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Sans' KARMA revisions

Apatheticskell

Apatheticskell

1,195
56
KARMA or KR dies actually do damage based on sins.

first of all whenever you get hit by KR the lines you get are the following.

-You felt your sins crawlin on your back.

-You felt your sins weighing on your neck.

-You felt KARMA coursing through your veins.

and Second of all during the Asriel pacifist fight we reach a section where we are supposed to fight Sans and Papyrus.

Every single Attack we get hit by does'nt deal KR damage for some reason and those lines are'nt seen anywhere. Sans is attacking we know this much since Asriel's controlling him in order to kill Frisk as seen in the lost soul fight. Keep in mind this is a pacifist run and Frisk has'nt committed sins hence why KR damage won't work on them but in the genocide route it does.
 
I agree with this.

Also, since we talk about the sins doing via murders: Why do we treat LOVE as a sort of power level? It's pretty explained that it's definitely not (and if I'm not wrong, Snowdin's library said that monsters are weak against attack used by someone with bad emotions, Toriel also implied that when she die on genocide run).
 
We used to do things like this but then it got rejected. Here's why.

KARMA is the name of the attack, doesn't changed how the attack works. By your logic Superman's infinite mass punch would be High 3-A which it has never shown to be.

And those attacks couldn't just belong to Papyrus because? None of those attack patterns match Sans and none of the stuff specific to him is used. No Gaster Blasters, no platforms, no teleportation, nothing. Nothing suggests Sans is attacking you there.
 
Asriel is controlling Sans and there are a few slower versions of Sans' attack patterns.

If Sans was'nt attacking he would've resisted the mind control. Either this gives him minor resistance to mind control or KR does damage based on sins.

There are bone being thrown at you with Sans' attack patterns and blue soul being used and KR is nowhere to be seen.
 
Apatheticskell said:
Asriel is controlling Sans and there are a few slower versions of Sans' attack patterns.

If Sans was'nt attacking he would've resisted the mind control. Either this gives him minor resistance to mind control or KR does damage based on sins.

There are bone being thrown at you with Sans' attack patterns and blue soul being used and KR is nowhere to be seen.
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No, he isn't. You're talking directly to the souls Asriel absorbed and they each say things that suggest they don't remember you at all. Once they're memory is jogged then they remember you. Sans doesn't really have a reason to attack you if he doesn't remember you while everyone else does. Before you bring up the 'you'd already be dead' bit, he only says this after he's sure yourthe one messing with time. "You haven't died once! What's with that look? Am I wrong?"

Citation needed for Sans' attack patterns as that's never shown from what I recall.

Papyrus also does the Blue Soul trick. It's not specific to Sans.
 
No, he isn't. You're talking directly to the souls Asriel absorbed and they each say things that suggest they don't remember you at all. Once they're memory is jogged then they remember you. Sans doesn't really have a reason to attack you if he doesn't remember you while everyone else does. Before you bring up the 'you'd already be dead' bit, he only says this after he's sure yourthe one messing with time. "You haven't died once! What's with that look? Am I wrong?"

Citation needed for Sans' attack patterns as that's never shown from what I recall.

Papyrus also does the Blue Soul trick. It's not specific to Sans.

If you look at the lost soul fight you'll see one of Sans' attack patterns but I only remember the 3rd and 2nd Attack patterns from the Sans fight.
 
I'm not knowledgeable about UT but I heard people justifying that Sans attacks were intangible and hit directly the souls because the bones don't disappear when they hit you and you don't have recovery frame when you're hit either.

So, the question is: do the attacks also had these 2 properties during this Asriel mind control sequence or not? If not, it's pretty clear Sans didn't attack.
 
Golfgan said:
I'm not knowledgeable about UT but I heard people justifying that Sans attacks were intangible and hit directly the souls because the bones don't disappear when they hit you and you don't have recovery frame when you're hit either.

So, the question is: do the attacks also had these 2 properties during this Asriel mind control sequence or not? If not, it's pretty clear Sans didn't attack.
Click to expand...
The attacks are intangible during the Asriel fight.

@Lonky if Asriel did'nt posses Sans he'd never insult us as a lost soul.
 
Lonky The Hero said:
Sins crawling on your back is a phrase for guilt. Karma does not deal damage based on sins. Asriel possessed him during the Pacifist fight. There's no proof man.
Click to expand...
Where did you get the idea that Asriel possessed him?
 
Dragonboi9191 said:
You do relize if KR isn't Karma, then he becomes broken.
Click to expand...
No he doesn't. We've been assuming that for months and he still has plenty of losses. And even if it did, so what? Our job is to keep the profiles as accurate as possible.
 
So, if everyone, even Alphys attacks us when Asriel controlling them, than it is safe to assume that Sans attacks us as well.

Every attack of Sans in genoside route is "filled" with KARMA. While when he controlled by Asriel he dosn't use it.

I guess there is two ways to explain this. Either KARMA is based on sins or on something similar, or Asriel not conrolling Sans to fullest extent. While I don't remember well, I do belive that when we fight Asriel, the other lost souls uses their full potential, am I right?
 
MrKerf said:
So, if everyone, even Alphys attacks us when Asriel controlling them, than it is safe to assume that Sans attacks us as well.
Every attack of Sans in genoside route is "filled" with KARMA. While when he controlled by Asriel he dosn't use it.

I guess there is two ways to explain this. Either KARMA is based on sins or on something similar, or Asriel not conrolling Sans to fullest extent. While I don't remember well, I do belive that when we fight Asriel, the other lost souls uses their full potential, am I right?
Click to expand...
Sans never attacks the player. Ever. Only during the Genocide Route does he fight, and even then, it's only becuase he knows that if you get past him, you'll destroy all of the timelines. He won't even fight you after you kill his own brother. Even if he is attacking you, the only reason he doesn't do KR damage is because of game balance. It'd make that section much harder.
 
Superweeb2987 said:
Sans never attacks the player. Ever. Only during the Genocide Route does he fight, and even then, it's only becuase he knows that if you get past him, you'll destroy all of the timelines. He won't even fight you after you kill his own brother. Even if he is attacking you, the only reason he doesn't do KR damage is because of game balance. It'd make that section much harder.
Click to expand...
He never attacks us when he is conscious. However when he is controlled by Asriel he is clearly attacking us (well not clearly, but again, it is safe to assume this). Well, what you saying about game balance is only game mechanics. If he can do KR naturally, he would do it everytime.
 
MrKerf said:
So, if everyone, even Alphys attacks us when Asriel controlling them, than it is safe to assume that Sans attacks us as well.

Every attack of Sans in genoside route is "filled" with KARMA. While when he controlled by Asriel he dosn't use it.

I guess there is two ways to explain this. Either KARMA is based on sins or on something similar, or Asriel not conrolling Sans to fullest extent. While I don't remember well, I do belive that when we fight Asriel, the other lost souls uses their full potential, am I right?
Click to expand...
Depends on if you count 'easiest to dodge attacks' as full potential.
 
MrKerf said:
He never attacks us when he is conscious. However when he is controlled by Asriel he is clearly attacking us (well not clearly, but again, it is safe to assume this). Well, what you saying about game balance is only game mechanics. If he can do KR naturally, he would do it everytime.
Click to expand...
Exactly. The reason it doesn't do KARMA is a game mechanic. Otherwise it would.
 
>Using Asrial's fight as an argument

Everyone in this fight was now strong enough to hurt 2-B Frisk. Whether or not Sans used KR in this fight wouldn't have mattered at all.
 
Saikou The Lewd King said:
>Using Asrial's fight as an argument
Everyone in this fight was now strong enough to hurt 2-B Frisk. Whether or not Sans used KR in this fight wouldn't have mattered at all.
Click to expand...
Frisk had 2-B dura all along you just don't want to admit it
 
Because nothing implies Asriel forced everyone to use everything they had? And that Sans somehow resisted it despite being in the same state as anyone else? If anything, it's just due to trying to avoid genocide route spoiler.
 
Canonically it so 't make sense just to avoid genocide spoilers. I think Sans is just resisting Asriel. Even Alphys attacked of all people shouldn't that be proof.
 
"I think Sans is just resisting Asriel"

Even though there is absolutely no proofs of this outside of "Sans didn't use all of his attacks" when other characters also didn't use 100% of their arsenals.
 
And you lack exactly all the proofs needed to have this accepted. Him not using his genocide-specific attacks isn't enough to prove mind control resistance on a 2-B scale from a character with absolutely no reasons to resist mind control.
 
I am Necro Ma I'm sorry, I just want to point out something that no one mentioned.

During Sans and Papyrus' fight as lost souls, all patterns belong to Papyrus' fight, but with a few added bones. So yeah, Sans is indeed attacking (Or Papyrus is putting more effort, I think the former makes more sense).

Why his attacks don't do KR damage? Because that's something he has to, for the lack of a better term, "manually turn on" (Look at the right of the HP bar, you will see what I mea).

Otherwise, read the replies above.
 
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