Saint Seiya revision

[Dargoo_Faust]

Once something is hit with Cosmo,it is disintegrated at a atomic level

Prove it.

As in, the entire object is disintegrated, mind you.

 

[Leonida85]

Once something is hit with Cosmo,it is disintegrated at a atomic level

Prove it.
As in, the entire object is disintegrated, mind you.

Kanon did this

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

"my whip is being pulverized"

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

What's happening here is that we have a wide range of people who are not fans of Saint Seiya suddenly taking interest in the verse and supporting a downgrade based entirely on visuals.

 

[SupremeGilgamesh]

First Story Explanation of Cosmos effect



A character putting into actio



Explanation and Effect


(and if someone say debris,i swear to god...)

Every single thing a Cosmo user does uses Cosmo

Absolute Zero,Heating,Healing and Regenerationn etc

Every single time Cosmo is mentioned,it's atomization effects are brought up again and again and again

Every single instance atoms are mentioned in Saint Seiya,you can bet there will be some talk of Cosmos which wouldn't happen if it didn't have the properties it's said to have

 

[Xulrev]

What's happening here is that we have a wide range of people who are not fans of Saint Seiya suddenly taking interest in the verse and supporting a downgrade based entirely on visuals.

What we have here is a failure to actually defend a point and use vapid ideology to attempt to Poison The Well.

The visuals are what calculation standards for vaporization are based off of, Matt, in case you were unaware. Keps points are still valid and the feat, as he calced, is more accurate.

 

[Ionliosite]

I fully agree with Matt here, his arguments seems to be the most solidy backed up by the manga.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

@Xulrev

We don't need to use visuals when the statements all repeat the same thing. I'm sorry, but can you not read the scans? All of them state the same exact things. I assume English is your first language, correct?

 

[Crateris_Aeson]

"my whip is being pulverized"

Lune's body was disintegrated.

Saga disintegrates Ikki (armor and body) with Galaxian Explosion.

• https://imgur.com/a/xNAj1TF

Sorrento's attack can disintegrate Aldebaran's body, although it does not destroy his armor.

• https://imgur.com/a/iRrN8Mo

Niobe disintegrates Aldebaran's body, although it only tears apart his armor.

• https://imgur.com/a/ZprJP1D
• https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LXNk1DYmeqg

A Silver like Mayura disintegrates a meteorite with a casual attack.

• https://imgur.com/a/EZe4307

Misty disintegrates the body and soul of some giant creatures with his technique.

• https://imgur.com/a/wIIEId9

 

[ParadoxIndifferent]

Even assuming Saga, Sorrento and Niobe are capable of full, complete atomic destruction (something that is irrelevant to the thread), they don't excuse Chapter 1 Seiya blatantly straying far from doing the same thing, in the slightest.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Even assuming Saga, Sorrento and Niobe are capable of full, complete atomic destruction (something that is irrelevant to the thread), they don't excuse Chapter 1 Seiya blatantly straying far from doing the same thing, in the slightest.

Blatantly how? Did you not read the scans? The in-universe explanations for the very basis of the power system? The logic behind the Saints' attacks themselves?

Did you just instead happen to look at the flashy imagery and immediately conclude that there's no atomic destruction going on despite the manga making it blatantly obvious that's actually what happened?

Because seriously, "blatantly straying" sounds quite silly to my ears when it's exactly what narration and explanation states it does.

 

[Leonida85]

And chapter 2?

 

[Kepekley23]

 

[Dienomite22]

I find it extremely hard to get behind the idea that Saints don't destroy atoms because frankly there is way too many statements and explanations that agrees with it buuuuut on the other hand, I can see the importance of visual atomization being important. This is essentially visual vs statements, explanations and verse mechanics.

 

[Xulrev]

@Xulrev

We don't need to use visuals when the statements all repeat the same thing. I'm sorry, but can you not read the scans? All of them state the same exact things. I assume English is your first language, correct?

You do know how calcs work, right? They're...visually based for a manga. You calc what is on the page. Thats what a calc is. And if there is debris, you cant calc it as vaporization.

Make a CRT to change the calculations guidelines or accept your lack of a point please

 

[Kepekley23]

Saints can destroy atoms (the individual energy yield of one singular atom being destroyed is far from impressive). That still doesn't justify even one trillionth of the idea that they were capable of atomic disintegration on a complete, total scale when creating these Chapter 1 craters.

This isn't visual vs. statements. It's the visuals versus statements, explanations and verse mechanics that don't even contradict the visuals to begin with.

 

[AstralKing7]

We also calc statements

 

[Kepekley23]

By the way, if we're now going to ignore the visuals based off of a specific high-end interpretation of the statements, how about we ignore the crater's existence, to begin with?

It's not stated in the lore to exist, afterall. If you assume Seiya actually created a crater, then you also have to assume the visuals are reliable.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

> Kanon did this

There isn't anything statement-wise or visuals wise that say or show anything regarding atomization. In fact, there's active contradiction of this with "my whip is being pulverized".

> (and if someone say debris,i swear to god...)

That's literally what it is, though.

Although I asked for new scans. I already commented on the scans you posted above in this post (and even in the post you're responding to) and there hasn't actually been any semi-decent responses to it outside of repeatedly insisting the scans say something they don't and claiming that the argument is over and objective evidence has been provided.

> Blatantly how? Did you not read the scans? The in-universe explanations for the very basis of the power system? The logic behind the Saints' attacks themselves?

> Did you just instead happen to look at the flashy imagery and immediately conclude that there's no atomic destruction going on despite the manga making it blatantly obvious that's actually what happened?

> Because seriously, "blatantly straying" sounds quite silly to my ears when it's exactly what narration and explanation states it does.

We read the scans, Matt. It's why we have an issue with your conclusions. The 'in-universe explainations' don't actually support them. Once again I need to say that breaking some atomic bonds is not breaking all the atomic bonds in an object, see my example of Raiden in MGS. Honestly you could make these same backwards arguments for him or literally anyone else who mentions they can "cut through atoms" or "destroy atoms" without any other context. This isn't even going into how it's contradicted by how the feats are actually presented, so you're failing on both fields here.

Like I said above, Matt and other supporters are just repeatedly showing the same scans, not responding to key arguments, and insisting "it's obvious, why aren't you getting it". They are avoiding any actual meaningful discourse and I find it extremely disconcerting.

 

[Leonida85]

snip

This is from chapter #1, but the other one from chapter #2?

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Also the whole "My whip is pulverized" is from Viz Scans which I don't ever take to be precisely accurate.

And yes, we will keep posting the statements and evidence because they're factual. I can understand you going solely by visuals if you never got into the Saint Seiya series but that's not how it works.

 

[Kepekley23]

chapter 2 crater

That crater still has a significant amount of debris being ejected from it, as seen in the panel on the right, and once again, there's no evidence Saints are capable of performing complete atomic annihilation to any object at this point in time, to begin with.

 

[Dienomite22]

Saints can destroy atoms (the individual energy yield of one singular atom being destroyed is far from impressive). That still doesn't justify even one trillionth of the idea that they were capable of atomic disintegration on a complete, total scale when creating these Chapter 1 craters.
This isn't visual vs. statements. It's the visuals versus statements, explanations and verse mechanics that don't even contradict the visuals to begin with.

So are you proposing the area that Seiya's fist hits is the only thing that can be assumed to being destroyed on the atomic level and everything is else such as the pebbles and debris is just the aftermath of the force of his fist?

 

[Crateris_Aeson]

> Kanon did thisThere isn't anything statement-wise or visuals wise that say or show anything regarding atomization. In fact, there's active contradiction of this with "my whip is being pulverized".

Lune's body was disintegrated. The armor is not, but this armor is made of an Underworld material, therefore, it is not normal matter.

 

[Leonida85]

snip

Let me understand:

do you want a manga from the 80s, drawn by a guy who doesn't know how physics works, to show you "exactly" how atomic destruction occurs?

 

[Kepekley23]

So are you proposing the area that Seiya's fist hits is the only thing that can be assumed to being destroyed on the atomic level and everything is else such as the pebbles and debris is just the aftermath of the force of his fist?

I am saying that the Saints are capable of ignoring durability by targeting the atoms; that much has been stated, but I have never seen one shred of evidence to support the idea that they can turn anything into subatomic soups with their fists. I've clarified this several times, already.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

> And yes, we will keep posting the statements and evidence because they're factual. I can understand you going solely by visuals if you never got into the Saint Seiya series but that's not how it works.

I just clearly explained that my issue is with the statements themselves, not purely with the visuals, and even breifly mentioned at the end of one of my sentences that "isn't even going into how it's contradicted by how the feats are actually presented" just to emphasize what I'm saying. Please read through my posts more carefully, I'm not sure how you came to the conclusion that I'm going purely off visuals, and I don't feel like I was being unclear here.

I have no issues with you posting statements and evidence, and yes, they are factual. That does not mean the conclusions you draw from those statements are also factual, however, and I am saying, and have been saying for this entire thread, that your conclusions do not match up with your evidence.

I do not know why me 'being into' the Saint Seiya series matters for anything. You and others here are the ones trying to prove a point. I am explaining my issues with your proof. You repeatedly swerve away from interacting with my critique of your proof and keep on trying to point out that "non-fans" are "purely going off of visuals" when this is explicitly not the case. Please respond to my points against your evidence instead of whatever this is.

> do you want a manga from the 80s, drawn by a guy who doesn't know how physics works, to show you "exactly" how atomic destruction occurs?

I want people who are trying to prove a point to have evidence that supports that point. I don't particularly care about when the manga was produced, who the author is, I'm not throwing away our site's standards to reach a specific desired conclusion.

> Lune's body was disintegrated. The armor is not, but this armor is made of an Underworld material, therefore, it is not normal matter.

Okay.

I still don't see where any of this supports complete atomization.

 

[Crateris_Aeson]

That crater still has a significant amount of debris being ejected from it, as seen in the panel on the right, and once again, there's no evidence Saints are capable of performing complete atomic annihilation to any object at this point in time, to begin with.

Because no, even the series describes that they destroy matter at the atomic level, and Silver like Mayura (without their maximum power) and Misty who are not much more powerful than they can disintegrate a giant creature or a meteorite.

Okay.

I still don't see where any of this supports complete atomization.

Because it disintegrates Lune's body completely, even if an armor made of a material that resists atomic level transmutation was not completely destroyed.

Another example: Garuda can disintegrate the rock where its attack impacts, but it cannot destroy ships of special material.

• https://imgur.com/a/umaqRCc

 

[Leonida85]

snip

OK

So now Saint Seiya is wall buster.

For me that's ok, but however I want to see how many franchises are able to demonstrate what they claim

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

@Leonida

I never said Saint Seiya is being downgraded to 9-B. My only issue is with how these specific feats are being calculated.

 

[Leonida85]

@Leonida
I never said Saint Seiya is being downgraded to 9-B. My only issue is with how these specific feats are being calculated.

Following your reasoning

The saints, given that they "pulverize", are not atomic but molecular (I think), and since they cannot demolecularize the whole target, I see them rather low ....


If these are the new standards, all I can do is accept them.

As the Romans said: Dura lex, sed lex

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

I think you underestimate how good pulverization and fragmentation feats can be. Most of the characters on the site are rated by them.

Off-topic, though. We can discuss re-tiering once the arguments proposed by the OP are accepted.

 

[Crimson7867]

The arguments against the OP are weak as shit. The evidence literally looking you in the face is telling you that by the fact debris exist the calc is wrong, and has been wrong, for many years.

for people saying "well its just visual representation and the author might not know how to draw atomic destruction" first I would like to say that "Visual representation" is reality. Don't try pull a EA here and try rename it to downplay it's significance. What we are shown is always > what we are told.

as for not drawing atomic destruction correctly.. you just don't draw debris. draw nothing. like really this is simple to understand.

 

[Kepekley23]

> Because no, even the series describes that they destroy matter at the atomic level, and Silver like Mayura (without their maximum power) and Misty who are not much more powerful than they can disintegrate a giant creature or a meteorite.

Literally none of those instances prove that they are capable of complete atomic disintegration. Just that they can target atoms to an extent. The visuals of every single instance of atomic destruction are consistent with the idea that they have some sort of disintegration ability, but that they don't come close to complete destruction.

 

[Crateris_Aeson]

Literally none of those instances prove that they are capable of complete atomic disintegration. Just that they can target atoms to an extent. The visuals of every single instance of atomic destruction are consistent with the idea that they have some sort of disintegration ability, but that they don't come close to complete destruction.

In the series, the author describes that his attacks destroy matter at the atomic level (even in some occasions the nucleus of the atom destroyed is drawn) and for the two examples mentioned we can observe a complete disintegration of the object, therefore, I think what confirms that they are capable of complete atomic disintegration.

 

[Leonida85]

I think you underestimate how good pulverization and fragmentation feats can be. Most of the characters on the site are rated by them.
Off-topic, though. We can discuss re-tiering once the arguments proposed by the OP are accepted.

Sorry but a few days ago I discovered that this Wiki uses the short scale (actually all the sites in English) and therefore I felt quite down when I realized that "yours" septillions are in reality only quadrillions (in my country we use the long scale)

So I'm not that happy

 

[Crateris_Aeson]

I think you underestimate how good pulverization and fragmentation feats can be. Most of the characters on the site are rated by them.
Off-topic, though. We can discuss re-tiering once the arguments proposed by the OP are accepted.

So it's just this specific feat and the calculation of this.

Your problem is the energy obtained in the calculation of this specific feat and not the description of the powers of the series.

 

[Kepekley23]

In the series, the author describes that his attacks destroy matter at the atomic level (even in some occasions the nucleus of the atom destroyed is drawn) and for the two examples mentioned we can observe a complete disintegration of the object, therefore, I think what confirms that they are capable of complete atomic disintegration.

We know this. Like, for the tenth time, we're all aware of the fact that the author describes the characters as capable of destroying atoms. That doesn't mean anything because being able to destroy atoms does not mean that every object destroyed by you has been completely disintegrated on the atomic scale. We have explained this several times, already.

Yes, some Golden Saints do show specific attacks that completely erase on the atomic scale, but that doesn't apply to Bronze Saints at all.

 

[Diinou_HotHead]

People shoulda read the OP better.

Kep was saying the 6-C calc's invalid because it doesn't look like it COMPLETELY Atomize the Crater.

Yes, some parts, like the center may have been atomized, but it's just a small part, so small that using pulverization in the calc would be better.

 

[Crateris_Aeson]

Yes, some Golden Saints do show specific attacks that completely erase on the atomic scale, but that doesn't apply to Bronze Saints at all.

The Gold Saints, I described and showed Silver Saints feats (one example is just a casual attack), a Bronze Saints is much more powerful than a Silver since the beginning the battle with the Golds, and Seiya and company are not much weaker than these Silver Saints at the beginning of the series (even Hyoga, Ikki and Shun are more powerful than a Silver from the beginning).