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Saint Seiya revision

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Schnee One said:
Nitpick but It's the other way around he charged the nuclear power plant using his cosmos.
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That's what I said though?

  • needed to channel his cosmos through a normal Nuke to supercharge it into a weapon capable of causing that much damage
 
Schnee One said:
Nitpick but It's the other way around he charged the nuclear power plant using his cosmos.
Click to expand...
Yeah and the explosion wield is far more massive than that of any man-made weapon.
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
Schnee One said:
Nitpick but It's the other way around he charged the nuclear power plant using his cosmos.
Click to expand...
Yeah and the explosion wield is far more massive than that of any man-made weapon.
Click to expand...
I am straight up lost on what we are proposing right now.

Are we going from 6-C to 8-A to 7-A+ at the moment?

Like, I am fine with the idea and quote, I guess.

But like, what are you suggesting?
 
That's what I said though?

  • needed to channel his cosmos through a normal Nuke to supercharge it into a weapon capable of causing that much damage
I saw that as charging his cosmos with a nuke, not charging up a weapon with his cosmos, sorry for the misunderstanding
 
People seem to be mixing things up here.

A nuclear power plant is not a nuclear bomb, for starters. The yeild of that feat will likely be far lower or at the very least need to be calculated seperately.

Timeframe is needed too, as depending on how long the feat took it could be reduced rather significantly.

Sourcing the feat would be extremely helpful before we discuss it extensively, let alone begin suggesting tiers.

I was not sourced the feats I previously asked for, by the way.
 
I'm fine with finding another feat to calc, and also agree that it shouldn't be any lower than Tier 7

and the whole spiel about onscreen visuals > statements... if numerical values are provided then we go with that over drawn/animated visuals.
 
Is reversing the flow of a water calc'able? Correction I think he reversed the flow of a river iirc

I do know of a few feats, but is there an already existing calc for lizard misty shaking the fuiji chain?

Is calcing a crater within ice that is a special glacier that doesn't melt for (I think iirc) 10,000+ years calc'able???

I also know of some spin off series calc'able stuff
 
@DrunkHC

Seiya did not scale with Kouga, no one of his time actually, he was even much more powerful on the grounds of his own cosmos, and because of the saints' top training with the Saints academy.

Taizen say that saints crush atoms has already been debated here, at no time this information says that they atomize the entire area corresponding to which their blows affect.
 
The Omega saints have their own feats that can be calc'ed but thats a story for another time..

Edit: i have a list of those, and a list on how they scale.. but we can discuss that another time..
 
Alonik said:
@DrunkHCSeiya did not scale with Kouga, no one of his time actually, he was even much more powerful on the grounds of his own cosmos, and because of the saints' top training with the Saints academy.
Taizen say that saints crush atoms has already been debated here, at no time this information says that they atomize the entire area corresponding to which their blows affect.
Click to expand...
Kouga does not train in the Saint Academy, because he trained like all the Saints with his teacher (Shaina). Koga is even weaker that a Bronze like Soma in that part of the story. On the contrary, Seiya is stronger that a Bronze (average), it is probably close to a Silver since the beginning of the series.

This was already debated and several attacks were shown that destroy all the atoms in the area where they impact.

TheUpgradeManHaHaxD said:
The Omega saints have their own feats that can be calc'ed but thats a story for another time.. Edit: i have a list of those, and a list on how they scale.. but we can discuss that another time..
Click to expand...
Yes.

For example: A Silver like Shaina survives the attack of Mars that destroys a part of an island and only falls unconscious by the mark of darkness.

 
Kouga does not train in the Saint Academy, because he trained like all the Saints with his teacher (Shaina). Koga is even weaker that a Bronze like Soma in that part of the story. On the contrary, Seiya is stronger that a Bronze (average), it is probably close to a Silver since the beginning of the series.

Wrong, Kouga trained at the gym to master his light attribute. Soma is a saint much more powerful than most saint's classics, because of the classics didn't even have the meteor that brought the power-ups to all saints on earth.

Kouga at the beginning of the series also fights with silver saints, who were in (average) far superior to those of the classic, because of the meteor that improved everyone's attribute.

And this conversation is irrelevant, Omega doesn't matter at all here, it's just derailing the thread.

This was already debated and several attacks were shown that destroy all the atoms in the area where they impact.

Actually, not. You just need reading this thread, and you'll see that countless feats have been presented and debated that doesn't take the entire area of the attack, just a part.
 
Alonik said:
Wrong, Kouga trained at the gym to master his light attribute. Soma is a saint much more powerful than most saint's classics, because of the classics didn't even have the meteor that brought the power-ups to all saints on earth.

Kouga at the beginning of the series also fights with silver saints, who were in (average) far superior to those of the classic, because of the meteor that improved everyone's attribute.

And this conversation is irrelevant, Omega doesn't matter at all here, it's just derailing the thread.
Click to expand...
Wrong, Koga only trained in the Saint Academy after that scene. Previously he only trained with Shaina and was weaker that a Bronze (average) in that part of the story.

Soma is much weaker than Seiya at the beginning of the series, all the protagonists with Eden's exception are weaker than Seiya at the beginning of the series. Seiya from the beginning was a Bronze more powerful than his rank, because he was close in power to a Silver from the beginning, even Hyoga, Ikki and Shun are stronger than a Silver from the beginning.

No, the meteor (the darkness of Apsu) only granted the ability to use an element to all Saints, but this is not important, because some Saints also dominated some element in the past. But the abilities of the new Saints are inferior to the old generation.

Alonik said:
Actually, not. You just need reading this thread, and you'll see that countless feats have been presented and debated that doesn't take the entire area of the attack, just a part.
Click to expand...
I showed that they can destroy the entire area with several scenes of the franchise. The only problem is how we calculate Seiya's feat at the beginning of the series. The calculation is incorrect and the energy is exaggerated in that scene.
 
Wrong, Koga only trained in the Saint Academy after that scene. Previously he only trained with Shaina and was weaker that a Bronze (average) in that part of the story.

yes, that's true. Because most bronze had a much higher training than what he had, which was equal to that of Seiya.

And it's totally irrelevant, nitpicking taking my comment out of context.
 
Alonik said:
yes, that's true. Because most bronze had a much higher training than what he had, which was equal to that of Seiya.

And it's totally irrelevant, nitpicking taking my comment out of context.
Click to expand...
No, Koga was never a committed student, because he does not seek to become a Saint.

Seiya was a good student and exceeded the expectations of Marin from the beginning, that's why he is stronger than the other Saints.

In simple words:
Seiya (beginning of the series) >>>>>>>> Koga (beginning of the series)
 
No, Koga was never a committed student, because he did not seek to become a Saint.

Whatever, he still learned a lot, that's the point. And overcame ryuho very quickly, who was a committed student.

Stop derailing the thread, it's irrelevant.
 
Alonik said:
Whatever, he still learned a lot, that's the point. And overcame ryuho very quickly, who was a committed student.

Stop derailing the thread, it's irrelevant.
Click to expand...
Not at the beginning of the series.

In addition, Ryuho is powerful, but he has a weak body because of his illness. He is probably weaker than his father at the beginning of the series.

In Volume 1 and 2, Seiya is stronger than a Bronze (average) and can defeat Shiryu (another bronze stronger than his rank). In Volume 3, he has stronger armor and can easily defeat the Black Pegasus, and fight with Ikki (the strongest Bronze and stronger than the Silver Saints).. In Volume 4 and 5, he overcomes the strength of a Silver and can defeat Misty and Moses, even when he was injured and weakened by his fight with Ikki.

Seiya (at the beginning and the first half of the story) >>>> Koga (at the beginning and the first half of the story)
 
It was at the beginning of the series.

Ryuho having a disease in the body only affects how long he can fight, which is irrelevant here.

Kouga from the beginning of the anime (episode 11-15) was already stronger than silver saints.

If you convert the manga volume to anime episodes, I mean, in episode 14 they were still fight with Ikki.

Kouga overcame much more powerful silver Saints even much earlier than Seiya, right at the start of the omega series.
 
Lets talk about Saint Seiya Omega after we get the original sereis dealt with.. I have a lot to say about Omega tbh lol...
This thread was originally for the original/classic series..

but i do have a question, what exactly are we waiting on at this point?
 
I think that are nuclear power plant scans, but Matthew already sent a comment up there saying that this feat is not usable for bronze knights, since it needed a gold saint to contain the unknown saint.
 
Alonik said:
It was at the beginning of the series.
Ryuho having a disease in the body only affects how long he can fight, which is irrelevant here.

Kouga from the beginning of the anime (episode 11-15) was already stronger than silver saints.

If you convert the manga volume to anime episodes, I mean, in episode 14 they were still fight with Ikki.

Kouga overcame much more powerful silver Saints even much earlier than Seiya, right at the start of the omega series.
Click to expand...
This is not chapter 1 or the beginning of the series that is the scene to debate.

Ryuho even defeats Koga in Chapter 4 of the series.

Ryuho's weak body prevents him from reaching his full potential.

Seiya defeats Shiryu in chapter 4 and 5 of the original series or in Volume 2 of the manga.

In Chapter 11, Koga, Yuna and Soma can only defeat (not kill) Johann, when the three fight against him. In Chapter 12, Shun helps in the fight and damages Miguel before his defeat (he also doesn't die after the attack) with the Bronze. Koga only defeats and kills (with a little help from Yuna) a Silver in Chapter 13 and it was Fly who is probably one of the weakest Silver in the franchise.

Seiya begins as a Bronze Saint stronger than the average, probably close to the power of a Silver, because Seiya can hit Shaina (without armor) in Chapter 2. Koga begins as a Bronze Saint weaker than the average.
 
I don't know, I think the elimination of the calculation was already accepted, therefore, we have to apply a downgrade to the Bronze and Silver level warriors.

Is better to start a new topic to discuss what level we will give to the Bronze and Silver Saints.
 
soo.. whats the plan now..? I kinda want to do Hades arc revisions... but.. i don't want to post it yet until this gets settled..
 
Leonida85 said:
I just want to highlight that Kurumada (the author) does not understand anything about physics and therefore does not know how to draw it.
Let me explain: Hyoga's Aurora Execution is an attack that the saint shots against the enemy and freezes him to the absolute 0. Here only for the fact that the attack moves from Hyoga to the target it is assumed that it retains kinetic energy, although it is at absolute 0.

So when you say that there are fragments in the crater of chapter 1, I think it is something really silly
Click to expand...
I disagree with the example and critique, it is never stated that Hyoga nor Camus do indeed reach the absolute zero with the Aurora Execution. In fact, their entire skirmish during the Sanctuary Arc is based around who can get the closest to it.

For the record, I think Kep is making the most sense. Though there's likely been cases of subatomic anihilation later on (just coming from the sheer nature of some of the Gold Saint's powers), the earliest examples of destroying atoms (such as Seiya's crater) certainly do not fit neither the visual cues for the calc, nor are backed by the explanations. None of the scans I've seen linked in counter-argument depict or explain complete erradication of atoms.
 
Bruce Reb said:
I disagree with the example and critique, it is never stated that Hyoga nor Camus do indeed reach the absolute zero with the Aurora Execution. In fact, their entire skirmish during the Sanctuary Arc is based around who can get the closest to it.
Click to expand...
What? It is directly and indirectly stated that Hyoga reached AZ. It's the entire reason Hyoga was able to freeze Camus' Gold Cloth that only freezes at AZ temperature.
 
I disagree with the example and critique, it is never stated that Hyoga nor Camus do indeed reach the absolute zero with the Aurora Execution. In fact, their entire skirmish during the Sanctuary Arc is based around who can get the closest to it.

I think some time has passed since the last time you read the manga, I suggest you reread Vol. 11 of the classic manga.

As the Latins said:Repetita iuvant
 
I've been checking around for more info on that.

Since I couldn't find any english scans of volume 11, I had to use the spanish release to go by (which considering the releases in latin america have been far more consistent consumers and the market there for Saint Seiya is overall a lot more rentable for the franchise, it should not be treated as inferior in fidelity).


https://tmofans.com/viewer/5af61a5e394dd/paginated/4

"Como t├║ bien sabes, la temperatura extrema de congelación es el cero absoluto. ┬íSin embargo, incluso para m├¡ resulta imposible llegar a esa temperatura tan baja!"

"As you very well know, the extreme congelation temperature is the absolute zero. But, even for me reaching a temperature that low is impossible!"

Top left panel, Camus states he can't reach the absolute zero, even if he does get critically close to it.


https://tmofans.com/viewer/5af61a5e394dd/paginated/6

"┬íTe mostraré cómo supero tu capacidad de congelación...! ┬íAunque no llegue al cero absoluto...!"

"I'll show you how I overcome your congelation capacity, even if I don't reach the absolute zero!"

Bottom left panel. Hyoga stating he's not planning to reach the absolute zero.


https://tmofans.com/viewer/5af61a5e394dd/paginated/11

"Te lo promet├¡...! Te promet├¡ que aunque no llegara al cero absoluto... te mostrar├¡a cómo supero tus habilidades de congelación!"

Mid bottom left panel, Hyoga states the exact same thing again. He's not reaching the absolute zero, but he'll surpass Camus.


https://tmofans.com/viewer/5af61a5e394dd/paginated/12

"┬í┬┐Qué es esto?! ┬íEl rayo de congelación ha quedado suspendido en el aire, equidistante entre nosotros! ┬í┬íEso es absurdo!! ┬í┬íSignificar├¡a que Hyoga ha llegado al mismo nivel que yo!!"

"What is this!? The freezing beam is suspended in the air, equidistant between the both of us! It's absurd!! This would mean Hyoga has reached the same level as me!!"

Self explanatory, Hyoga is adapting and matched Camus' freezing power.


https://tmofans.com/viewer/5af61a5e394dd/paginated/18

"┬í┬íLa armadura!! ┬í┬íLa armadura de oro se ha congelado!! ┬íE... entonces estaba en lo cierto...! ┬íPara destruir el ataud de hielo es necesario un poder de congelación superior al m├¡o! Una temperatura inferior a los 273 grados bajo cero, ┬í┬íO sea, el cero absoluto!!"

"The cloth! The Gold Cloth has been frozen! Then I was right, to destroy the freezing coffin, a congelation power superior to mine is needed - a temperature lower than 273 degrees below zero. In other words... the absolute zero!"

"┬íResulta que es ahora, cuando est├í a punto de consumir toda su vida cuando Hyoga supera a su maestro! ┬í┬íMediante la consecución del cero absoluto!!"

"It so happens it is now, when he's about to consume his entire life force, that Hyoga surpasses his master! Through the attainment of the Absolute Zero!"

It's clear by this point that Hyoga has consequentially reached the threshold of the absolute zero, as evidenced by Camus' gold cloth getting frozen.


There's some more statements that back up the fact that he's pulling a miracle from the seventh sense but they don't add nor detract from the feat, so I'll stop there.


I believe you were right, yeah. After having read the volume again, it's pretty safe to say Hyoga ca reach the absolute zero through the power of miracles , much like Seiya was able to bust the central pillar. Camus however doesn't seem to be capable of getting close to attaining it from the statements or feats shown alone, Hyoga's Cyngus Cloth does not work as a comparable benchmark, since it's a bronze cloth, and it's freezing temperature is stated and shown to be -150┬║.
 
I easily found english scans by googling "Cygnus Hyoga absolute zero" or you can find them on this respect thread. Also, I believe its on his page too.
 
The point here is that there is a divergence in the English translation into Spanish.

The translation pt-br agrees with English.

I'm not saying that the Spanish translation is wrong, I'm just showing the differences, I'll translate this scan from JP later to see what is the right translation of this statement from Camus, and then we can conclude something of that.
 
Glad you read it again.

However, I would like to add that Camus, despite in Sanctuary arc does not reach A0, but it seems that he succeeds in Hades arc, as a specter, since he manages to freeze Shaka's knee with a DD in the Sala's garden (vol.21)

So I think Camus had some insights fighting Hyoga and shortly before he died he also learned the absolute zero
 
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