Saitama vs Ogre (1-7-0) GRACE

[Yeolban]

Then you are not using the term perfectly correctly. A perfect copy would come equipped with the skill of the target as well as the technique, which Garou can do, because his copied techniques immediately surpass the originals.



This still doesn't really mean much in the scope of Saitama's copying though. Again, he can copy shit way beyond that. Like macro-quantum particle movements and 4th dimensional stuff. Yes, I am legitimately saying Saitama has 4-D copying. It is stated by Garou that he can copy God's powers and God's powers are confirmed by blast to come from a higher dimension..

Ain't that shit hax and not MA feats...

 

[Phoenks]

Ain't that shit hax and not MA feats...

It's a feat of copying. Which is relevant here regardless of whether or not you want to consider it "martial arts." That's not really what I'm debating. I'm saying that If Saitama can perfectly replicate Ogre's techniques and styles then there is no skill difference.

 

[Yeolban]

I'm saying that If Saitama can perfectly replicate Ogre's techniques and styles then there is no skill difference.

And we're saying that Mori already perfectly replicated them and it didn't do shit to Ogre.

 

[Phoenks]

And we're saying that Mori already perfectly replicated them and it didn't do shit to Ogre.

Again, misuse of the word "perfect" + Saitama's mimicry far surpasses his by an infinite degree.

It's a bad use of the word perfect because you are simultaneously saying that he "perfectly" mirrored her technique, while also saying that she was still bodying him afterwards.

A perfect copy of a technique/skill would be the same in every capacity. There shouldn't be any notable gap, otherwise your copy can't be considered perfect. Perfect means flawless.

And Saitama's copying allows him to mimic stuff that is literally leagues beyond just martial arts, infinitely so, due to him being able to mimic God powers.

 

[DavidTPPM]

Then it's simply an anti feat for him to not be as good as Ogre after copying her.

No? Copying moves doesn't copy experience and actual skill at utilizing those moves. What it is is a feat for Ogres skill and experience.

If you perfect copy someone you shouldn't still be worse than them. It's either perfect or it isn't.

No...

I'm referring to Garou's statement of Saitama being able to copy all of God's powers, which come from a higher dimension which ignores distance size and energy.

That's not necessarily 4D. Mori was also called a being in a higher dimension...

It wasn't just being unfairly strong he was going toe to toe with Garou in martial arts and purposefully copying his movements.

Scans? All I remember is about his power.

Garou did that too and then exceeded it.

No he didn't. Statements about perfecting skills are thrown around when it's not actually true all the time even in GoH. But in this case it's so literal it breaks physics. Achieving recoiless on a technique means you completely focus all of your energy into a single point without losing any energy in the process without doing any unnecessary micro movements. Mori using recoiless equates to him using a 250,000x multiplier.

Then it isn't perfect copying and you are agreeing with my point here.

It's a perfect copy, you're just confusing techniques and skill/BIQ/experience.

Imagine a noob plays against a pro in a video game. They both pick the same character and both know all of their combos. In other words, the noob has a perfect copy of the pros moveset. But the pro would still absolutely demolish the noob thanks to his better experience and actual skill.

It's like a 1000 Elo chess player playing against Magnus Carlsen. They both have the perfect copy of each other's movesets but Magnus would still completely steamroll the 1000 elo dude purely thanks to intelligence, skill, and experience.

Then you are not using the term perfectly correctly. A perfect copy would come equipped with the skill of the target as well as the technique, which Garou can do, because his copied techniques immediately surpass the originals.

Garou doesn't gain the opponents intelligence and experience lol. And that's the man factor here. Ogre is an over 5 billion year old ancient entity who almost singlehandedly fought a war against a race of gods that whooped Mori in the past and would have won if she didn't get betrayed.
Mori perfectly copied her moves and even invented a completely new improved move on the go, but Ogre was so much more experienced in the combat style that simply copying her wasn't enough.

This still doesn't really mean much in the scope of Saitama's copying though. Again, he can copy shit way beyond that. Like macro-quantum particle movements and 4th dimensional stuff. Yes, I am legitimately saying Saitama has 4-D copying. It is stated by Garou that he can copy God's powers and God's powers are confirmed by blast to come from a higher dimension..

Okay so
1. Explain why copying "macro quantum particle movement" is conceptually difficult and is combat applicable AT ALL. This is like saying that Einstein could replicate martial arts better than Bruce Lee because he knows quantum physics.
2. That's not 4th dimensional stuff. First of all, coming from a higher dimension doesn't mean they themselves are higher dimensional. Second of all, being considered "higher dimensional" is not enough to be considered 4D on this wiki. Otherwise Mori would be 5D since ragnarok.

And if we want to go this way then Moris wits were described to be "beyond understanding" by Mujin. Mujins understanding would involve conceptual manipulation, 4D objects, and 4-5 dimensional alternate timelines.

It's a feat of copying. Which is relevant here regardless of whether or not you want to consider it "martial arts." That's not really what I'm debating. I'm saying that If Saitama can perfectly replicate Ogre's techniques and styles then there is no skill difference.

It is relevant because having the ability to copy hax does not mean you somehow magically gain the skill, intelligence, and experience of the opponent.

 

[DavidTPPM]

Btw I'm not just pulling this whole experience/IQ thing out of my ass.
Mori literally fought someone who could copy all of his moves + all the moves of everyone else he's fought before Mori even used them thanks to seeing the future, and won specifically because he was more experienced



It's, according to the author, the reason why Satan who can perfectly copy everything from martial arts, conceptual soul hax, and sounds, to even straight up body parts of his opponents by reading their mind lost to Mori back in ragnarok.

 

[Epiccheev]

Ogre expels Saitama from her Swamp FRA

 

[Phoenks]

No? Copying moves doesn't copy experience and actual skill at utilizing those moves. What it is is a feat for Ogres skill and experience.

Garou exceeds the skill of his opponents when he copies their moves. Experience is linked with the amount of skill someone has in their technique.

For example, going to chess as you brought up.

Skill in Chess is gained through experience playing the game. If you copied someone's skill in chess, what you are really copying in the amalgamation of everything they've learned through their experiences.

No...

No reasoning.

It's a perfect copy, you're just confusing techniques and skill/BIQ/experience.

Imagine a noob plays against a pro in a video game. They both pick the same character and both know all of their combos. In other words, the noob has a perfect copy of the pros moveset. But the pro would still absolutely demolish the noob thanks to his better experience and actual skill.

It's like a 1000 Elo chess player playing against Magnus Carlsen. They both have the perfect copy of each other's movesets but Magnus would still completely steamroll the 1000 elo dude purely thanks to intelligence, skill, and experience.

If you were to perfectly copy Magnus' entire technique and his skill in Chess then you would draw with him.

Again, perfect.

And again, Garou exceeds the skill of his opponent in the technique he copies.

Explain why copying "macro quantum particle movement" is conceptually difficult and is combat applicable AT ALL. This is like saying that Einstein could replicate martial arts better than Bruce Lee because he knows quantum physics.

Garou considers it the absolute pinnacle of his martial arts techniques and wasn't able to master it even with god-given knowledge combined with his own martial arts knowledge.

It isn't even about this being martial arts. It's about the scope of what Saitama can copy. If he can copy someone's movements down to the macro quantum level then it is clearly superior to everything you provided for Mori Jin so far. You mentioned physically impossible martial arts. This is WAY beyond just that.

That's not 4th dimensional stuff. First of all, coming from a higher dimension doesn't mean they themselves are higher dimensional. Second of all, being considered "higher dimensional" is not enough to be considered 4D on this wiki. Otherwise Mori would be 5D since ragnarok.

It has been agreed upon by multiple administrators including Ultima that it is a good enough statement to a verifiable 4-D existence. It isn't just me saying it.

It is relevant because having the ability to copy hax does not mean you somehow magically gain the skill, intelligence, and experience of the opponent.

Again, skill and experience are linked. If you can purposefully copy someone's skills, you gain the intricacies they learned through experience regardless.



Are you going to add my vote btw

 

[Yeolban]

I think it's kinda crazy that you're basically arguing that Garou is more skilled than GOH characters when in other GOH vs Garou debates, characters like Mira and Daewi easily clocked Garou in skill.

You were in these debates too, by the way. You're the one who started them in the first place, if I remember correctly.

And Ogre is on their level, if not arguably more skilled.

But, well...

 

[Phoenks]

I think it's kinda crazy that you're basically arguing that Garou is more skilled than GOH characters when in other GOH vs Garou debates, characters like Mira and Daewi easily clocked Garou in skill.

You were in these debates too, by the way. You're the one who started them in the first place, if I remember correctly.

This isn't true. The Daewi skill debate was inconclusive between me and Azontr and I forgot what happened with the Mira one pretty sure that just died.

Also, Saitama >>>> Garou.

 

[DavidTPPM]

Garou exceeds the skill of his opponents when he copies their moves. Experience is linked with the amount of skill someone has in their technique.

Not really? Experience and intelligence/skill decides many things. Knowing which technique you should use for each scenario, how to time it, and how effectively you can pull it off are all things that are completely based on the users IQ/BIQ, skill, experience, and info analysis. Simply copying the technique itself doesn't grant any of these.

For example, going to chess as you brought up.
Skill in Chess is gained through experience playing the game. If you copied someone's skill in chess, what you are really copying in the amalgamation of everything they've learned through their experiences.

No, that's not even remotely true. If I see Magnus win 1 game and I perfectly copy the moves he made in that game, it won't allow me to play at his level against a different opponent who makes completely different moves. Yeah maybe if the exact same situation as the one I copied appears in a game I'm playing, I will be able to replicate Magnus' moves effectively. But if literally ANYTHING is different by even a single tile, I'll be forced to use my own skill to decide.

No reasoning.

Because I already gave the reasoning above.

If you were to perfectly copy Magnus' entire technique and his skill in Chess then you would draw with him.

No? Magnus' intelligence and experience would allow him to adapt to my copy which would create a scenario I'm my ready for and Magnus would completely steam roll me.

And again, Garou exceeds the skill of his opponent in the technique he copies.

And he doesn't steal their experience, BIQ, or general intelligence.

Garou considers it the absolute pinnacle of his martial arts techniques and wasn't able to master it even with god-given knowledge combined with his own martial arts knowledge.

Cool? And Mori straight up achieved a whole new concept. Moris moves aren't perfect in the sense that he just thinks they're perfect. They're perfect in the same sense that grass is green and water is wet.

It isn't even about this being martial arts. It's about the scope of what Saitama can copy. If he can copy someone's movements down to the macro quantum level then it is clearly superior to everything you provided for Mori Jin so far. You mentioned physically impossible martial arts. This is WAY beyond just that.

No? What makes replicating something difficult is rarely ever just the size of the movement. It's mostly the complexity.

All Saitama did was send his particles in 1 direction and his anti particles in the opposite direction. That doesn't require precision as long as you're capable of moving those particles, and it's not mentally tasking (complex) since it's literally just like spinning one hand in 1 direction and the other hand in a different direction for a normal human. The only thing that portrays this as difficult is that Garou couldn't master it, but even that only puts it at the same level of difficulty as a single basic kick from Mori since Dean also couldn't master than.

It has been agreed upon by multiple administrators including Ultima that it is a good enough statement to a verifiable 4-D existence. It isn't just me saying it.

It really isn't tho. Even if it was (which again, according to the wiki standards isn't and 4D Mori was repeatedly rejected based on that), it would only make Gods dimension 4D, not God himself.

Again, skill and experience are linked. If you can purposefully copy someone's skills, you gain the intricacies they learned through experience regardless.

And again, no matter how much you try to twist it, copying a skill won't give you someone's experience. Yeah SOME experience is obviously imprinted on the move in the sense that, If you gain an experience that makes you perform the technique differently that experience is technically imprinted on it in a certain way.
But that is not even remotely what I'm saying here. The relevant experience would be something like blocking a high kick and realizing "wow this hurts, I shouldn't do this, instead I should use a different block or dodge".
Actual experiences like these allow you to use the correct techniques in the correct situations with the correct timing while also allowing you to predict your opponents moves better. Again Garou or Saitama or whoever can copy all the 50 different kicks that Mori has. But when it comes to actually attacking the opponent in specific situations, it's completely up to them to pick which kick is the correct one to use.

Are you going to add my vote btw

Oh I didn't realize that you were voting for Saitama, I'll count your vote then (I might have missed it, in that case that's on me sorry). Iirc you kinda conceded to most of my main arguments via BOR and I thought you just wanted to discuss the less relevant stuff. Like we are debating Saitama copying Ogres skill when Saitama doesn't have the weapons Ogre uses 100% of the time she fights

 

[Mndks]

I vote Ogre for Davids reasons

Q victims

 

[Spectra_Schiffer]

Ogre fra

 

[Halkum145]

Ogre is way better than him.

 

[Averagepunn]

Nah I'm better than both (I'd skill-stomp)

Also Ogre FRA

 

[DavidTPPM]

Nah I'm better than both (I'd skill-stomp)

You'd fold and cream your pants the moment you would see Ogre

 

[Averagepunn]

You'd fold and cream your pants the moment you would see Ogre

(Nah I'd fold like a lawn chair)

 

[Halkum145]

Voting ogre fra

 

[DavidTPPM]

And that's the start of grace

 

[DavidTPPM]

Grace is officially over and the match up can be applied to profiles

 

[LordGriffin1000]

You'd fold and cream your pants the moment you would see Ogre

For Ogre, I'd gain all the skill.... After folding like like origami.

 

[Megaraptor149]

Grace is officially over and the match up can be applied to profiles

Sorry late, if want to applied to profile. You must request on Versus Match-up Addition Thread first

 

[DavidTPPM]

Sorry late, if want to applied to profile. You must request on vs addition Thread first

I already did. They're yet to add it but the request is up