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Saint Seiya revision

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Kepekley23

VS Battles
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Chapter 1 Seiya is currently rated as Island level because he created a crater. Due to in-universe mechanics, we assume the feat was atomization-based, since it was stated that the Saints targeted and shattered the atoms of the objects that they wanted to destroy.

However, there are several things to consider here:

1. In the exact same scene where atomic shattering is mentioned for the first time, Marin picks up a nearby rock to demonstrate the ability and we can clearly see that she does not even come close to atomizing it. She partially disintegrates it, leading to debris flying everywhere, which instantaneously invalidates the idea that she literally destroyed it on an atomic level.

It can be argued that she simply weakened its atoms via hax, in such a way as to make it collapse, or something similar to that, but certainly not that she destroyed it on the atomic level. I am not denying that they do show the ability later on in the series, but not by Chapter 1.

2. We can clearly see during the aftermath of the crater that Seiya creates that there was no atomization going on, since there's a metric ton of debris inside and all around the crater. This other instance showing anothercrater in the process of being created is often used to support the idea that there is no debris, but one can clearly see that there is plenty of rock being ejected out of the crater and flying upwards in the same panel, before crashing back into the ground by the time the full crater is created. So the idea that he atomized the entire volume of either of these craters or even a significant portion of them is not supported in the work itself.

I suggest we revise that crater to pulverization, or something similar, while still giving Chapter 1 Seiya durability negation via Cosmos, which, in my view, is fair enough of a compromise.
 
The scan doesn't even state that they target/shatter atoms. It's legit some dude saying things are made of atoms.

Although even if that they "targeted" atoms, they'd actually have to explain that they're reducing objects to atoms for us to calc it like that.

I guess I'll toss in my support for this.
 
https://imgur.com/a/lhZX4cU a collection of scans about Atomization in verse

Though i will say there is 2 scans saying they "Split apart atoms" "Separate atoms"

Note: the imgur album doens't include the novels (which does have some scans of it) or the verses explanation of Absolute Zero (comparing AZ to basic function of cosmo.)
 
I'm perfectly aware that Saint Seiya has many instances of stuff being atomized. I'm just saying that this crater was blatantly not such an instance.
 
"A character can atomize things" is not "a character atomizes everything that they vaguely destroy/shatter".

"Destroy these atoms" doesn't mean "all the atoms in this object were destroyed", especially when there's large visible chunks of the object after they hit it.

"Can destroy protons" is not "destroyed everything in every object it hit to a subatomic level".

The last scan is probably the only legitamate scan, but it only applies to like, one attack.
 
So tis the range that is the issue? The act of atomizing is only the size of their hand, or whatever body part they imbue cosmo in. The range of atomization doesn't extend (random number) 8 meters out away from the source?
 
The issue is extrapolating from these scans that any instance of them destroying objects is them atomizing it, when none of the scans actually imply or say that.

Barely any of the scans support them fully atomizing targets, even. A few do, but they can't be reasoned to apply to all attacks in the series.
 
Okay, just got the time to answer this.

What Kep said do make sense. Cosmos are like energy attack thingy that atomize on contact. They don't completely atomize unless it covers the object completely.

So I think I'll support the calc change.

By the way, this would affect lots of fodder-Tier people. So I don't think this can be called a "Slight" Revision.
 
Basically every single attack a Saint does in Saint Seiya is based around atomic destruction. This is pretty much an established fact of the verse. They outright explain that the basis of destruction is destroying atoms. And in regards to Seiya punching craters (which he again later in the same chapter right after the atom destruction explanation), it's not an inconsistent thing.
 
They're capable of directly affecting the atoms of an object with their attacks, sure, but they're clearly not atomizing anything in its entirety. The immense amount of debris in both occasions testifies to that.

And yeah I got the order of the panels wrong.
 
Out of curiosity, what's the yield for splitting a single atom (In the sense that the electrons, protons and neutrons are being split apart)?
 
Extremely minuscule, actually.

A 10-kiloton nuclear bomb holds the energy equivalent of 1.3 septillio atoms being split.
 
I firmly agree with Kep and Dargoo.

We must remember that the Saints themselves forget that they can destroy matter at the atomic level, for example;

in chapter 66 of the classic manga, Seiya remembers that instead of attacking the pillar of poseidon with the libra weapons and its raw power , they just needed to raise their cosmos to the maximum to crush the atoms of the pillar, which they were not doing until that moment [1].

Moreover the idea of having bronze saints without any power-up with the island level is absurd, because Kurumada works with a strength ranking system of the saints, which he always keeps reinforcing, where Gold Saints>Silver Saints>Bronze Saints.

And Lizard Misty before Seiya gets miracles is very superior to seiya, and according to misty his biggest attack the Marble Tripper can just cause trembles on the mount fuji.

It's an extreme outlier a bronze saint (without the use of miracles) have a power greater than misty Marble Tripper, they actually have to be way below that, and only with miracles can overcome silver saints.
 
Alonik is misrepresented. The Pillars of Poseidon's are not normal matter. They can't destroy it with their basic attacks. The Mainstay Pillar has universal durability, in fact.

Also, biggest attack my ass, Misty did that without doing any attack or even physically showing up.

Again people are misrepresenting the scenes.
 
Misty's Marble Tripper might be able to shake mount fuji, but Seiya needed an attack that had 100x more force, and power to stagger Lizard Misty. Aries Mu also acknowledged that it had power of 100x the force and power. Its a fusion of all his pegasus meteror fist made into one mega attack

This looks like an issue with range. The can atomize an area the size of their fist, but the outward expanding force isn't atomization (Hopefully i phrased that right...)
 
Misty's Marble Tripper might be able to shake mount fuji, but Seiya needed an attack that had 100x more force, and power to stagger Lizard Misty. Aries Mu also acknowledged that it had power of 100x the force and power. Its a fusion of all his pegasus meteror fist made into one mega attack

That doesn't matter, because it's just seiya after a miracle, and the island calculus scale bronze saints only in its base form.
 
Misty shook Mount Fuji nearly to the point of collapsing by character statements. Alonik was trying to misrepresent that as his strongest attack barely causing small quakes.

Also I really doubt the veracity of Kep's claim that a nuclear bomb is equal to septillions of atoms being split apart. Unless he's misinterpreting what is being meant by atoms splitting here.
 
Alonik was trying to misrepresent that as his strongest attack barely causing small quakes.

Wrong, it is said that marble tripper can just cause tremors on mount fuji, nothing less than that, and nothing more.
 
Collapsing up Mount Fuji (a 7-A+ feat) with your strongest attack, when you are stated to be so above the people with the supposedly casual 6-C feat that you're a "god", and they are "worms", indeed makes the 6-C feat iffy.

Yes, even the most pathetic nuclear bombs, such as the ones detonating over Hiroshima and Nagaki, are only that powerful because they're composed of the energy of septillions of atoms being split apart. Unfortunately, pop culture twists people's views of actual scientific fact.
 
Kepekley23 said:
Collapsing up Mount Fuji (a 7-A+ feat) with your strongest attack, when you are stated to be so above the people with the supposedly casual 6-C feat that you're a "god", and they are "worms", indeed makes the 6-C feat iffy.
Nothing about the strongest attack has ever been brought up before.

Also Misty saying that he is a "God" and that the Bronze Saints are "worms" to him isn't to be taken literally. Misty's practically Narcisus with how vain and arrogant he is. This is the man who rants about how he is the most beautiful of all of the Gods' creations while stripped naked in a beach mid-fight.
 
Even assuming that to be the case, Seiya's 6-C feat does not exist, so they'd still be downgraded to whatever the pulverization yield of the crater is.
 
I actually don't mind Tier 7 Bronze and Silver Saints, actually. I just question the veracity of your atomic bomb claim when calcs of what this wiki usually calls "sub-atomic destruction" have wields which seem to go contrary to that.
 
The bomb that dropped on Nagasaki released 8.3e13 joules of energy, which is equal to roughly 5e32 electron-volts.

Each Uranium atom releases ~200 million electron-volts when split.

  • 5e32 / 200,000,000 = 2.5e24 Uranium atoms
Those are how many atoms have to be split to release the energy of a 20-kiloton bomb. Divide that in half for a 10-kiloton bomb and you get 1.25 septillion atoms. The same as my original claim.

If you still have doubts for whatever reason, just perform a quick Google search on the matter.
 
Misty stuff:

Kiki senses that powerful enemies are approaching the Saints. Later, we see an Earthquake happen where Seiya and the others are. In the fairly liberal Viz Media translation, Seiya says that it's as if "the whole fuji volcanic chain is erupting". A fan translation says "It's like Mount Fuji is about to burst!". Like many things in Saint Seiya, this is the type of scenario where checking multiple translations, raw scans, etc is worth it. Seiya and the other three Saints leave Mount Fuji before they can be crushed, transported by Mu and Kiki. And moments later four other streaks of light arrive in Mt. Fuji, these being the Silver Saints. Later, when Misty catches up to Seiya on the beach, he confirms that the Earthquake was his doing. Misty only pulls up his signature attack in the next chapter when he's fighting Seiya.

So no, there's no circumstance under any understanding or interpretation that you can reach the conclusion that Misty's feat was done "by his strongest attack", specially since said attack is a wind blast and not an earthquake.
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
when calcs of what this wiki usually calls "sub-atomic destruction" have wields which seem to go contrary to that.

Which assume complete subatomic destruction of the object, not partial.
 
Dargoo Faust said:
Which assume complete subatomic destruction of the object, not partial.
I know, but my point is that the results of those calcs still don't align with the idea that kilotons = septllions of atoms
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
I know, but my point is that the results of those calcs still don't align with the idea that kilotons = septllions of atoms
A septillion atoms isn't that much, though. A penny has only one order of magnitude less atoms than that. (Meaning 10 or so pennies has > a septillion atoms)

What specifically doesn't align? Did you do a calc that contradicts what Kep is saying?
 
Dargoo Faust said:
What specifically doesn't align? Did you do a calc that contradicts what Kep is saying?
Every single calc that uses "Atomic binding energy" gives very different results?
 
Nothing about the strongest attack has ever been brought up before.

Also Misty saying that he is a "God" and that the Bronze Saints are "worms" to him isn't to be taken literally. Misty's practically Narcisus with how vain and arrogant he is. This is the man who rants about how he is the most beautiful of all of the Gods' creations while stripped naked in a beach mid-fight.

Using misty narcissism with its beauty to say that his claim about bronze saints being inferior to silver saints is false, is wrong.

This is consistently worked on saint seiya, including, more forward is portrayed as a great nonsense silver saints being defeated by bronze saints, even seiya have defeated misty.

Bronze saint vs silver saintpng
Bronze saint vs silver saintpng2
Bronze saint vs silver saintpng3

Anyway, this was just the introduction of the miracle concept into the work, so Seiya and his teammate defeated the silver saints is not because bronze saints are naturally comparable to silver saints. And it makes Misty statement totally true.
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
Every single calc that uses "Atomic binding energy" gives very different results?
So, as I established earlier, 10 pennies is ~ 2 septillion atoms.

We say the SAD value is 5.403E13 J/cc. A penny is ~ .35 cc, ten is 3.5. Multiplying this out gives us 1.891 * 10^14 J or 45.19 kilotons, or 23.5 kilotons per septillion atoms. Granted with a rather large degree of error, this is basically just an estimate, but it doesn't seem Kep was off by as much as you're making him out to be.

Could you please give an example of a calc that doesn't line up with Kep's estimate?
 
Seiya and friends were also blatantly getting stronger. Before the 12 Houses Crawl starts Seiya casually one-shot a Silver Saint.
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
Misty stuff:
So no, there's no circumstance under any understanding or interpretation that you can reach the conclusion that Misty's feat was done "by his strongest attack", specially since said attack is a wind blast and not an earthquake.
In a misrepresented interpretation you might be correct, but that's not how the work presented it. The blast of wind (marble tripper) is precisely what did that with the mount fugi, and here's scan in sequence for this to be clear [1] [2].

Here Misty makes it clear that Marble Tripper is "the sheer force made mount fuji tremble".
 
When I read Saint Seiya, I just assumed when I was reading this feat that it was atomization. Since the explanation and the implication of the power system was that very essence.

I am neutral, I guess since I am still reading it and I have a life tbh, but I think that we are honestly hair splitting at this point.
 
If the saints want to destroy all the opponent's atoms they can do it without problems as shown by Saga, at the end of the Sanctuary, against Ikki or Kanon against the specter Balron in Hades arc.

This seems more like a pathetic attempt to downgrade Saint Seiya than anything else.
 
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