Adding Law Manip to Monster Physiology

[StrymULTRA]

What you said was pointless tbh. You said smth that everyone knows

So if everyone knows, then how is this Law Hax?

 

[ShionAH]

So if everyone knows, then how is this Law Hax?

What I am saying is you cannot call Omega Flowey a monster, we are not debating anything rn lol

 

[StrymULTRA]

Well, I have already gave my reasons to disagree. Let's see what the OP says.

 

[Armorchompy]

In the Photoshop Flowey battle, we witness a stark departure from the traditional turn-based mechanics that define monster FIGHTs. Unlike every other battle, this fight lacks any turns and is a full-on chaotic thingy, as seen by the boss fight here

This deviation is significant because Photoshop Flowey is the only non-monster character we face in the game.

that's not the only real time fight in UT, though

 

[ShionAH]

that's not the only real time fight in UT, though

When undyne hits you, you get into a turn based fight once again. Proving the OP correct

 

[StrymULTRA]

When undyne hits you, you get into a turn based fight once again. Proving the OP correct

...no? It only turns in a bullet hell attack, which does not give Frisk a turn.

Also, people were able to use attacks in Flowey's turn, meaning again that one's turn does not actually stop someone from attacking, heck, Chara literally did attack during Sans' turn.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Oh yeah, the FIGHT, ACT etc do not appear when Frisk gets hit.

Meaning that the fight does not become a turn-based one.

 

[Armorchompy]

When undyne hits you, you get into a turn based fight once again. Proving the OP correct

OK but like, the entire fight is real time, which goes against what OP is arguing, it's just the attack that activates that. If you dodge them all it's completely real time. Hell arguably that's just a representation of needing to avoid the spears once they get too close given that the UI doesn't appear.

 

[Armorchompy]

Also the entirety of the Yellow Soul just goes against this completely given that it allows you to attack freely during your enemy's turn.

 

[ShionAH]

OK but like, the entire fight is real time, which goes against what OP is arguing, it's just the attack that activates that. If you dodge them all it's completely real time. Hell arguably that's just a representation of needing to avoid the spears once they get too close given that the UI doesn't appear.

Undynes spear literally hits frisk but after that Frisk gets into the fight mode and can actually dodge and not take damage when they should have taken damage because they got hit. Which means Undyne has to get into the fight mode to attack

 

[ShionAH]

Also the entirety of the Yellow Soul just goes against this completely given that it allows you to attack freely during your enemy's turn.

Different colour souls cannot be used since all of them are supposed to break some kind of mechanic, such as Green soul giving us a shield but making it so we are paralyzed, blue soul somehow changing gravity and rasing the question “Does frisk fly or smth”

They all mess stuff up in the game so Yellow messing this up is very normal

 

[StrymULTRA]

Undynes spear literally hits frisk but after that Frisk gets into the fight mode and can actually dodge and not take damage when they should have taken damage because they got hit. Which means Undyne has to get into the fight mode to attack

Oh yeah, the FIGHT, ACT etc do not appear when Frisk gets hit.

Meaning that the fight does not become a turn-based one.

You clearly ignore the things which debunk your points.

Plus you never explained why:

• Frisk can get damaged during their own turn against Mettaton
• Chara attacking during Sans and Asgore's turn
• Monsters being able to use their attacks during Flowey's turn.

 

[ShionAH]

You clearly ignore the things which debunk your points.

You have a massive ego problem, I didnt respond because I didnt even see it.

Plus you never explained why:

• Frisk can get damaged during their own turn against Mettaton

What do you mean?

• Chara attacking during Sans and Asgore's turn

Chara breaks the turn system. Its literally on Sans’s profile

• Monsters being able to use their attacks during Flowey's turn.

Flowey was fighting all of them so its not so weird for them to attack since flowey was literally attacking them too

 

[StrymULTRA]

You have a massive ego problem, I didnt respond because I didnt even see it.

1. Skill issue
2. Then debunk it lmao

What do you mean?

I got misreminded because I assumed the bombs explode if you don't defuse them but Alphys does by herself.

Chara breaks the turn system. Its literally on Sans’s profile

Thus it debunks OP's claim that everyone can't attack during one's turn. Chara can, Flowey can, lol.

Flowey was fighting all of them so its not so weird for them to attack since flowey was literally attacking them too

It was still his turn, given that they have interrupted his attacks with their own. If OP was correct, then none of them should have even been able to use their attacks.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Plus, again, this is not even a power monsters should have because this is a verse mechanic, no one can manipulate it like Sans did nor make it something in their powers.

 

[Armorchompy]

With due respect you're just like, taking every single inconsistency and say it's P&A, nah man it's just not a consistent thing, Toby Fox just thought it'd be cool to screw with the main combat system during certain boss fights (and he was right), that doesn't mean it's something indexable.

 

[StrymULTRA]

With due respect you're just like, taking every single inconsistency and say it's P&A, nah man it's just not a consistent thing, Toby Fox just thought it'd be cool to screw with the main combat system during certain boss fights (and he was right), that doesn't mean it's something indexable.

Are you talking with me or Shion?

 

[Armorchompy]

Are you talking with me or Shion?

shion

 

[ShionAH]

1. Skill issue

1. Then debunk it lmao

I am gonna ignore it just so you get angey

I got misreminded because I assumed the bombs explode if you don't defuse them but Alphys does by herself.

Haha

Thus it debunks OP's claim that everyone can't attack during one's turn. Chara can, Flowey can, lol.

He doesnt say everyone, sana literally shows its wrong. Some monsters are just built different

It was still his turn, given that they have interrupted his attacks with their own. If OP was correct, then none of them should have even been able to use their attacks.

Flowey isnt a monster bozo so there is probably smth else

Holy **** you guys keep pumping comments, I am just gonna stop arguing and watch what happens since I am neutral on this anyway

 

[Lou_change]

Flowey isnt a monster bozo so there is probably smth else

the same reason Frisk can't attack on their turn

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

If we take it as an in-universe mechanic, I wonder, would Location pages have it?

 

[Lou_change]

If we take it as an in-universe mechanic, I wonder, would Location pages have it?

I don't think so if it still exists when Asriel nukes everything it seems more like them exploiting game mechanics

 

[StrymULTRA]

He doesnt say everyone, sana literally shows its wrong. Some monsters are just built different

If you argue it being a verse mechanic, then anyone is under it, no exceptions. Plus it was agreed that it's just Sans' weakness rather than Chara being strong.

Flowey isnt a monster bozo so there is probably smth else

Neither Flowey nor Frisk/Chara are monsters yet in fights involving them the "only in your turn you can attack" thing was broken.

If we take it as an in-universe mechanic, I wonder, would Location pages have it?

Not really iirc.

 

[James_Plays_4_Games]

Like I've written, this thread should be trying to propose a similar yet different revision. Game mechanics are canon in Undertale, and some characters can manipulate aspects of those game mechanics in some situations, breaking the fourth wall in a way that changes how the game is played, like Asgore destroying the Mercy button to remove the possibility of Frisk ending the battle non-lethally. The case isn't that every monster transforms reality into that battle system; it's just how the game usually works, often to the disadvantage of the monsters. If the entirety of the turn-based system really were part of the law manipulation of the monsters, then none of them would be waiting for Frisk to finish preparing instant noodles after Frisk had just killed their best friend. As I proved earlier using Whimsun as evidence, some monsters are bound to the battle system because it's beyond their control.

 

[Roachman40]

aye, I always thought the battle system was just a natural aspect of the game world, not exactly enforced by the monsters themselves, would say more but what i'd say has already been said, pretty much

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

If these laws don't appear in Versus Threads, I do wonder how we'll treat Sans' Law Manip in Versus Threads

 

[James_Plays_4_Games]

If these laws don't appear in Versus Threads, I do wonder how we'll treat Sans' Law Manip in Versus Threads

We could ambiguously regard him as being able to supernaturally prevent the opponent from being able to attack. That's basically what he does under Undertale's rules, so he should be capable of doing something like that under different rules too.

 

[omegabronic]

We could ambiguously regard him as being able to supernaturally prevent the opponent from being able to attack. That's basically what he does under Undertale's rules, so he should be capable of doing something like that under different rules too.

Also to be able to always attack first i guess

 

[Perequeliri993]

The thing is, sans' law manip has only been shown to work on his specific universe's rules. That's why it's "limited". Assuming he can use this abilities in a different set of rules than his would fall in No Limits Fallacy.

 

[James_Plays_4_Games]

Also to be able to always attack first i guess

I don't know. Also, I think that Sans being able to dodge has to do with him breaking the battle system rather than him simply being fast. We know that Undyne in base form is faster than Frisk outside of battle, yet she can't dodge Frisk's attacks in her Undying form. When Sans dodges at first, he's all like "What? You think I'm just gonna stand there and take it?", which is a reference to how pretty much all monsters don't ever dodge. Perhaps Sans' dodging is some form of hax.

The thing is, sans' law manip has only been shown to work on his specific universe's rules. That's why it's "limited". Assuming he can use this abilities in a different set of rules than his would fall in No Limits Fallacy.

I think it's only the no limits fallacy if it's applied in a way that goes beyond what Sans has shown. Logically if a character is capable of circumventing the rules of a universe they come from, they have the potential to do the same in a different universe even if it functions differently, just as long as circumventing the rules of that other universe isn't beyond the scope of what they showed to be capable of in their own.

 

[omegabronic]

The thing is, sans' law manip has only been shown to work on his specific universe's rules. That's why it's "limited". Assuming he can use this abilities in a different set of rules than his would fall in No Limits Fallacy.

Not really, he can just break the rules of the said diffeteny set of rules as well

 

[Perequeliri993]

I think it's only the no limits fallacy if it's applied in a way that goes beyond what Sans has shown. Logically if a character is capable of circumventing the rules of a universe they come from, they have the potential to do the same in a different universe even if it functions differently, just as long as circumventing the rules of that other universe isn't beyond the scope of what they showed to be capable of in their own.

I agree with you up to a point. I believe he has the POTENTIAL, but it hasn't been shown. The rules for both battle systems are very different. Being able to alter turn based battle rules does not mean you can alter real time action based battle rules, the ones we normally operate by. It's two whole different mechanics, and there is no evidence of him being able to affect real time battle mechanics.

Not really, he can just break the rules of the said diffeteny set of rules as well

Please, provide your evidence.

 

[omegabronic]

I agree with you up to a point. I believe he has the POTENTIAL, but it hasn't been shown. The rules for both battle systems are very different. Being able to alter turn based battle rules does not mean you can alter real time action based battle rules, the ones we normally operate by. It's two whole different mechanics, and there is no evidence of him being able to affect real time battle mechanics.

Please, provide your evidence.

Reality aplied rules in undertale, he broke them, reality tries to apply in another, he breaks as well, what do you think law manipulation is?

 

[Perequeliri993]

Reality aplied rules in undertale, he broke them, reality tries to apply in another, he breaks as well, what do you think law manipulation is?

The thing is the type of rule he broke. He broke turn based rules. Remember, just cause he can break an specific type of law (turn based mechanics) doesn't mean he can break other types of laws (real time action based mechanics).

Don't get me wrong, I really think he would be able to do it, there is just no evidence, and assuming he just can because he affected a completely opposite type of battle based rule would be a huge leap, and be considered No Limits Fallacy.

 

[StrymULTRA]

If these laws don't appear in Versus Threads, I do wonder how we'll treat Sans' Law Manip in Versus Threads

Sans can use those at his advantage, it's different from just standing there and flow with it.

In Dragon Ball for example a verse mechanic is that getting n-times stronger means also becoming n-times faster and durable, outside of explicit exceptions like the 2nd/3rd grade, but this is accepted as this is an actual power of a character due to how Ki works.

DDLC also works in a similar way given that the verse is made of datas which make concepts, plot and information, and while is a verse mechanic, Monika has all these powers given she has control over it instead of just being passively obeying this rule.

Sans is the same, he can enforce the laws on the opponents instead of just obeying them, so he gets the power. Easy as that.

 

[ShionAH]

Sans is the same, he can enforce the laws on the opponents instead of just obeying them, so he gets the power. Easy as that.

When sans uses "nothing" in vs threads how can his opponents escape the grasp? They need law hax I assume

 

[StrymULTRA]

When sans uses "nothing" in vs threads how can his opponents escape the grasp? They need law hax I assume

They can simply attack him in his sleep. It's how Chara did it.

 

[ShionAH]

They can simply attack him in his sleep. It's how Chara did it.

Chara pushed the entire fight box all the way to the fight button

 

[StrymULTRA]

Chara pushed the entire fight box all the way to the fight button

That's just a visual representation, it's not a literal thing, unless they literally fights moving patterns and a heart while staring to a 2D box.

 

[ShionAH]

That's just a visual representation, it's not a literal thing

Welp that is weird. So you are saying they simply walked up to Sans and killed him?