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Sakura downgrade

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Faisal_Shourov

Faisal_Shourov

VS Battles
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Hello all of you. I have trouble accepting Sakura as 7A. This has nothing to do with me disliking a character

Apparently she is powerscaled from BM Naruto for being equal to him in the databook. However there are some problems with that. Some people use evidence such as her being able to hurt Kaguya. And the other arguement for her is she blitzed Shin Uchiha when Naruto and Sasuke had trouble fighting Shin

Lets see the main problems:

1.Sakura is put at 7A while Tsunade is put at 7C. The gap between 7A and 7C is over 100000x. Both of them received the same power up in the series known as Byakogou. Sakura didn't receive a huge powerup like Naruto, Sasuke or Kakashi which was Sage of Sixth Paths chakra. Sakura is not a jinchuuriki, nor she's an Uchiha/Uzumaki/Senju. Her being that much stronger than Tsunade for receiving the same power up makes little sense

2. Featwise, Tsunade cracked a Susanoo ribcage and Sakura killed a few Juubi clones by punching ground. That's Sakura's best quantifiable DC feat. Sakura's punch had small AoE compared to ALL mountain level attacks I have seen in my life, so I doubt that punch is a mountain level feat. It looked town level to me, a calc team can do better job

3. As such Sakura doesn't have the DC to compete with bijudama from Naruto, nor a slash from Sasuke's PS, nor rasenshuriken or amaterasu, shadow clones, or Kirin. She's a close range melee fighter who can only punch and regenerate, she is less versatile than MS Sasuke or SM Naruto, let alone EMS and KCM.

4. Her keeping up with Kaguya is already stated to be an outlier on this forum, so that argument is pointless. If somebody still wants to know why: Sakura had an active plot shiled after Madara became Juubi jinchuuriki. Madara could have killed her instantly in Kamui land, but Obito teleported her away[1] . Then Sakura jumped on Madara's TSB rod on her own (Madara didn't try to attack her, she literally impaled herself), Kaguya has only once tried to kill Sakura, where Kakashi saved her with his flying Susanoo[2] . Then Sakura is able to punch Kaguya despite Kaguya having near 360 vision thanks to byakuga[3] and continent/moon level durability. Sakura is part of Team 7 could be the reason behind all these PIS where plot needed her to be alive and relevant.

5. About the Shin Uchiha- Sakura was somehow able to blitz Shin despite Naruto and Sasuke struggling. Now that scene was another huge PIS. Not only Naruto was nerfed so that he got impaled by a sword (Kurama stated Naruto was rusty), somehow Sarada was able to see Naruto and Sasuke in action without activating sharinga[4] . Naruto and Sasuke weren't using a fraction of their speed in that fight, let alone full (Sasuke said he and Naruto were trying to figure out who Shin was in their fight, implying Naruto and Sasuke were possibly holding back)[5] . Neither Sasuke or Naruto used their powers to beat Shin (Naruto being in pain from a simple sword stab shows what a big PIS nerf that was. Once again, team 7 reunion PIS scene

6. Sakura survived the gust Toneri made in the Last. But so did Sai. I don't see how that makes her mountain level

I suggest to keep her at 7C and reduce her speed to hypersonic. Apart from the PIS scenes, Sakura hasn't shown that she's faster than Killer Bee or Raikage which she would be if she was faster than KCM Naruto. Sakura is a medical ninja and she finally became useful, which migh have made her think that she caught upto Naruto and Sasuke. But she lacks any ability to perform the feats as bijudama or PS slash given she got same powerup as Tsunade
 
You pretty much said everything. I'd just add that taking something from a databook is ridiculous. If I remember correctly, in one of the databooks was stated that the Amaterasu is as hot as the sun and others inconsistencies (Jiraiya's combined attack with Bunta's).

Saying that Sakura = BM Naruto just because a databook says so is ridiculous.

So pretty much it.
 
I think Sakura should still have her current tier ranking. I'll explain why.

Regarding her attack potency, I'll repost what I did on Sakura's profile.

My post: And you're not hearing me. Naruto has attacks like Rasenshuriken and Bijuu Bombs, something that Sakura doesn't have in her arsenal. She's rated by her attack potency, not AoE and DC like most of Naruto's attacks.

^ I don't think I could have said it any better. Sakura is really not a character who focuses on the AoE and DC of her attacks. Her attacks are the literal meaning of attack potency. Just because she had the same tier rank as Naruto and Sasuke it doesn't mean that she can literally be compared to them when her attacks work differently. I even linked you to this thread in order to show you that your reasoning is wrong. Antvasima's comment is what I wanted you to see.

Antvasima: Yes, if the victory is rational. Characters of the same tier can have vastly different speed, number of powers, etcetera, and also differ to a degree in terms of destructive capacity

^ See what I mean? Same tier could mean a number of different things that determines the tier ranking, including one's destruction capacity and physical abilities. I'll post the rest of my post from Sakura's profile.

My post: To give you an idea, Tsunade could break Madara's partial Susanoo, which could easily tank an attack like this with no problem. She (Sakura) was stated as being just as strong as Tusnade when she did this. Attack potency.

^ What was wrong with this comparison? Tsunade could constantly break Madara's Partial Susanoo, yet the Juubi's attack couldn't despite how powerful it was. Attack potency. Simple as that really. Given how powerful the Juubi is, this is lowballing the feat lol. You're only making Sakura and Tsunade look more powerful. This is my reason why Sakura should stay at Mountain Level in attack potency. Everything adds up.

Her durability is also at a low end given this video in my opinion. At 1:21, Toneri uses his attack. At 1:39-1:42 you can see how powerful the technique was. At 8:40, you can see that Sakura was relatively unharmed by the attack. I don't see the problem with Mountain Level durability because of that, especially since it's a low end considering the destruction the technique caused. That looks like it could easily pass for Large Island Level in power. Mountain Level is easily more than appropriate just by looking at it. There are plenty of character profiles that need to be updated every since The Last and Boruto Movie.

Next is the speed lol. As you have said already, Naruto and Sasuke fighting against Shin was PIS because he could give them some trouble and Sakura blitzed him, despite the fact she's weaker than Naruto and Sasuke. You even implied that they weren't using full power. There are two things wrong with that.

1. Sasuke was literally fighting at full power .

2. Sakura is now a Jonin, an elite ninja.

This means that Shin was fighting against a completely serious Sasuke from the beginning and was doing relatively well. Shin was then blitzed by Sakura, which is why it's considered PIS. That would probably be the case if Sakura's rank didn't reflect her obvious growth in power. With that growth in power, you simply can't write it off as PIS just because Naruto and Sasuke are stronger than her in general. Even back when it was stated that she became equal to them in power, she was keeping up with them. This only proves more that she isn't that far from them in the physical aspect of their powers.

I'll add this as well so nothing can be said about it later. Excluding Naruto and Sasuke, Naruto's peers and fellow Kages have shown tremendous growth in the Boruto movie. Take a look at at this video. That's Sasuke getting demolished by Kinshiki, one of the antagonist of the Boruto movie. Since you can plainly see that Sasuke has a hard time fighting against him, that means that Kinshiki is just as fast as Sasuke. Later on in the movie, Kinshiki got caught by Shikamaru's Shadow Possession Jutsu while he was using his full speed to try and cut Sasuke down. That means that Shikamaru has a legit MHS+ feat. Towards the end of the movie, the current Tsuchikage and Mizukage, Kurotsuchi and Chojuro respectively, was able to fight against Kinshiki on equal grounds with Kurotsuchi even managing to blitz him. Keep in mind that this is the same Guy who was beating and keeping up with Sasuke pretty easily. This is the speed they were constantly displaying in their fight. That means that Kurotsuchi and Chojuro are both MHS+ too for fighting against Kinshiki on equal grounds. Why is this important? I'm pointing out how strong characters who was never stated as being Naruto and Sasuke's equal became. So why is it so hard to believe that Sakura, someone portrayed as their equal in some areas, wouldn't be as fast as Naruto and Sasuke too when there are multiple characters who can scale to their speed every since they were in their prime?

Last but not least, Kishimoto is the creator of Naruto. That means that if he says something about his characters and it doesn't contradict anything, his word is law ( the Word of God). He's constantly promoting that Sakura is right behind Naruto and Sasuke in power (their base power and lower forms at least lol), whether by the manga or databook. That alone adds more weight to everything I stated about Sakura, especially regarding her power and speed.

I'm tired now. I really hope that you and everyone else take these things into consideration though. Time for sleep.
 
Hypersonic sakura? nope.

The verse's speed is generaly outdated with many characters being listed as hypersonic+ while they can be at least high hypersonic.

For example the 3rd raikage is MHS with his cloack (he is as fast as his son), sage mode naruto can keep up with him,

Deva path can keep up with SM naruto, SM jiraiya can keep up with deva path, yet they are all listed as hypersonic+.

Regarding sakura's dc (and since she is using her fists it also applys on her durability)

Madara's incomplete susanoo can tank naruto's oodama sage mode rasengans ,who have an energy of 400 kt (large town level), without even cracking and tsunade who is sakura's equal can break a slightly more complete version of susanoo.

Shin was capable of keeping up with casual naruto and sasuke (not serious) so sakura who went berserk on him is not necessarily PIS.
 
I agree that her being 7-A is absurd, coupled with the fact it's based completely off the databook which is virtually the definition of inconsistency and hyperbole, her best feat is 7-C, her speed and Durability also should be looked at.

Any feat of her During The War against kaguya is PIS. simple. also to a lesser extent, PIS in naruto gaiden. naruto and sasuke were quite clearly casual vsing Shin, so no, she is not equal to their best cuz she hit shin.

@Non-Bias hashiramas claim she>=Tsunade is pretty...absurd. the last time he saw Tsunade was when she was like... 5. He has no way of knowing if she is stronger than her current form or not.

@OP very well done thread, Great points.
 
The original evidence for 7-A wasn't just the databook, the point was raised that she herself stated in her monologue that she had reached their level. The databook was mentioned later as the two statements from the manga and the databook back each other up.

The databook wasn't suggesting new information; it was reiterating information already given in the manga, it was as when the databook says things like "Naruto has a technique called the Rasenshuriken"; it's already in the manga, the databook is giving a refresher.

This was in chapter 632. The following two or three chapters after this were full of spreads of the three characters mirroring eachother and acting in sync, and showed Hiruzen looking at them, picturing the sanin (who were all on the same level) and declaring that "it is indeed a new age".
 
...So while I don't really have an opinion on this topic, is Tsunade going to be upgraded if Sakura stays the same tier? Because based on what I know, I don't think Tsunade is thousands of times weaker than Sakura.
 
Non-Bias said:
1. Sasuke was literally fighting at full power .

2. Sakura is now a Jonin, an elite ninja.
Click to expand...
1. Full power, doesn't use susano to protect his daughter. yeah full power.

2. Like rank means anything. Look at naruto through the whole war, a genin.
 
@rib doesn't mean it's fact? she quite clearly was not at their level, at all. heck, she couldn't even breathe infront of Madara due to the overwhelming difference in power.Granted this was Juubidara but someone on par with BM naruto and EMS sasuke shouldn't react like that. Hell, Sasuke even straight up calls her useless later.

@those chapters you mentioned, It was just Kishi trying to make them all look equal and parallel to the sannin. not to make them equal to each other in battle power. The chapter is even called "The new trio". And no, the Sannin were not equal in strength. they are equal,but not in terms of Battle power. it that could just be for their usefullness on the battlefield, not their combat, as Sakura was also mass healing at the time.

also Featwise, she is also far below the both of them. which directly contradicts the Databooks claims of "equal", to whatever that means, usefullness on the battlefield, who knows.

at any rate, the databook should never be referred to as a guide to the in-canon. like at all. it's just way to inconsistent.
 
I think that when both in-universe statements, and the databook say the same thing and the databook refers to the specific time of that chapter in it's statement, that yes, that pretty much does mean it's a fact. Obviously nothing will ever be 100% a fact, but this, like gravity, and heliocentrism, is one of those things that qualifies as close enough. I can't imagine this discussion continuing were we to be talking about a character in 90% of other popular verses.

"It was just Kishi trying to make them all look equal"

I don't know if you meant equal to each other here or to the sanin, but eitherway it's clear from reading the chapters that both are accurate. That's portrayal, it doesn't specifically tell you how strong characters are in relation to eachother, but portrayal is perfectly fair evidence, and in this case it's evidence that shouldn't even be necessary when things are already pretty clear.

The fact that she doesn't have as good feats as they do is the very reason she's scaled from them, not evidence against it.

The databook's sole purpose is to act as a guide to the canon. It contains information we disregard, but it's just case-by-case, with the default being acceptance, and there is no reason to ignore what is stated here.
 
Rib78 said:
1. portrayal is perfectly fair evidence.

2.The databook's sole purpose is to act as a guide to the canon. It contains information we disregard.
Click to expand...
1. No.

2. Contains information that goes against the manga evidence.
 
1. Yes, it's part of the motivation for most of the powerscaling we do among some of the more popular verses; it's really the only reason for a some fairly major character ratings (Sanji for example, and it's a major motivator in the statistics for many other One Piece characters, as well as Fairy Tail, and other verses. And even were it not, it's not like authors put portrayal of the type in chapter 633+ in by accident; that's something an author has to actively choose to do, for a reason.

2. Not in this case.
 
I think that when both in-universe statements, and the databook say the same thing and the databook refers to the specific time of that chapter in it's statement, that yes, that pretty much does mean it's a fact. Obviously nothing will ever be 100% a fact, but this, like gravity, and heliocentrism, is one of those things that qualifies as close enough. I can't imagine this discussion continuing were we to be talking about a character in 90% of other popular verses.

You saying that because it's sakura and shes being treated differently? common.

Also how is sakura talking about herself considered a fair and unbiased judgment? different if naruto or sasuke said that, but they did not.

"It was just Kishi trying to make them all look equal"

Yeah, that's called portrayal, it doesn't specifically tell you how strong characters are in relation to eachother, but portrayal is perfectly fair evidence, and in this case it's evidence that shouldn't even be neccissary when things are already pretty clear.

what has this got to do with her being as powerful as naruto and sasuke? like at all? equal in terms of usefullness, not Battle power.

The fact that she doesn't have as good feats as they do is the very reason she's scaled from them, not evidence against it.

The scaling would be viable if she clearly in lack of feats,but she showed her max. unless you don't think she gave it her all when she punched the ground @ the juubi clones, which was Calc'd at 7-C, with her byakagou on. She showed her limitations in strength there.

also, she would have to be thousands of times stronger than that to be viable for 7-A.

The databook's sole purpose is to act as a guide to the canon. It contains information we disregard, but it's just case-by-case, with the default being acceptance, and there is no reason to ignore what is stated here.

so we are cherrypicking information from the same source? ok.
 
Yeah, I totally believe it's because it's Sakura. I've seen very few characters people attempt to downplay more than her; I've also seen very few characters from popular series as hated as her; I don't think that's a coincidence, but either way, it's beside the point.

Two reasons: A) it's obviously information from Kishi to us via her; the only other alternative is that the monologue is supposed to show her hubris or something, which I'd say is a pretty distorted reading. If you think Sakura was misjudging her own strength, why do you think the monologue was included? It's not like the chapter was written by accident, there must be a reason; if you don't think it was to provide information to us, what do you think it was?

B) Because her statement, and the databook statement back eachother up; they coroborate eachother.

She was portrayed as an equal to them in the ensuing chapters; it's not definitive or anything, but it's a clear point in her favour.

@The bit about scaling: I don't know what that first sentence says. Do you expect every move to always show every joule of energy involved? The energy demonstrated by an attack doesn't put a cap how strong it may be, if that were the case then Luffy's Gigant Pistol would be weaker than even his basic Pistols.

It's not cherrypicking; we use the databook as a resource for information, we disregard information that contradicts the primary canon. If it doesn't contradict canon then it's accepted by default; we don't just pick and choose.
 
@Rib to the scaling no, i don't expect it to be detailed by the author obviously, but atleast have it in the ballpark. the power she demonstrated is 100000 weaker than what the databook thinks she should be. seriously. that is just too big a difference to ignore.
 
How can you think that anything that Sakura thinks is true? The first time she said she was equal to them, what did she do? She dropped her guard and needed to be saved once again.

I agree with @LordAizenSama. If Sakura said that, then it was in terms of usefulness. How can she or anybody even think that she could catch up with them in terms of power?

Putting Sakura in the same level as BM (KCM) Naruto and EMS (MS) Sasuke, it's nothing but a bad joke.
 
I see all the manga panels and evidence means nothing when it's regarding characters who are generally disliked lol.

Does anyone realize that saying Sakura and Tsunade are Town Level means that the Juubi's Tenpenchii is Town Level as well despite the fact it was leveling mountain ranges? The simple fact that Madara's Susanoo was getting cracked by Tsunade's fist yet could easily withstand the power of the Juubi's attack means that she's easily above Mountain Level in power. You're only making Tsunade and Sakura look stronger by denying the feat.

I even showed and mentioned that there are multiple characters in the series that are weaker than Sasuke, yet can easily get scaled to his speed for different reasons. Just because Sasuke's one of the strongest characters in the series it doesn't mean that he's overall superior in every stat compared to someone all the time.
 
@Non-Bias, funny for someone with your name is completely biased on this topic.

.....above mountain level....? no. just no. refute any of my points i made in my previous comments, please. don't just ignore them.

easily above mountain.... I bet if you had your way, you'd have her at continental. despite 0 noteworthy evidence to support it.
 
I don't like where you think you can go with that. a tsunade kick is not more powerful than a juubi tbb.

Edit IMO, i don't even think madara got hit with it looking at the next chapter, i would say hes not in the blast zone.
 
That depends on you guys. A listed Country Level attack couldn't destroy Madara's Partial Susanoo but Tsunade could? See how that works? By saying that she's Town Level because of that feat it's downplaying, but no one wants to put Tsunade at Country Level for breaking Madara's Susanoo either. What is wrong with her being Mountain Level in power as the perfect rating?
 
LordAizenSama said:
I don't like where you think you can go with that. a tsunade kick is not more powerful than a juubi tbb.
Edit IMO, i don't even think madara got hit with it looking at the next chapter, i would say hes not in the blast zone.
Click to expand...
You're wrong. Madara was standing right by the Juubi.
 
read my above posts.

Sakura's strongest feat is classed 7-C, powerwise that is 100000~weaker than class 7-A

Sakura was more than likely at her PEAK there.

they scaled this from the databook, because of what she stated saying that she is now equal to sasuke and naruto. whatever your interpretation of "equal" is, there is quite alot of doubt considering:

1. her top feat is not close at all

2. Being equal could very well relate to their usefullness it battle, as i stated earlier. it would not be unreasonable to think this, as it creates no problems within the continuity of the manga, sakura's statement would be considered correct in this sense.

3. the above only applies if this was a honest, and fair, assessment of her ability to sasuke and naruto, which could very well not be. which when she said she has caught up to them in the past, she clearly hadn't, and when she said she had grown up and was ready to kill sasuke, she clearly wasn't. So taking what she says at face value is very iffy.


EDIT: if thats the case and he was standing next to the juubi blame kishimotos shotty writing ability, also i dont think the juubi aimed the TBB straight down at where madara was? it is hard to tell.
 
It can't be inconsistency if it's something that was continuously happening lol. Inconsistency would mean someone like Gaara and Mei was shattering Madara's Susanoo. Tsunade was the only one destroying it with her physical power though.
 
The juubi's attack was probably country level ,but the durability madara's susanoo would need to survive it is not that great since the energy is scatered on all directions.

Still breaking it would make tsunade at large town to city level ,and sakura is at least her equal.And sakura's speed is unchanged no matter what,since she was able to keep up with naruto and sasuke more than once.
 
You seem not to understand. You're implying that Sakura or Tsunade > The Juubi just because the Tenpenchii didn't affect Madara's Susanoo.

How isn't that an inconsistency when that attack was causally destroying mountains, but neither Sakura nor Tsunade showed anything near that?

You're trying to put them above a Tenpenchii, above an attack of the Juubi.

That's a joke, right?
 
Kkapoios said:
The juubi's attack was probably country level ,but the durability madara's susanoo would need to survive it is not that great since the energy is scatered on all directions.
Still breaking it would make tsunade at large town to city level ,and sakura is at least her equal.And sakura's speed is unchanged no matter what,since she was able to keep up with naruto and sasuke more than once.
Click to expand...
I think Sakura is faster, since she completely blitzed Kaguya and Shin, two guys who where owning Naruto and Sasuke.
 
I didn't say she is faster, she should be MHS to even compare to people like shin who can go against a not so serius sasuke.
 
kkapoios, it was more or less Plot stupidity that entire chapter, just to give sakura a grand entrance

also refer to the OP. he actually lists a very good point on this

From the OP: "somehow Sarada was able to see Naruto and Sasuke in action without activating sharingan"4
 
If you are going to make jokes, then i'm out.When you don't agree with me just say it ,don't use sarcarsm.
 
I really do hate having to keep using PIS like a broken record and may seem like im downplaying, but there is really no other way to look at it, kishimotos writing when down the toilet late in naruto
 
Kkapoios said:
If you are going to make jokes, then i'm out.When you don't agree with me just say it ,don't use sarcarsm.
Click to expand...
How can I not joke when you guys only bring PIS, outliers and inconsistencies to this debate?

I'm sorry for that.
 
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