Sans (Undertale) vs Suika Ibuki (Touhou)

[Drac32Drac]

An interesting matchup. Can Sans hit Suika? Can Suika hit Sans? Can either do significant damage? All interesting questions.

Rules...

Round 1: Both bloodlusted.

Round 2: Suika starts as mist, both bloodlusted.

 

[Drac32Drac]

Considering Sans is implied to be a lightweight in terms of durability, I'm inclined to say that if Suika can land a good hit, that Sans would go down. But Sans has the tools to take Suika down as well if he can land blows.

So, on to speed. Sans is fast... insanely fast if you consider teleportation. However, Suika can transform into a mist, spreading her presence across a wide area. This may possibly negate the benefit of teleporting in the first place. Also, Suika casually tosses around small black holes. I don't know if Sans is capable of teleporting that mist around. Suika seems to be fairly well built for going against speed, despite her underwhelming power level compared to the greats of Undertale.

It's too early to call it right now, but that's my preliminary analysis. As much as I love Sans, someone needs to put him in his place... he's doing too well in the VS matches. Is that someone Suika?

 

[Naitez]

I already put Sans against a guy with Infinite speed and the matchup was inconclusive. You really think Suika can do better?

 

[Drac32Drac]

Oh, I didn't see it... who was that?

Besides, mist form goes beyond speed. It's omnipresence over a limited area.

 

[Naitez]

DC Comics's Zoom. The reason he has infinite speed is due to him moving outside the flow of time.

 

[Drac32Drac]

Well, then I guess this match is pointless.

 

[Ciruno_Fortes_(COB)]

Tbh Sans probably blitzes before Suika can turn to mist if he's bloodlusted. But in character....


They get drunk at Reimu's shrine and piss her and Papyrus off :^ )

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Sans is kinda always bloodlusted. Really, it's either he doesn't fight at all or bloodlust.

 

[Ciruno_Fortes_(COB)]

He is? Didn't he take it easy the first time he met Frisk? If I recall he only went bloodlust mode on the Genocide Route

 

[Squid_peanut]

that's the point, we have to bloodlust him in versus because in character he won't fight most people

 

[Ciruno_Fortes_(COB)]

D'oh, just reread the above statement. I should sleep more

And just saw the stat page for both of them. Did Sans get nerfed? And in that case it might actually end up as a tie since both of them can technically not damage the other via reacting fast enough

 

[Squid_peanut]

D'oh, just reread the above statement. I should sleep more
And just saw the stat page for both of them. Did Sans get nerfed? And in that case it might actually end up as a tie since both of them can technically not damage the other via reacting fast enough

well sans still beat the universal chara possessed Frisk, so if suika's got blood on her hands this is going sans.

 

[Ciruno_Fortes_(COB)]

D'oh, just reread the above statement. I should sleep more
And just saw the stat page for both of them. Did Sans get nerfed? And in that case it might actually end up as a tie since both of them can technically not damage the other via reacting fast enough

well sans still beat the universal chara possessed Frisk, so if suika's got blood on her hands this is going sans.

That's the key thing. Suika can't touch Sans due to his speed and teleportation probably.

But there's nothing stopping or killing Suika either if she becomes a mist. At least I think. Her soul may turn blue if she was in oganic form but mist is more debatable

 

[Drac32Drac]

Just be thankful I didn't invoke CtC Suika

edit...For arguments sake, lets assume that the battle was limited to the confines of Gensokyo. In that instance, Suika's mist form is provably capable of encompassing Gensokyo in it's entirety. In that specific instance, it's essentially omnipresence... with respect to the constraints of the battlefield.

 

[Squid_peanut]

sans' attacks work on the soul, the culmination of ones self equally on any contact, so i think mist form may count

 

[Drac32Drac]

Youkai are spiritual beings first and foremost. The body has little to do with them. That's why the strong ones can be cut into pieces without causing any serious damage. If Suika split herself into a mist, there is no reason to assume that she isn't doing so with her soul as well, given how she was also able to sense everything around, and affect those around each mist particle. So, even if Sans' attacks do work, he'd have to get each and every piece of mist to get her.

 

[Squid_peanut]

Youkai are spiritual beings first and foremost. The body has little to do with them. That's why the strong ones can be cut into pieces without causing any serious damage. If Suika split herself into a mist, there is no reason to assume that she isn't doing so with her soul as well, given how she was also able to sense everything around, and affect those around each mist particle. So, even if Sans' attacks do work, he'd have to get each and every piece of mist to get her.

but that's the thing, even if sans bones touch a small part of someone, they effect the whole. on top of that they are based on simple contact with any part and not anything like impact so if a bone touches any part of the mist, and the mist is her, it would effect all of her

 

[Drac32Drac]

If Sans hits a part of the mist, it does't mean that it hits the whole mist. Otherwise, all those spiritual attacks that 2hus try to use against Suika would work as well. The fact that they don't further supports my point.

 

[Squid_peanut]

unless what you're referencing that is said to simultaniously all of ones self regardless of contact I don't think the comparison is apt

 

[Drac32Drac]

I'm not sure what you're getting at. In the Touhou verse, it is common lore that spiritual beings(youkai, gods, etc...) can split and merge their soul, without even weakening it. Just because those in Undertale can't do it doesn't mean that the touhou verse can't. Split literally means that they are actually independant of each other. The very concept of 'self' is fuzzy in that context.

There are multiple examples of this too. Flandre, Yuuka, the Moriya gods, the Yin Yang Orb(there is a god in it and it splits too when the orb is cloned), any summoned god.

 

[Squid_peanut]

I'm not sure what you're getting at. In the Touhou verse, it is common lore that spiritual beings(youkai, gods, etc...) can split and merge their soul, without even weakening it. Just because those in Undertale can't do it doesn't mean that the touhou verse can't. Split literally means that they are actually independant of each other. The very concept of 'self' is fuzzy in that context.
There are multiple examples of this too. Flandre, Yuuka, the Moriya gods, the Yin Yang Orb(there is a god in it and it splits too when the orb is cloned), any summoned god.

I'm not very familier with touhou and didn't know it was literally splitting oneself. so what would happen if sans gaster blastered colums of her away? could she reform or continue to live?

 

[Drac32Drac]

She would undoubtedly live. Via mist form, she is essentially capable of endlessly duplicating her soul. And she can reform as long as a single piece remains... though that says nothing about how long it would take to reform her body.

 

[Squid_peanut]

well, I guess this ends in a stalemate, unless there's any large scale attacks she can pull of from there

 

[Drac32Drac]

Well, she can casually toss mini black holes(from mist form). The thing is, she can start said black holes at his present location with spellcard rules off. Would that work?

 

[Squid_peanut]

if their legit black holes then yeah, she's faster and I doubt sans can read the face of mist

 

[Drac32Drac]

Oh, I almost forgot the massive fourth wall breaking feat... She literally dissolved the opponent's character's health bar directly.

 

[Squid_peanut]

okay, yeah my votes for anime

 

[Drac32Drac]

Suika is pretty broken, hax wise. I haven't even scratched the surface of what's been canonically revealed. I would be happy if someone else could verify my findings.


edit... For instance, she didn't break the moon, she broke the heavens... I.E. the sky, giving the illusion that she broke the moon.


edit2... Heh, does that mean that this wins? (note, non-canon picture)


One Million Oni

 

[Drac32Drac]

As for KR, I'm not really sure about that one. Oni aren't depicted as man eaters or killers in Touhou or Japanese lore. In both, the dangers from oni stems from the threat of abduction, which is why it's considered unwise to befriend an oni. There's even a special Japanese word for "spirited away by oni"(yes, Yukari isn't the only one that can do that).

The next part holds true for Touhou, but I'm unsure of the Japanese lore. High ranking oni, or kishin(not to be confused with Sagume Kishin) are dispatched from the Ministry of Right and Wrong to essentially end the lives of those that "have lived a little too long", like Seiga, and bring them before judgment. I'm hard pressed to believe that this kind of killing would be cause for KR to kick in, being essentially being bound by and enforcing the laws instead of causing trouble.

All of that said, her soul is undoubtedly stained in some way. Abductions alone are a pretty bad way to go, even if you survive somehow. Where do you think one goes once abducted? Ponder that for one moment whilst pondering KR.

 

[Northern_Wind00]

Alright, I'll come to the defense of sans once again, even though I'm a big fan of Touhou (My favorite characters being Marisa and Patchouli). There is absolutely no reason to assume that her ability to turn herself into mist renders her immune to the effects of Sans' bones. She still maintains her singular soul during the whole event and is not 'multiplying' it in any regard. She can regenerate, correct, but Sans' damaging capabilities do in fact extend to anything that touches the barest bit of the 'soul'. The nature of sans and all monsters attacks is disruption of the 'soul' as achieved through any kind of contact. Sans is particularly good at this ability, able to bypass any possible resistances (Up to and including true-invulnerability frames, simply ignoring them.) of a soul that continued to exist beyond the bounds of time and space, surviving the complete destruction of the multiverse it was contained within from even the barest touches of any part. Part, referrng of course to part of the Undertale definition of a SOUL, that being the culmination of their being, I.e. ANY part of them. The damage this causes to that culmination results in the shattering of said culmination, regardless of form, if damaged enough. The damage sans can do is enough to shatter the soul of Frisk/Chara fused at what appears to be close to maximum possible determination, which is a state that results in them existing outside of time and space entirely, in mere seconds at most, or far less if the timescale I've thrown around a few other times is taken into account. Furthermore, he's a reality warper of indeterminate level, capable of causing things to simply happen, without action to make them happen, such as adding keys to your keychain, shifting the direction of the one-way treadmill in his room, and even creating a (seemingly) infinite space within said room by virtue of you being able to walk away from the door, while supposedly being on a treadmill. It's more than possible for him to take her mist form as an invitation for a solid "Geeettttttt dunked on!!!" moment, due to the aforementioned nature of monster attacks, or through blue mode, shunt her soul into the ground, grounding her mist entirely and sweeping through it with a singular bone.

This is why Sans is a dangerous combatant, and why he's extremely hard to quantify or classify, as he has a few reality breaking elements that enable him to be EXTREMELY dangerous to beings that otherwise look like he shouldn't be able to hurt. His innate ability to break the rules of speed and fight control make it exceptionally hard to nail his ability to dodge or fight as well, as does his BIZZARE ability to retain memories and even physical objects from timelines that never happened and multiverses that were completely destroyed. it appears he is a walking bag of reality bending hax at every turn. This is also why so many matches with him turn out to be inconclusive, as the full limits of his abilities are undefined. Furthermore, his feats are measured against beings that can oneshot multiverses with simple daggers and survive clashes with reality consuming gods on planes beyond time and space, taking attacks that supposedly have the weight of all of reality behind them and simply refusing to die. Held up to those standards, sans is found more than capable of matching up to them in almost all regards bar the ability to reset.

 

[Drac32Drac]

That was a very nice Sans defense. Allow me to address some of the points for some (hopefully) healthy debate.

There IS reason to assume that mist form renders Suika immune to Sans' bones. During IaMP, Suika was absolutely everywhere in Gensokyo at the same time in mist form. During that time, she would have been hit by every single spiritual attack(just about everything is a spiritual attack in Touhou) from every battle. Spiritual attacks DO target the soul(yes even in the same context as in Undertale). If the mist was merely a singular soul spread out across the land, then she would have accumulated significant damage before the end of the game. She didn't, though, because each part of 'her' was isolated from the rest. For more proof that she is capable of dividing her soul, she IS in fact capable of splitting herself into multiple fully-formed smaller Suikas that each act and think independantly. And in touhou, the mind is considered a part of the soul... as evidenced by the very nature of the Konpaku clan, who's very name signifies the existance of a twin soul.

I'll say it once again. Just because no one in Undertale can safely split their soul doesn't mean that they cannot in Touhou. It is canonically proven to happen in several instances.

Her ability itself probably needs a clarification. Manipulaing density is much more abusable than simply making things big or small, heavy or light. It's much more broad than that. It is assembly and dispersion... of just about anything, including souls. Once you understand what that means, you realize that it IS a type high quality reality warping by itself. She has also demonstrated full control of this ability, even on others, while in mist form. Her ability isn't limited to physical or spiritual things. It can be applied to concepts as well. She gathered 'hearts' to the great feasts while spread across Gensokyo. Those involved had no defense against it, even if some were bewildered by it. Not Reimu, not Marisa, not even Yukari(who at least knew what was going on).

Yes, Sans does have some quality hax at his disposal. There is no denying that. However Suika does too. Suika is capable of far more than just simple Regenerationn. She can literally 'gather' both health and energy from her surroundings into herself, the surroundings including Sans himself. This is important because Sans does NOT instantly kill his opponent, but rather it takes time to do so.

As for manipulating the 'gravity' of the opponent's soul... I just don't see him being able to use it all across Gensokyo simultaneously. He hasn't shown anything anywhere near that level of hax. The key appearing is a neat trick, but ultimatly, can be explained away by simple slight of hand and telekenisis at most.

Also, Sans is NOT constantly aware of the timelines. This is FACT. If he were, he would have the tools to deal with Chara for good. Not only that, he doesn't even talk like someone with that ability. He's talks more like someone reading a weather report than someone actually looking at the weather. There is a huge difference between the two. The former would not have lost to Frisk/Chara because he would be able to predict his every move, the latter however, can fall to them.

With regards to memories, Sans is far from the only character to 'remember' odd things... even through a RESET. Most of the high quality monsters seem to 'remember' something from before the RESET. Sans is just slightly above that average.

As for Sans' opponent's quality. You cannnot assume that Frisk/Chara was anywhere near the level of obscenity displayed at the end of the genocide run. There were still one or two more victims after Sans, depending on how you look at it. And Flowey, even in that state, is FAR more dangerous than even Sans if he wants to be. Don't make the mistake of assuming that because Frisk/Chara became universal shortly after, that Sans himself dunked on a universal character. Impressive, yes, but very likely not universal Sans. Especially considering the non-linear progression of stats.

I could go on, but it's getting long as is. I'll leave it at these points for the time being, for some good, healthy, debate.

 

[Northern_Wind00]

1.)I'll say it once again. Just because no one in Undertale can safely split their soul doesn't mean that they cannot in Touhou. It is canonically proven to happen in several instances.

2.) Her ability itself probably needs a clarification. Manipulaing density is much more abusable than simply making things big or small, heavy or light. It's much more broad than that. It is assembly and dispersion... of just about anything, including souls. Once you understand what that means, you realize that it IS a type high quality reality warping by itself. She has also demonstrated full control of this ability, even on others, while in mist form. Her ability isn't limited to physical or spiritual things. It can be applied to concepts as well. She gathered 'hearts' to the great feasts while spread across Gensokyo. Those involved had no defense against it, even if some were bewildered by it. Not Reimu, not Marisa, not even Yukari(who at least knew what was going on).

3.) Yes, Sans does have some quality hax at his disposal. There is no denying that. However Suika does too. Suika is capable of far more than just simple Regenerationn. She can literally 'gather' both health and energy from her surroundings into herself, the surroundings including Sans himself. This is important because Sans does NOT instantly kill his opponent, but rather it takes time to do so.

4.) The key appearing is a neat trick, but ultimatly, can be explained away by simple slight of hand and telekenisis at most.

5.) Also, Sans is NOT constantly aware of the timelines. This is FACT. If he were, he would have the tools to deal with Chara for good. Not only that, he doesn't even talk like someone with that ability. He's talks more like someone reading a weather report than someone actually looking at the weather.

6.) With regards to memories, Sans is far from the only character to 'remember' odd things... even through a RESET. Most of the high quality monsters seem to 'remember' something from before the RESET. Sans is just slightly above that average.

7.) Don't make the mistake of assuming that because Frisk/Chara became universal shortly after, that Sans himself dunked on a universal character. Impressive, yes, but very likely not universal Sans. Especially considering the non-linear progression of stats.

I had just finished writing this all out when my cat erased hit by hitting the back button on my mouse. I'll rewrite it now.

1.) I concede this point. I hadn't remembered that her clones were capable of posessing individual consciousnesses, which is proof positive of this point. However, this points to several limitations in her ability as well, as she has to be around everything to manipulate it all (Hence the need to turn into mist and cover everything to manipulate it. Since the mist can be affected by sans' bones (As it is a part of her) he should have no trouble clearing it from around himself), and she has to consciously be ready and willing to react in such a manner /nigh/ instantly to not die to sans' onslaught.

2.) And yet, in her own series, in the game in question, she was defeated by the majority of the cast in the majority of storylines, to the point where her plans came to naught and she lost influence over the events. Often in combat, no less. If she could maintain her mist form indefinitely, then there should be no reason, for instance, that Marisa was able to defeat her in open combat as readily and definitively as she did.

3.) Sans kills a nigh universal Frisk/Chara fusion in 2.2 seconds, or, if my timescale from This thread is accepted, 1/298054202-th of a second. Bear in mind this is a lowball figure for how fast this actually occurs.

4.) Sans never displays telekinesis anywhere in the entire game. He is across the room from you when it happens, the key is not visible coming to you and sans is not visible placing it on you. To assume this was telekinesis is absurd. Furthermore, the other examples I mentioned are relevant as well, especially the example of created space. You can walk infinitely far into the darkness that IS his room, watching the door disappear offscreen, and not have moved at all, supposedly having been on a treadmill the whole time, even though it is literally impossible.

5.) Sans is aware enough to know that Chara is going to destroy everything even before you do, and you are 'in control' at the time. Furthermore, he is aware of what you've done in past timelines, all the time. Such as killing his brother changing his dialouge across all future playthroughs when it comes to talking about fighting his brother.

6.) He also maintains a physical object from a timeline and/or multiverse that was completely undone, or indeed, post pacifist and genocide, from a multiverse that was completely destroyed, that being the photograph of you and your friends, all on the surface, together. That's more than just a cut above the others, for sure.

7.) By the nature of Determination, that doesn't particularly make sense. Sans is /the final/ challenge, and is, by his very nature, worthy of as much Determination as anything that comes after him. The HP increase after he dies is a pittance, and even without extrapolating it linearly, the two beings you kill after him give you no experience or LV. Chara, functionally speaking, only requires you to go further to get full control. The determination is already there. Even despite this, Sans is capable of killing Frisk/Chara, and is indeed, expected to, again and again.

 

[Drac32Drac]

I had just finished writing this all out when my cat erased hit by hitting the back button on my mouse. I'll rewrite it now.

1.) I concede this point. I hadn't remembered that her clones were capable of posessing individual consciousnesses, which is proof positive of this point. However, this points to several limitations in her ability as well, as she has to be around everything to manipulate it all (Hence the need to turn into mist and cover everything to manipulate it. Since the mist can be affected by sans' bones (As it is a part of her) he should have no trouble clearing it from around himself), and she has to consciously be ready and willing to react in such a manner /nigh/ instantly to not die to sans' onslaught.

2.) And yet, in her own series, in the game in question, she was defeated by the majority of the cast in the majority of storylines, to the point where her plans came to naught and she lost influence over the events. Often in combat, no less. If she could maintain her mist form indefinitely, then there should be no reason, for instance, that Marisa was able to defeat her in open combat as readily and definitively as she did.

3.) Sans kills a nigh universal Frisk/Chara fusion in 2.2 seconds, or, if my timescale from This thread is accepted, 1/298054202-th of a second. Bear in mind this is a lowball figure for how fast this actually occurs.

4.) Sans never displays telekinesis anywhere in the entire game. He is across the room from you when it happens, the key is not visible coming to you and sans is not visible placing it on you. To assume this was telekinesis is absurd. Furthermore, the other examples I mentioned are relevant as well, especially the example of created space. You can walk infinitely far into the darkness that IS his room, watching the door disappear offscreen, and not have moved at all, supposedly having been on a treadmill the whole time, even though it is literally impossible.

5.) Sans is aware enough to know that Chara is going to destroy everything even before you do, and you are 'in control' at the time. Furthermore, he is aware of what you've done in past timelines, all the time. Such as killing his brother changing his dialouge across all future playthroughs when it comes to talking about fighting his brother.

6.) He also maintains a physical object from a timeline and/or multiverse that was completely undone, or indeed, post pacifist and genocide, from a multiverse that was completely destroyed, that being the photograph of you and your friends, all on the surface, together. That's more than just a cut above the others, for sure.

7.) By the nature of Determination, that doesn't particularly make sense. Sans is /the final/ challenge, and is, by his very nature, worthy of as much Determination as anything that comes after him. The HP increase after he dies is a pittance, and even without extrapolating it linearly, the two beings you kill after him give you no experience or LV. Chara, functionally speaking, only requires you to go further to get full control. The determination is already there. Even despite this, Sans is capable of killing Frisk/Chara, and is indeed, expected to, again and again.

1.) As far as I know, she just needs to be 'close enough' to sense what's around her. There's no reason to suspect that she actually needs to be inside of her opponent to affect them from mist form. Yes, Sans sould be able to clear mist particles, but it's a little absurd to suggest that he is going to clear ALL of the relevant mist particles before Suika could counter. As for speed, while she isn't among the top tier in Touhou, she is still at least Relatavistic. Fast enough to start applying her own hax before Sans could possible clear all of the mist... which she does have some that she can apply as a zero point effect.

2.) Actually, the incident didn't stop for some time after the fact, indicating that the cast were not actually successful in stopping it(Reimu included). She DID maintain mist form for at a minimum of days... likely weeks or even months during that incident. You have to realize that winning a spellcard duel in the games does not necessarily indicate that the character themselves actually won. Cirno in PoFV is an excellent example of this. The only reason Suika came out of the mist was curiosity at the protagonist.

3.) Again, there is no telling how much stronger Chara/Frisk had increased AFTER killing both Sans and Asgard/Flowey. You don't really get a chance to investigate the effects of it other than Asgard goes down in one shot, and Flowey just gets curbstomped. Suika is also not a genocidal maniac, either, which should reduce(but not eliminate) KR's effectiveness on her. Enough to give Suika a chance to do something. Suika isn't going to be outspeeding Sans... not by a long shot. But Sans isn't going to be instantly killing her either. Both sides should be able to get blows in.

4.) My mistake on that one. Yes, he does have the ability to, at a minimum, teleport things around. As for the treadmill example, that kind of spatial manipulation is not unheard of in Touhou. Sakuya has the same powers over space(but it's not confirmed to be combat ready as far as I know), Komachi, however, can do it at combat speeds.

5.) Again, if Sans knew without a shadow of a doubt what would happen in the future of the current timeline, he would just stop Chara/Frisk near the beginning and be done with it. He doesn't talk or act like someone who is completely aware of all the timelines at all times. Rather, he acts like someone that had previously looked at the timelines in a broad sense and has a better than average 'deja vu' sense.

6.) That... is impressive. But is there any proof that this is a combat feat? Or is it through the use of his 'secret' machine? There is enough doubt on this point to exclude it as a combat feat unless more evidence is brought forth.

7.) You don't get the EXP and LV because you aren't in control any more.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Just want to point out that because of the update, #6 is no longer true and now a more obvious allusion to his connection to Gaster.

 

[Drac32Drac]

I kinda figured that it was related to those 'experiments'. But seeing some supporting evidence to that is nice.

 

[Northern_Wind00]

Just want to point out that because of the update, #6 is no longer true and now a more obvious allusion to his connection to Gaster.

Actually, no, Azathoth. The only text that was changed was the pre-pacifist ending in-lab text. It still adds the bit about your picture after you finished a pacifist run.

1.) Fair enough, but that's also assuming she starts in mist form, and even if she does, that she can maintain it /in combat/ for that long.

2.) That's not entirely accurate either. The effects of her gathering took a while to wear off, but when she lost against the majority of those she faced, she still lost then, it ended then. That's from what I saw in Touhou myself.

3.) Their strength is primarily dependent on determination before anything else. Sans is capable of killing them dispite being in a state of maximum determination while fighting him. As evidenced from the fact that he is, himself, such a mighty obstacle. The greater the obstacle, the greater the determination. All of my numers came from KRless calculations, actually. If KR is factored, he kills even faster.

4.) Thank you. The point is that it is something he can do.

5.) I never stated that sans knows what /will/ happen without the shadow of a doubt. He does, however, know what /might/ happen, for sure. He knows where the timelines will end if you keep killing things, and he tries to warn you about it. He also knows what you did without a shadow of a doubt and has good enough prediction to dodge all of your attacks. The only attack that hits him breaks the rules of time in his universe to attack twice, and it's not controlled by you. Chara swings the second attack, directly, without your input.

6.) The machine is broken. It was broken in timelines before post-pacifist and it's still broken in ones that are post-pacifist. No one knows how he did this, the machine is speculated, but not confirmed. but it's an interesting note about how much he actually knows, but that's about it. It's not like I'm suggesting he can combat trick in things from outside of his own multiverse or anything. *shrug*

7.) Which says it all, doesn't it? You are the source of the determination. Sans is the highest determination point in all of Genocide.

 

[Drac32Drac]

Actually, no, Azathoth. The only text that was changed was the pre-pacifist ending in-lab text. It still adds the bit about your picture after you finished a pacifist run.

1.) Fair enough, but that's also assuming she starts in mist form, and even if she does, that she can maintain it /in combat/ for that long.

2.) That's not entirely accurate either. The effects of her gathering took a while to wear off, but when she lost against the majority of those she faced, she still lost then, it ended then. That's from what I saw in Touhou myself.

3.) Their strength is primarily dependent on determination before anything else. Sans is capable of killing them dispite being in a state of maximum determination while fighting him. As evidenced from the fact that he is, himself, such a mighty obstacle. The greater the obstacle, the greater the determination. All of my numers came from KRless calculations, actually. If KR is factored, he kills even faster.

4.) Thank you. The point is that it is something he can do.

5.) I never stated that sans knows what /will/ happen without the shadow of a doubt. He does, however, know what /might/ happen, for sure. He knows where the timelines will end if you keep killing things, and he tries to warn you about it. He also knows what you did without a shadow of a doubt and has good enough prediction to dodge all of your attacks. The only attack that hits him breaks the rules of time in his universe to attack twice, and it's not controlled by you. Chara swings the second attack, directly, without your input.

6.) The machine is broken. It was broken in timelines before post-pacifist and it's still broken in ones that are post-pacifist. No one knows how he did this, the machine is speculated, but not confirmed. but it's an interesting note about how much he actually knows, but that's about it. It's not like I'm suggesting he can combat trick in things from outside of his own multiverse or anything. *shrug*

7.) Which says it all, doesn't it? You are the source of the determination. Sans is the highest determination point in all of Genocide.

1. ) The only reason she can't do it 'in combat' for that long is for the same reason Reimu can't 'float' above reality for that long. It'd be a direct violation of the spell card rules for being too cheap.

2. ) This isn't really a good debate point because of the spellcard rules themselves. Not to mention the questionable canonicity of each of the endings. They can't all be canon. My only thing to add is "Many fans assume that Ending #1 in all games is what actually happened (although there's no proof to this other than the numbering), but if this is the case, then Reimu has won all of her fights except one, against Suika Ibuki in Immaterial and Missing Power." Considering what Suika is, what she does, and how ill prepared Reimu is for her, it's not surprising if this is true actually.

3. ) Frisk/Chara can't possibly be at maximum determination before defeating Sans because there is still room for growth upon finishing the fight. Given that the growth is likely exponential in nature, going from LV19 to LV20 is a HUGE difference, perhaps even orders of magnitude greater than from LV1 to LV19.

5. ) It's heavily implied that a good deal of this 'prediction' also comes from reading the character's face/intent/etc... I don't really see Sans reading the face of mist.

7. ) Just because you lose control doesn't mean that Chara isn't getting stronger from the remaining kills. You can't possibly know because the game doesn't show you one way or the other. It is enough to raise reasonable doubt on that point.

 

[Drac32Drac]

One more thing supporting Suika's power level. Here's a quote from Suika herself... "in my swarm of pandemonium, in the forgathering of oni, no mere Human or youkai can withstand!"

Need I remind everyone that Oni do NOT lie. If she said it, it is meant to be taken as fact... at least within the context of the Touhou verse that is. And that includes the likes of Reimu, Marisa, Yukari, the Vampires, Sakuya, Yuuka, etc...

 

[WarriorWare]

Pffff, Undertale is to Touhou as HuniePop is to Puzzle & Dragons: focused on feelings and 10000000000x easier. Sans gets rekt by a real boss.

I really wish I knew anything about Touhou other than that it's really really hard so that I could contribute to the topic instead of make dumb jokes like that one, but overall, Suika has way the heck more range than Frisk had. It's sure as heck easier to dodge a knife than the oh-my-gosh-what that goes on in Touhou.

 

[Drac32Drac]

The problem is that the top tier of Undertale can curbstomp just about everyone in Touhou. After completion, Chara/Frisk/Omega Flowey/Asriel are literally so far above just about every Touhou character that it's not even worth comparing. Sans is interesting because he's NOT one of the god tiers, has good hax, and has low HP(for endgame Undertale). It means that high end Touhou characters, if they can land blows, can seriously damage him. That's the whole point of this particular matchup.

For the record, last I checked, Sans is inconclusive vs. Beerus due to Sans' hax giving him a reasonable chance. That should give you an idea of just what level he is at.