Sakura: Love and Lightning

[Testarossa002]

This is a hopefully much better remix of my first CRT on this site

Premise
A thread to apply the (in)famous "orders of magnitude" multiplier from the Sakura Hiden Novel. More specifically, for speed.
Without further ado, let's get right into it.

Spoiler: Multiplier

Here's the statement itself

Although he had nine tails, his silhouette was not that of a storied fox spirit. Rather than a beast, he was perhaps more accurately described as a mysterious purple person.“I can’t say the look is very refined, but you’ll soon see that I’m orders of magnitude stronger,” Kido said. His appearance itself was not particularly frightening. But the amount of chakra he was emitting was overwhelming.

"B-but he said stronger, not faster"
I mean, sure.It doesn't matter much as he'll eventually scale above his bear trap jutsu.

Lightning Style! Bear Trap!The circle of electric teeth came snapping at Sakura. In an instant, she determined that she wouldn’t be able to stop it. She realized that the jutsu, now enhanced by the drug, was several orders of magnitude faster and more destructive than when she had seen it before. Unable to retreat and avoid the attack, Sakura leapt forward and slipped through the circle of lightning to dodge the bear trap. The sharp snap behind her told her the trap had closed.

Spoiler: Kido's Relevance

This can go any of 2 ways with the same result.
Either Sai~Part II Sasuke per what's already on the profile
Or
Deidara~Part II Sasuke
I'll be going for the latter here.
Deidara<<Fujin/Raijin<<Base Magire<<<Base Kido<1000x amped Kido
Fujin and Raijin are capable of tagging Sasori and Deidara
Magire is implied capable of dodging an attack from Fujin.

“You’re already bringing them out?!” Ino cried, running over to Sai’s side.“This isn’t the time to be stingy,” Sai said. “We have to finish this quickly and get to Sakura.” Fujin raised its arm and brought an enormous fist down toward Magire. Magire leapt backward to dodge the blow heading straight for him. But Raijin was there at the ready, and its foot came own on Magire’s head. The earth rumbled, and clouds of dust rose up

The only reason he couldn't fully evade was because Raijin blindsided him.
Kido is comparable if not superior to Magire in Base. Then the amped version.

Spoiler: Sakura. Potential banana skin?

Counterarguments​

“Sakura scales to base Kido and also scales to amped Kido. Definitely not a 1000x amp.”​

She's definitely not at full power at the beginning of the fight for a few reasons

1. She had just been power nulled by a drug

“I think it would be best if you refrained from doing anything reckless,” Monocle said—most likely the medical ninja Magire. “The injection in your neck was a drug that makes it difficult to knead chakra while simultaneously numbing your muscles. Simply being quiet and resting will allow you to avoid expending excess energy. That is all.”

1. She had just been psychologically assaulted

“Let her meet Sasuke,” Kido ordered him, watching Sakura out of the corner of his eye.“Stop it.” “Understood,” the man replied. “I said, stop it!” Heedless of Sakura’s cries, the man swallowed the capsule. He wove a sign with both hands. Poof! A puff of smoke rose up, and when it cleared, Sasuke was standing there. Sasuke’s face. And the chakra was Sasuke’s as well. “Ngh!” Sakura quickly averted her eyes. She was ashamed of herself for the way her heart pounded for a moment, albeit unconsciously. “What do you think? Take another look and tell me about the poor quality.” As if I’ll look. Sakura closed her eyes and turned her face away from Kido and the man. As if she would ever look. Soon, she heard footsteps. They were coming toward her. Whoever it was stopped close to her. She opened her eyes a crack and gasped. The fake Sasuke was crouching down and peering at her. Get away from me! Sakura tried to turn her face away again. Then. “I love you, Sakura,” said the fake Sasuke, stroking her hair. “Ngh!” A chill so severe she wanted to cry out raced through her entire body, and she glared at the fake Sasuke. His mouth stretched out into a thin, vulgar smile, the sort of expression that would never cross the face of the real Sasuke. No words came out. Her entire being was filled with rage. Sakura glared very nearly hard enough to set the fake Sasuke on fire as he returned to Kido’s side

1. Even after 1 and 2, she still had to fight a bunch of enhanced Anbu and was tired at the end of it

Abruptly disappearing, they landed next to Sakura and her friends in the next instant.“I know you must be tired, so I do apologize, but we’ll have you go up against us next,” Kido remarked. “You know, if you’re disappointed at how weak your subordinates are, you could let it show in your face a little,” Sakura said.

"But the issue is still there. Even if she was nerfed, she was still relative to his base. A 1000x amp should be blitzing her with ease"​

I agree. Which is what also happened at first. Completely blitzed her perception

“Don’t worry. I intend not to kill you if possible. Here, at least. But—” In that instant, Kido disappeared. “—if you do die, my apologies.”“Ngh!” She didn’t have time to turn around. She sprang forward and immediately felt a roaring wind at her back. She knew Kido was waving his tails

"But she was dodging his tails."​

Yeah. She has insane analytical prediction. Something that has been drilled into her by Tsunade.

"Even if I agree with that, she was still able to land hits on Kido"​

Great point.
This comes in two stages

Stage 1​

She could only land hits on Kido at first because he let her hit (pun intended) for two reasons:

1. To show her his regeneration
2. To make her fall into despair and give up

Like a certain Uchiha

“That is an almost terrifying destructive power. To be able to injure my body when it’s enhanced by the Tailed Beast drug. However…” Kido laughed abruptly. “This takes us back to where we started.”The cracked outer skin was repaired before her eyes and restored to its original form. Sakura gasped. “I suppose you drew Magire and myself apart because he’s a medical ninja,” Kido remarked. “It seems there was no point in that, hmm?” An armor of unusual hardness with the ability to regenerate itself. Topped with nine tails sent out at will, an attack that was impossible to predict. This just gets worse and worse, Sakura thought. Maybe this wasn’t the best idea… But Sakura herself had brought about this situation. This was no time for whining. “Are you going to give up and choose instead to die before Sasuke? Isn’t that how you’d really like to die anyway?” “You’ve got to be kidding.” Sasuke smiled slightly. “If it’s this or dying in front of Sasuke, I choose fighting it out with you here.” “Fighting it out?” Kido grinned. “The only thing you have is ridiculous strength. How do you intend to fight it out with me?” “I’ll just do this!” she cried out, and once again launched her fist. She punched hard at the same place where the crack had been before. She felt a response, the spot where her fist had landed cracking. But the results were the same as before. A small area of the skin peeled away and fell off, but was quickly repaired. “You might have ridiculous strength, but like this, you’re simply ridiculous.” Kido wove a sign with both hands. It was one she’d seen before.

The other he got hit was unexpected
He even remarks that he was just standing there.

Perhaps not expecting that Sakura would step toward him, Kido took another hit from Sakura’s fist.But this time, no cracks appeared. “What? Are you exhausted already?” “Not by a long shot!” she shouted back, and launched her fist once more. A hit. But no cracks. She pulled her arm farther back. “I’m not about to simply stand here and allow you to punch me to your heart’s content,” Kido snarled.

"How then is she supposed to scale for it to work?"​

That's where stage 2 comes in.
She unleashes the byakugo seal

"But wait, byakugou isn't a speed amp"​

First of all, it should be but I digress.
Second of all, it should at least revitalise her to her peak self prior to the 3 nerfs above
There's one other thing
She got emotionally amped because of her feelings for Sasuke. That should at least cancel out nerf number 2 above

“It’s obvious, isn’t it?” Sakura said. “I want to take you down. I won’t let you make a drug or anything out of Sasuke’s eyes. And I’m not letting you make the Tailed Beast drug either. I won’t let you build your military company. That feeling—my feelings—they haven’t changed! So I’ll face off against you, however many times it takes!”
So I’ll tell Sasuke how I feel however many times it takes! …Wait. What? Abruptly, a feeling of love for Sasuke rose up in her heart, knocking her off-balance. Was pummeling Kido’s hard outer skin making her think of her love for Sasuke, a feeling that went unrewarded no matter how many times she told him about it? No. It’s not unrewarded. Sasuke and I have been getting closer bit by bit. “I’ll see you soon…” They had gotten all the way to that point. And this fight with Kido was the same. Sakura hadn’t abandoned all hope yet. As long as her chakra held out, she intended to keep pummeling him.

After which, she could now tag him even though he was trying to evade her.

Arriving in front of Kido, she hurled her fist at him.Hit! Hit! Hit! she chanted as she beat at her opponent. He tried to dodge her or guard, but she simply and intently continued to strike the same place. She saw a momentary lapse in his guard and grabbed hold of the chance to plunge her fist toward him. The punch that landed was solid.

And it's outrightly stated that she get's amped whenever she thinks of Sasuke
So she scales from here

Spoiler: Sixth Hokage Carrying?

There's a much shorter line of scaling albeit one would need mental gymnastics almost as long as the Sakura line.
Kido believed Kakashi was a serious opponent even with the drugs in his possession.

But Hatake Kakashi was a serious opponent, one he must not let his guard down around. Kakashi might have had his eyes sleepily half-closed most of the time, but his intuition was sharp when it counted. After all, he already had former Anbu member Sai at work.

"Well, it seems to be due to his sharp intuition rather than combat"​

That may be true but the sentence before this shows that they were indeed planning on using it for both political stuff and doping

We can use the Tailed Beast drug. Kido could feel the power of it. And this meant two things: they could use it for the dosed human beings and for political strategy.

it implies that he knows he's going to have to face kakashi eventually

Spoiler: Scaling

Please. This section will only be using currently accepted scaling justifications for speed. So, don't bring up anything else (fused momo x2, Jigen x10 etc)
The base values for Kido is Mach 7891 via the scaling outlined in Kido's relevance (see above). "Several orders of Magnitude" is at least 1000. Amped Kido becomes Mach 7981000 or 9.12c
This sandbox is for characters that will have their justification tweaked to accommodate this thread. Everyone else gets a straight value swap only.
Characters like 1 eye Juubidara scale to ~50% of the value (4.56c) off what we currently accept for his scaling in relation to Hagoromo.
Characters like IT Kaguya and the Boruto bros scale to FTL+ (10c) via upscaling massively from the FTL characters.

Credits to the Akatsuki members who looked through and contributed to this.

Have fun and keep it civil
Agree: @UchihaSlayer96 , @LordTracer
Neutral:
Disagree: @Damage3245

 

[HelloThere1089]

Faster Than Lizard + ahh scaling. Interesting. Following for now.

 

[Nierre]

Credits to the Akatsuki member who looked through and contributed to this.

using this from now on

 

[KaydeeX]

Damn, good Job

 

[Tomboy11]

Ayo

 

[Halkum145]

Where is ma boi kakashi? Anyway I'm with this

 

[DavidTPPM]

Not saying I agree yet, but how would the others who scale to FTL rn be impacted? Yk, the gokage, Hinata, Toneri, etc.

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

Agreed

 

[Testarossa002]

Not saying I agree yet, but how would the others who scale to FTL rn be impacted? Yk, the gokage, Hinata, Toneri, etc.

Hinata is currently scaling off base naruto via his own ftl feats which has no bearing on this thread
Toneri scales to BSM Naruto via what's on his profile
Gokage are under the "boruto bros" scaling

 

[DavidTPPM]

base naruto via his own ftl feats which has no bearing on this thread

Wait we actually accept dodging photons from an unknown distance as FTL?
I thought we were scaling him to FTL from kind of reacting to Sasuke, Toneris GWRE, and fused Momoshiki.

Toneri scales to BSM Naruto via what's on his profile

Understandable.

Gokage are under the "boruto bros" scaling

Oh, sure. I thought you were specifically referring to Boruto and Kawaki for some reason

 

[Testarossa002]

Wait we actually accept dodging photons from an unknown distance as FTL?
I thought we were scaling him to FTL from kind of reacting to Sasuke, Toneris GWRE, and fused Momoshiki

It was supposed to be removed anyways
Nobody has gotten around to that

 

[karo_senpaii]

I agree nice thread.

 

[karo_senpaii]

It was supposed to be removed anyways
Nobody has gotten around to that

I think base naruto in the last is scalled above base naruto from final valley who was able to scale to base sasuke.

 

[Testarossa002]

I think base naruto in the last is scalled above base naruto from final valley who was able to scale to base sasuke.

Nope

FTL (Faster than his EOS and New era Base Form, who was able to dodge a photon gun multiple times while weakened and unable to manipulate chakra), higher with Kurama Sage Mode (Far faster than before. Able to react to Toneri's Golden Wheel Reincarnation Explosion)

I don't even agree with this justification even if the rating was legit but that's outside the bounds of this thread

 

[DavidTPPM]

I think base naruto in the last is scalled above base naruto from final valley who was able to scale to base sasuke.

There's a lot to go from. Base Naruto could charge up a chakra punch to yank Toneri in the face at point blank range + he could somewhat keep up with fused Momoshiki + what you mentioned + he reacts to Shin in the Gaiden manga.

But like Testarossa002 said this is not what this thread is about so we shouldn't clutter it

 

[Damage3245]

Can the full context of the fight be linked to?

 

[karo_senpaii]

Nope

I don't even agree with this justification even if the rating was legit but that's outside the bounds of this thread

I think you forgot to add DMS kakashi. He should be ftl+ too

 

[DavidTPPM]

Can the full context of the fight be linked to?

Here's (hopefully) the entire fight

 

[Damage3245]

Thanks, I'll share my thoughts later today.

 

[Testarossa002]

I think you forgot to add DMS kakashi. He should be ftl+ too

He's under this

Everyone else gets a straight value swap only.

Since he scales to IT Kaguya
Basically, everyone whose current FTL scaling comes from light fang dodge gets upgraded

Thanks, I'll share my thoughts later today.

Alright

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

Okay, so here are my initial thoughts.

Either Sai~Part II Sasuke per what's already on the profile

I think this line of scaling is super straightforward since we have a direct feat for Sai.

I pretty much fully agree with your reasoning for why Byakugo Sakura would scale to amped Kido, as well as how you reconcile the potential issues with that. But you already knew that, since I looked it over before.

I guess what I feel needs more elaboration and justification is how you're scaling other people to Sakura. I'm assuming Naruto from The Last is the "scaling link" here, right? If so, then I feel like his justification needs to be more than a simple "Superior to Sakura".

 

[Damage3245]

Having reread the fight, isn't there an issue that the Sakura who dodged the "orders of magnitude faster" lightning bear-trap hadn't activated the Byakugo yet? So it would still be base Sakura.

She struggled to dodge the bear-trap even before the amp, and yet she was abe to dodge one a thousand times faster without Byakugo? It does put the statement as being rather dubious to me.

 

[KaydeeX]

I guess what I feel needs more elaboration and justification is how you're scaling other people to Sakura. I'm assuming Naruto from The Last is the "scaling link" here, right? If so, then I feel like his justification needs to be more than a simple "Superior to Sakura".

They scale to Kakashi due to a drug amped Kido acknowledging him as a formidable foe.
So it’s Kakashi~Base Koji blah blah all the way to shippuden

 

[Testarossa002]

Having reread the fight, isn't there an issue that the Sakura who dodged the "orders of magnitude faster" lightning bear-trap hadn't activated the Byakugo yet? So it would still be base Sakura.

She struggled to dodge the bear-trap even before the amp, and yet she was abe to dodge one a thousand times faster without Byakugo? It does put the statement as being rather dubious to me.

It's more about the nature of the jutsu (an omnidirectional trap) than sakura herself
She was facing the jutsu for the first time and didn't exactly know how it worked. So she - in a Sakuraesque manner - brute forced her way through it.
The second time she faced it however, she was well aware of how the jutsu operated and its weakness and exploited it to "dodge" the attack. There isn't a visual adaptation but this is how I see it. Before the trap closed, she steps forward and escapes the jutsu before it reached it full potential. Even Kido didn't expect her to act that way. She notes herself, that she wouldn't be able to dodge even the second one. She simply exploited a flaw in its mechanics

In an instant, she determined that she wouldn’t be able to stop it. She realized that the jutsu, now enhanced by the drug, was several orders of magnitude faster and more destructive than when she had seen it before.
Unable to retreat and avoid the attack, Sakura leapt forward and slipped through the circle of lightning to dodge the bear trap. The sharp snap behind her told her the trap had closed.
Perhaps not expecting that Sakura would step toward him, Kido took another hit from Sakura’s fist.

This makes more sense because without the multiplier (which Sakura herself notes), we'll be towing the argument that the jutsu from an amped kido somehow got slower (not even the same speed) since "Sakura didn't dodge it once and dodged it later"

If so, then I feel like his justification needs to be more than a simple "Superior to Sakura".

Can you help with a more suitable justification? Thanks

 

[Testarossa002]

They scale to Kakashi due to a drug amped Kido acknowledging him as a formidable foe.
So it’s Kakashi~Base Koji blah blah all the way to shippuden

Kakashi is a secondary scaling route in case Sakura doesn't pull through

 

[DavidTPPM]

Having reread the fight, isn't there an issue that the Sakura who dodged the "orders of magnitude faster" lightning bear-trap hadn't activated the Byakugo yet? So it would still be base Sakura.

She struggled to dodge the bear-trap even before the amp, and yet she was abe to dodge one a thousand times faster without Byakugo? It does put the statement as being rather dubious to me.

So the common argument against that I've seen was always that Sakura kinda just jumped through the bear trap. She didn't actually outspeed it in base

 

[DavidTPPM]

Can you help with a more suitable justification? Thanks

The Last novel mentions Naruto is "the strongest member of the team" several times as well as refers to him as "Naruto the strongest" when specifically talking about their retrieval team. Using those statements to get him over Sakura is probably better than just raw dogging it

 

[Testarossa002]

The Last novel mentions Naruto is "the strongest member of the team" several times as well as refers to him as "Naruto the strongest" when specifically talking about their retrieval team. Using those statements to get him over Sakura is probably better than just raw dogging it

I'll go through the novel
Thanks

 

[KaydeeX]

The Last novel mentions Naruto is "the strongest member of the team" several times as well as refers to him as "Naruto the strongest" when specifically talking about their retrieval team. Using those statements to get him over Sakura is probably better than just raw dogging it

Raw dogging

 

[DavidTPPM]

I'll go through the novel
Thanks

Np. Here are the statements I'm referring to in case anyone wondered

 

[karo_senpaii]

Np. Here are the statements I'm referring to in case anyone wondered

the thiccest?

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

They scale to Kakashi due to a drug amped Kido acknowledging him as a formidable foe.
So it’s Kakashi~Base Koji blah blah all the way to shippuden

Can you help with a more suitable justification? Thanks

Okay, so I know that this thread is not yet accepted, of course, but for the purposes of this particular post I'll pretend like it is accepted for the sake of the argument.

For me, it's easy enough to scale people from the NE to this stuff.
An easy way to do it would be through Coccashi. He's a threat to Kido, so he scales. Then after a decade of training, he's capable of fighting Koji, who's around 10% Jigen level, and a healthy Jigen scales to Naruto and Sasuke. Naruto and Sasuke then scale to Momoshiki, Kinshiki, and Kaguya, and so on. Obviously Kaguya would be the one linking this to the Shippuden people. So that's one avenue I can already see.

Then there's Sasuke, who's stated to be the strongest member of Team 7 during the Blank Era, which includes Naruto and Sakura. This would result in a very similar result to the Kakashi method as it would directly tie once again to Adult Sasuke, and we'd go from there.

David mentioned that there are statements in the Last novelization that assert Naruto's superiority over Sakura, which would also help massively. It'd be a more direct link, and would result in the same scaling chains as above tbh.
EDIT: The statements were linked above, so yeah, there's your third scaling avenue.

 

[DavidTPPM]

the thiccest?

I stand by what I said

 

[Damage3245]

I'll continue to go through the thread and may change my mind as it goes, but for now put me down as a preliminary disagree due to Sakura performing her dodging feat in base so I can't agree with the current sandbox at least.

 

[Floxy178]

Since Sakura confirms it being 1000 times faster and stronger than previous one during attack and stating that she can't stop it anymore, I think it's still usable. Because if novel treats Sakura already being aware of technique and leaping forward enough for closing that 1000x difference, there's not much to do.

For example we have a statement: a character can keep up with someone who's 100 times faster than him just because of his pure mastery. Normally you could argue that opponent can't be 100 times faster but huge difference is done on purpose here and he can keep up even without having that level speed, so the author's determination of how large a role additional factors play in the difference must take precedence over our more subjective opinions.

Like, it's literally said that amped attack is at least 1000 times faster, so it seems a little illogical to me to say that difference can't be 1000x. The reason why she didn't escape in the same way before amp was probably lack of knowledge.(Because if not, it means that amped attack is slower than non-amped as at first she chose to stop attack not being able to dodge it but she could dodge amped one)

 

[Nami_Kami]

Looks good. I agree.

 

[Nami_Kami]

Having reread the fight, isn't there an issue that the Sakura who dodged the "orders of magnitude faster" lightning bear-trap hadn't activated the Byakugo yet? So it would still be base Sakura.

She struggled to dodge the bear-trap even before the amp, and yet she was abe to dodge one a thousand times faster without Byakugo? It does put the statement as being rather dubious to me.

When it comes to Sakura, her mental state often has a huge impact on her power.

For example: When Sakura felt uncertain against Madara and only wanted to serve as a bait, she got absolutely destroyed by him despite having activated the Byakugo.

Yet when she felt determined against Kaguya, and felt like she had to be more than that, she got such a mental amp that she broke her horn and bruised her, as well as Kaguya being unable to dodge her punch. A Kaguya that's also said to be exponentially greater than before.

Keep in mind that this was a base form, exhausted and almost empty on Chakra Sakura too. Which really speaks for how big an amp that was.

Blatant examples of mental amps in Naruto include: Naruto's mental amp against Gaara, when he had to summon Gamabunda. Something he previously required Kurama's Red Chakra to do. Hiruzen's speech to Orochimaru. Also the databook on how Jiraiya's resolve amped him to the point he could destroy Pain's eyes with a kick, despite that same Pain casually blocking his attacks prior. And even Sakura's own profile.

Sasuke pulling off a 4th Chidori after a mental-amp is also noteworthy.

There are many more examples, but the point is that in Naruto the mental state of a character can significantly decrease or increase their power. Sakura felt quite conflicted in this novel at some points.

We also know that Sakura's strength is most dependant on her mental state than all other characters, as the whole thing about it is that her power comes from Chakra control, and requires top-level precision to utilize. Precision of a level that even Kakashi doesn't have.

I think that the fact that Kido's amp was said to be several orders of magnitude large not once but twice makes it solid enough to simply argue a mental nerf occuring earlier in the fight, with Sakura simply not being at full-power.

 

[Damage3245]

For example: When Sakura felt uncertain against Madara and only wanted to serve as a bait, she got absolutely destroyed by him despite having activated the Byakugo.

Yet when she felt determined against Kaguya, and felt like she had to be more than that, she got such a mental amp that she broke her horn and bruised her, as well as Kaguya being unable to dodge her punch. A Kaguya that's also said to be exponentially greater than before.

Keep in mind that this was a base form, exhausted and almost empty on Chakra Sakura too. Which really speaks for how big an amp that was.

While that's a fair interpretation it's also worth pointing out that she was charging head-on against an alert and prepared Madara, whereas Kaguya wasn't expecting her to come from above and was focused more on getting away from Naruto and Sasuke.

 

[Nami_Kami]

While that's a fair interpretation it's also worth pointing out that she was charging head-on against an alert and prepared Madara, whereas Kaguya wasn't expecting her to come from above and was focused more on getting away from Naruto and Sasuke.

The issue is that Kaguya had the Byakugan activated. Something that is seen allowing it's users see omnidirectionally for hundreds of meters, like when Neji activated it and almost instantly spotted 4 seals each hundreds of meters away from him in different directions. This'd suggest that Sakura was well within Kaguya's line-of-sight despite her facing forward. If anything this may even imply that Kaguya was blitzed by Sakura. This is also consistent with Kaguya moving upward with enough speed to dodge Six Paths Naruto and Rinnegan Sasuke, and Sakura easily tagging her. And even by Kaguya failing to dodge Sakura AFTER noticing her coming. So an exhausted base Sakura while being in a good mental state is performing better feats than she was performing at full-power with the Byakugo while uncertain.

 

[Emerald]

does the og japanese text say the same thing?