks.
 
Yes, and we assume him to use standard battle tactics by SBA.

While we have to ignore the game mechanics, his mentality is the same.


And the difference is none. Hes atacks can destroy a soul, the fact that frisks durability is high enough to survive it is not a point here. Its like saying someone with no durability can take an attack because the attack only damages a small amount another enemy.
 
Ricsi-viragosi said:
Uh, no SBA states we assume him to use his usual battle tactics, including the flaws. Sans flaw in this case would be to not get serious right from the get-go.

His attacks can destroy the soul overtime. If Frisk's durability is high enough, the same applies to Kirby. I don't see what you're analogy is trying to imply, Kirby has higher dura then Sans.
 
Uh, no we don't SBA states we assume him to use his usual battle tactics, including the flaws. Sans flaw in this case would be to not get serious right from the get-go.

No, every time he fought, he was 100% serious.

His attacks can destroy the soul overtime. If Frisk's durability is high enough, the same applies to Kirby. I don't see what you're analogy is trying to imply, Kirby has higher dura then Sans.

No, becausae a weak enough soul gets destroyed with one hit, and kirby's soul does not scale to his physical stats
 
Did you miss the "the REAL battle begins" part of his fight?

...He was using stuff like teleport before that too.

How is Kirby's soul weak? Weak osuls in UT tend to be from weak creatures and since we're equalizing verses as shown from SBA, Kirby's soul would scale to him since that's how SOUL tends to work in UT.

No. Verse equalallows the equalization of energies and such, but does not make someones soul (or anything) stronger. Its akin to saying that in naruto people with a lot of chakra are physicly strong too, so this glass canon now has higher dure than he has shown.


Frisk has soulhax resistance, kirby doesn't
 
Ricsi-viragosi said:
Can you show where he was using teleportation beforehand?

Um, SOUL in undertale is their equvilance of energy. The orange library book basically states that : (Orange Book)

"Because they are made of magic, monsters' bodies are attuned to their SOUL."

If a monster doesn't want to fight, its defenses will weaken.
And the crueler the intentions of our enemies, the more their attacks will hurt us.
Therefore, if a being with a powerful SOUL struck with the desire to kill...
Um, let's end the chapter here...
 
My bad, he does only use it after. Tough I do find it unlikely that he wouldn't as he would have enough time to react and isn't suicidal


Its the culmination of one's being. Sans damages both the soul and body. And also, Kirby can't really move around his soul around like frisk does (yes, fights like muffet make it clear that soul and its body is quiet a bit larger than frisks soul, so passing through the places where frisk could barely pass is unlikely.


Also, can kirby even enter its other forms on its own? I remember otherwise
 
Ricsi-viragosi said:
We're going by their battle tactics, Sans is to barrage you with attacks then dodging. Teleportation doesn't come into factor until the serious phase.

Why exactly? Frisk was introduced to the soul mode for the first time with flowey and he could move it around rather easily. Also, I thought we weren't using in-game fights as a source?

He has a pocket dimension within his belly that he can get previous powers from iirc. Even then, I think his 7-B AP/Dura comes from his base form.


EDIT: Nevermind, it's with his power-ups, so I'm assuming he's in power-up form then or this fight is confusing.
 
We're going by their battle tactics, Sans is to barrage you with attacks then dodging. Teleportation doesn't come into factor until the serious phase.

Yes, but to assume he wouldn't use it while in danger of death is unrealistic. Kind of like how he is forced to use the same moves in all timelines

We're going by their battle tactics, Sans is to barrage you with attacks then dodging. Teleportation doesn't come into factor until the serious phase.

Easy time or not, kirby wouldn't really be able to controll it well enough to make it dodge all attacks. Also, AP alone doesn't make a soul all that powerful, as frisks soul was far more powerful than any 7-C even while in his 8-C form.

He has a pocket dimension within his belly that he can get previous powers from iirc. Even then, I think his 7-B AP/Dura comes from his base form.

Yes,but I kinda remember him not being able to enter it. So unless he got a new power during the anime to do it, its unlikely.
 
Iirc he can enter it with some kind of mind projection but his body falls asleep. Haven't watched the anime in a long time, so I may be remembering wrong.
 
TriforcePower1 said:
Iirc he can enter it with some kind of mind projection but his body falls asleep. Haven't watched the anime in a long time, so I may be remembering wrong.
Yeah, I remember something akin to that too.
 
Ricsi-viragosi said:
How is it unrealistic when he doesn't use it when he's about to die? That's not putting anything down on Sans since it was basically a rule-breaking cheat that hits him, but he still doesn't actually use any sort of teleportation when he's about to die.

Again, why exactly? Frisk' soul wasn't more powerful then any 7-C when he was in his 8-C form. When he defeats a 7-C, he's in his 7-C form, hence why he was tiered as such when he faced a 7-C.

He goes in it at one point to get an apple iirc.
 
How is it unrealistic when he doesn't use it when he's about to die? That's not putting anything down on Sans since it was basically a rule-breaking cheat that hits him, but he still doesn't actually use any sort of teleportation when he's about to die.

Because at difference of chara, he has actual time to react. Just like how he teleported frisk every time they tried to strike before he died by the end of the fight.

Again, why exactly? Frisk' soul wasn't more powerful then any 7-C when he was in his 8-C form. When he defeats a 7-C, he's in his 7-C form, hence why he was tiered as such when he faced a 7-C.

Exept it as. A normal human soul is stronger than all of monsterkinds souls put together. DT makes them capable to oneshot and all that, but still.

He goes in it at one point to get an apple iirc.

non combat aplicable
 
Ricsi-viragosi said:
How is it unrealistic when he doesn't use it when he's about to die? That's not putting anything down on Sans since it was basically a rule-breaking cheat that hits him, but he still doesn't actually use any sort of teleportation when he's about to die.
Because at difference of chara, he has actual time to react. Just like how he teleported frisk every time they tried to strike before he died by the end of the fight.

Again, why exactly? Frisk' soul wasn't more powerful then any 7-C when he was in his 8-C form. When he defeats a 7-C, he's in his 7-C form, hence why he was tiered as such when he faced a 7-C.

Exept it as. A normal human soul is stronger than all of monsterkinds souls put together. DT makes them capable to oneshot and all that, but still.

He goes in it at one point to get an apple iirc.

non combat aplicable
He teleported Frisk with his attacks, not to dodge his attacks. He dodged them with his own speed. It doesn't correlate to him teleporting before you strike him, he doesn't do it in character, it's not a battle tactic of his.

Humans are stronger then monsters in their phyiscal forms, their soul forms are on par. (Blue Book)

While monsters are mostly made of magic, human beings are mostly made of water.
Humans, with their physical forms, are far stronger than us.
But they will never know the joy of expressing themselves through magic.
They'll never get a bullet-pattern birthday card...
? I never said he used it for combat, it's just an example of how he can get his powers.
 
He teleported Frisk with his attacks, not to dodge his attacks. He dodged them with his own speed. It doesn't correlate to him teleporting before you strike him, he doesn't do it in character, it's not a battle tactic of his.

At the very end he teleports you everyy time you try to reach the fight botton, thats as close as teleporting before attacking can get in-game.


Humans are stronger then monsters in their phyiscal forms, their soul forms are on par. (Blue Book)

What?
Did you ignore the fact that one human soul is equivalent to the entire underground? Like dude, its a very important plot point, and reason why killing even one monsters ruins pacifist route (in verse reason anyways)
 
Ricsi-viragosi said:
He teleports you before you touch the left side of the battle box , not the fight button. It's not that close since you're not attacking him, he's simply teleporting your soul away.

One human soul = the entire underground because of how stupidly stronger their physical form is. If monsters were truly that weaker to humans in their soul form, why would they even attempt to engage in battle?
 
He teleports you before you touch the left side of the battle box , not the fight button. It's not that close since you're not attacking him, he's simply teleporting your soul away.

Again, he is activly stopping youfrom getting to it. Or what, should he look at you pushing to it and wait just until your about to push it to teleport you? And again, as close as it can get with game mechanics


One human soul = the entire underground because of how stupidly stronger their physical form is. If monsters were truly that weaker to humans in their soul form, why would they even attempt to engage in battle?

You realize that it was a one sided masacre to the point where not one human fell and had their soul absorbed right? And no, they are more popwerful than all monster souls.
 
"* Humans are unbelievably strong.
* It would take the SOUL of nearly every monster...
* ... just to equal the power of a single human SOUL.
"- Ancient Glyphs in Waterfall
 
Ricsi-viragosi said:
So if it's game mechanics, why are we using it? Not to mention this is apart of his questionable attack where he basically never does his turn, so I don't know if this can even be added as an in-character feature. The only reason he's stopping you is so you don't get your turn next.

Yes, because their physical forms are stupidly stronger then them. Again, if they were truly that much weaker then humans in their soul form, how would they even had got 6 human souls to begin with?
 
Dude, you are taking a far to black and white aproach. The fact that game mechanics make it impossible to actauly potray sans teleporting an enemy attack, the fact that you try to reach the fight button and he teleports you is more than enough.


Yes, because their physical forms are stupidly stronger then them. Again, if they were truly that much weaker then humans in their soul form, how would they even had got 6 human souls to begin with?

Its almost like they were children
 
But here, highlighted the important parts:

  1. "A monster with a human SOUL...
    * A horrible beast with unfathomable power.
    * The humans, afraid of our power, declared war on us.
    * They attacked suddenly, and without mercy
    .
    " - Ancient Glyphs in Waterfall
  2. Ôåæ "* Humans are unbelievably strong.
    * It would take the SOUL of nearly every monster...
    * ... just to equal the power of a single human SOUL
    .
    "- Ancient Glyphs in Waterfall
  3. Ôåæ "* Not a single SOUL was taken, and countless monsters were turned to dust..." - Ancient Glyphs in Waterfall
  4. ! That's the store of Gerso, The Hammer Of Justice! He's the toughest monster that ever lived! He fought in the War of Humans and Monsters.... And he survived! He's a true hero! - Undyne when calling her outside Gerson's store
Seriously, surviving the war is enough to be seen as the toughest monster by undyne
 
Ricsi-viragosi said:
How would game mechanics make it impossible when he has featured teleportation within the fight? He's teleporting you from reaching the fight button so you don't engage in your turn next, it shouldn't even be added as part of in-character as he's doing soemthing that's basically going against the rules of the game.

Frisk a child fought Asgore, I see nothing wrong with asking the prior question. Not to mention monsters said in general humans are physically stronger.
 
Ricsi-viragosi said:
One second you're saying the human soul is unfamthombly more powerful, the next you're saying because they're children it makes sense the monsters took their souls. I don't mean to sound rude, but pick one.
 
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