Saint Seiya Discussion Thread (IV)

[StekFence]

Hmm. I was likely confused by the ova for tlc. Where it says “it’s like time stopped for them”.

 

[Lancelot_de_Cancer]

tbh i question why a lot of characters have the 8th sense. Shaka its fine for him to have, but the other characters. if i remember right were ressurected by Athena, right?

I don't think its different but we don't know a whole about the concept. its never fully elaborated upon. were always just given hints about what it can do but we don't know what its limit is.

Athena does not have the power to resurrect the dead (Athena's power can only heal some wounds and we can describe it as a rather mediocre healing compared to the power of the Golden Ophiuchus, which also does not have the power to resurrect the dead), this is a power exclusive to Hades (and the gods and warriors who have the permission of the god of the dead) as the god and creator of the world of the dead in the universe of Saint Seiya. Athena's cosmos only allows Aioria and the rest to regain their energy and escape from the Cocytus, therefore, they reached the Eighth Sense.

 

[StekFence]

Athena does not have the power to resurrect the dead, this is a power exclusive to Hades (and the gods and warriors who have the permission of the god of the dead) as the god and creator of the world of the dead in the universe of Saint Seiya. Athena's cosmos only allows Aioria and the rest to regain their energy and escape from the Cocytus, therefore, they reached the Eighth Sense.

Yes that’s what I was thinking. I’m not 100% sure tho

 

[StekFence]

I was thinking she simply, woke them up

 

[StekFence]

Only the Cancer Saint and Asmita fighting in the Underworld against a soul or enemy, can affect souls. And Sasha as a goddess can destroy souls, that's why she was able to kill Oneiros and destroy the soul of the dream gods (Tenma could not destroy the soul of Morpheus and eliminate the god forever)..

Well, didn’t tenma fight asmitas soul? Because his real body was in the sixth temple as I recall

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

Interesting thoughts, i never thought of that.

 

[Lancelot_de_Cancer]

Well, didn’t tenma fight asmitas soul? Because his real body was in the sixth temple as I recall

Tenma can never harm Asmita's soul, and Asmita describes that fight as an illusion, although Tenma feels Asmita's attacks as if they were real because he was a soul.

 

[StekFence]

Tenma can never harm Asmita's soul, and Asmita describes that fight as an illusion.

I see.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

Tenma can never harm Asmita's soul, and Asmita describes that fight as an illusion, although Tenma feels Asmita's attacks as if they were real because he was a soul.

thats at least NPI imo

 

[StekFence]

Reviewing Asmita's Gaiden and Tenma's page, it's strange that Tenma has the Eighth Sense on his page, when it is never mentioned that he reached that sense in the story.

It makes sense to me. In tlc, it’s said that the 8th sense is beyond the 7th sense. It’s the essence of cosmos. It’s done by taking the 7th sense to the limit. A god cloth is obtained when someone burns there cosmos, infinitely. Under that circumstance, it would make sense that a god cloth, which can fight against 9th sense beings, would have the 8th sense. it isn’t said, but it seems like a logical conclusion.

 

[Lancelot_de_Cancer]

It makes sense to me. In tlc, it’s said that the 8th sense is beyond the 7th sense. It’s the essence of cosmos. It’s done by taking the 7th sense to the limit. A god cloth is obtained when someone burns there cosmos, infinitely. Under that circumstance, it would make sense that a god cloth, which can fight against 9th sense beings, would have the 8th sense. it isn’t said, but it seems like a logical conclusion.

The problem is that Tenma never showed the abilities granted by the Eighth Sense in that manga. Also, in the TLC universe, the Eighth Sense is not something that the Saints can get by simply raising their cosmos, the Eighth Sense is something that requires prior knowledge (a knowledge that Tenma never gets in the story), something closer to Buddhist enlightenment, that's why Asmita and Sisyphus learn from Ilias (an enlightened being) to awaken the Eighth Sense.

In Asmita's Gaiden, Ashima (a monk who was Asmita's friend) awakened the Eighth Sense without having a powerful cosmos or even any knowledge of the cosmos.

It is even more likely that Regulus awakened the Eighth Sense, than Tenma himself, because in the end he understands the teachings of his father and uncle, and both awakened the Eighth Sense following those teachings.

 

[Lancelot_de_Cancer]

Has anyone ever looked into the galaxian encyclopedia RAWS? So far I’ve only ever seen the Portuguese translation been referenced. I found the full RAW page to the whole “Tenma kofuku is Big Bang level” that’s mentioned in the Portuguese version. As well as the technique Mu used that crated a universe too my knowledge the kanji does say universe in the databook

Tenma Kofuku is never described with the power of a big bang in the Portuguese translation of the Galaxian Encyclopedia. In the databook it only indicates that the technique has a power comparable to Saga's Galaxian Explosion.

In the manga it is never described that Mu created a universe with the Stardust Revolution, it is only indicated that he created a galaxy or mini galaxy in his hands.

Spoiler

Relevant panel being the bottom right one, Iapetos says 銀河 / ぎんが which is galaxy, not universe.

-------------------------------------------

小宇宙で銀河を作って隕石の雨を降らし百の手ごと巨人を打ち抜いた！！！

Again, 銀河 is very clearly used here, no mention of universe whatsoever.

Link to 50 RAWS for the galaxian encyclopedia if anyone can translate that’d be great there’s more coming lmao again not sure if anyone’s ever looked at the RAWS for these

This is the RAW of the Galaxian Encyclopedia that was included in Champion RED magazine (when the Episode.G chapters were published in the magazine). The Galaxian Encyclopedia that is translated into Brazilian Portuguese is the version that was included in Volume 0 of Episode.G.

 

[StekFence]

Hey so, shouldn’t Zeus have infinite reaction speed if he beat cronus.

 

[Lancelot_de_Cancer]

I see I believe it’s the French version or something that says Tenma kufuku that says Big Bang level idk that whole statement is kinda bad and wonky . Are these RAWS good to use for the series?

It is the French translation, but it is an error in the translation and the original only indicates that it is comparable to Galaxian Explosion, the Portuguese translation of the Galaxian Encyclopedia (Volume 0 version) is better.

It is possible to use these raws, but most of the images do not look good, and it would be better to use the Galaxian Encyclopedia included in Volume 0, because the Volumes are the author's definitive version, but I have never been able to get the raw of Volume 0.

 

[Lancelot_de_Cancer]

This ability of Thanatos is interesting.

Thanatos mentions that he would tear Seiya's body apart and send him to a different dimension of darkness. He would also make sure that Seiya's pain would continue forever even after death.

Thanatos: ええ~~~い八つ裂きにしても飽き足らぬ!!
Thanatos: 粉々に打ち砕いてその肉片を異次元の暗黒にばらまいてくれるわ!!
Thanatos: しかも 死んだ後も永遠に苦痛が続くようにしてな!!

Thanatos' power would either deny Seiya death to suffer eternally with his shattered body in that dimension or torture Seiya's soul after death in that dimension.

 

[StekFence]

It seems likely he would torture seiyas soul after death. In the dimension.

 

[StekFence]

I’ve read through a English translation of chapter 99 of nd. Introduces sasha in a flashback, who is ill, and shows how suikyo opened a shop and trained tenma. And oddyseus was reading through tenmas dreams, and ended the chapter by saying Suikyo is crying in the underworld. If that’s literal, then it’s impressive extrasensory.

 

[StekFence]

So now sasha has reached canonicity. Speaking of that, I find it funny how Taurus rasgados heart stopped and he just gets back up because flashbacks.

 

[StekFence]

This ability of Thanatos is interesting.

Thanatos mentions that he would tear Seiya's body apart and send him to a different dimension of darkness. He would also make sure that Seiya's pain would continue forever even after death.

Thanatos: ええ~~~い八つ裂きにしても飽き足らぬ!!
Thanatos: 粉々に打ち砕いてその肉片を異次元の暗黒にばらまいてくれるわ!!
Thanatos: しかも 死んだ後も永遠に苦痛が続くようにしてな!!

Thanatos' power would either deny Seiya death to suffer eternally with his shattered body in that dimension or torture Seiya's soul after death in that dimension.

Well, in the Lost canvas, ova at least, I didn’t check the manga yet, Thanatos says that there are spirits forever trapped and suffering in his body, which leads to Tartarus, and that they are more diminished than the normal dead. That seems to be similar.

 

[Lancelot_de_Cancer]

Something interesting about possession in Saint Seiya.

Asclepius' soul possesses Odysseus' body, even before his death, and Odysseus mentions that he came out of the Underworld (Odysseus' soul was in Cocytus), so he walked as a soul out of that place, now that he is getting Asclepius' powers and awakens as the Golden Ophiuchus.

This means that Asclepius' possession not only affects the physical body and also possesses the soul of Odysseus. Even when Odysseus travels to the Underworld as a soul for Ox, at that moment we can only see one soul and not two souls.

In the original manga, Hades mentions that Shun's soul would be eliminated when he possesses his body, therefore, Hades' possession affects the soul of his host.

Spoiler

Also in Saintia Sho it is explained that the dryads possess the soul of humans and make it their core.

Well, in the Lost canvas, ova at least, I didn’t check the manga yet, Thanatos says that there are spirits forever trapped and suffering in his body, which leads to Tartarus, and that they are more diminished than the normal dead. That seems to be similar.

It's this scene.

Spoiler

It is similar, although Thanatos mentions that he sent his souls to Tartarus where they are tortured (all souls in the world of the dead are automatically tortured by the place), something different from what is mentioned in the original manga, where Thanatos describes that he would send Seiya to a dimension of darkness and not the world of the dead, therefore Thanatos' power would continue to torture Seiya forever, not the prisons inside the Underworld.

In addition, the Specters (Kyotos) in Next Dimension can also choose the prison where their opponent's soul will be tortured. Veermer indicates that he would send Deathtoll's soul to the fourth malebolge in the eighth prison of the Underworld and also describes that after killing Ikki he would search for his soul in the Underworld and make it his servant.

Spoiler

In the original manga, when Radamanthys threw Aiolia, Mu and Milo down the hole leading to the Underworld, they fell directly into the Cocytus, therefore he chose the prison for the Saints.

 

[Lancelot_de_Cancer]

After Hades (and his servants), Eris and four Saintias sacrifice their lives to invoke the help of unknown gods, Asclepius has the most impressive healing powers in the franchise.

Asclepius says he can resurrect Odysseus and rebuild his body with just a bit of his DNA in the world. And, this confirms that Asclepius has the power to resurrect the dead.

In healing powers:
Asclepius (the best doctor of the Saint Seiya universe) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Athena and her mediocre healing powers >>>>> other gods.

 

[Lancelot_de_Cancer]

Saintia Sho Stage 85


Script in English by LGG from cdz.

Spoiler

Stage 85: Nesting Heart

P1
Shoko: She's not... breathing
Shoko: And she's cold...
Shoko: Is she really... dead...?
????: Shoko...?
????: Are you ok?

P2 & P3
Elda: How is Lady Athena...?
Shoko: Girls....!!
Katya: Damn... No response
Katya?: Her soul lost all its strenght
Katya?: Trying to bring her body back would be pointless

P4
Elda: We'll have to bring her back
Elda: With Athena EX-Resurrection
Shoko: .......... Huh?
Shoko: And that is....?
Katya: Athena EX-Resurrection...
It's a forbidden technique taught to the Saintias from generation to generation
A secret know only by Saintias to resurrect Athena by offering their own lives
Shoko: Offering...
Shoko: Their own lives...?

P5
Xiao: Our lives
Xiao: Literally
Shoko: What.....
Shoko: Then....
Mii: Right...
Mii: For us, who should "nest to Athena's heart"
Mii: This technique is a huge taboo
Mii: Miss Saori would never want something like that...
Katya: That's all we can do now
Katya: After all, we live for Athena
Elda: So Shoko...
Elda: We're counting on you
Shoko: ............ What?

P6
Elda: You didn't train at the Academy
Elda: So you can't use Athena EX Resurrection
Elda: Then, you're the only one left to give her this
Shoko: Eh.....
Shoko: I'll be the only one left....?
Shoko: You....
Elda?: It wouldn't be nice if Athena woke up all alone, right?

P7
Katya: They're under protection of Lady Arthemis (??)
Xiao: Convey our feelings
Xiao: To Lady Athena
Mii: Please, Shoko
Elda: And don't make that face
Elda: This is our job
Elda: We came here to do this, right?

P8
Saintias: We entrust Athena
Saintia: To you, Shoko
Shoko ...............

P9
Shoko: Leave it
Shoko: To me!

P10
Elda: Oh, great gods
Katya: Please, hear our plea
Xiao: Take our lives
Mii: And, once again, light up Athena's life
E acendam novamente a vida da deusa Atena

P11
ATHENA EX-RESURRECTION

P12/P13
-

P14
-

P15
Saori: .... Shoko....?

P16
Saori: Girls...
Saori: You.... For me...?

P17
Shoko: Saori...
Shoko: Take this...
Shoko: I'm sorry....

P18
Shoko: Me, alone... That's not enough
Shoko: But, you see.... There's only me....
Shoko: But I swear I'll protect you
Shoko: To the end......!!
Saori: Shoko...

P19
Saori?: I understand...
Saori?: The feelings of all of you
Saori?: It's okay
Saori?: Even if it's broken or in pieces
Saori: .... There's nothing more hearthening
Saori: Than you being here

P20 & P21
-

P22
Shoko: ....!? The Equuleus Cloth
Shoko: Changed its form...?
Shoko: It's so pretty...
Saori: ........
Saori: That......
Apple: You finally did it
Apple: This is the proof you can communicate with Athena's heart [so... they're gay, right?]
Apple: The true Cloth of a Saintia... "Dress"
Shoko: .........!!

P23
Kyoko/Eris: Shoko... Born under an evil star
Kyoko/Eris: You can finally wear it... né?
Kyoko/Eris: The two stars of strife, destined to destroy each other
Saori: No
Saori: I won't let that happen, Eris

P24 & P25
Saori: As the goddess who protects the Earth
Saori: I will defeat you...!!
Kyoko/Éris: Pff... Don't make me laugh
Kyoko/Éris: You, who resigned to fight until the end of the end, will defeat

P26
Kyoko/Éris: The Earth will always be in strife
Kyoko/Éris: As you wish a world without strife
Kyoko/Éris: Just ago, in the bottom of darkness, you were pleased with a dream of happiness
Kyoko/Éris: You are unworthy to be called the "goddess of war", Athena
Saori: Kgh...

P27
Saori: Shoko....!!
Shoko: You're wrong...

P28
Shoko: It's this Saori
Shoko: Who we believe in and who we fight for!!

Saintias: 大いなる神々よ
Saintias: この祈りをどうか聞き届けたまえ
Saintias: われらの命とひきかえに
Saintias: アテナ様の命に再び灯火を...!
Saintias: Athena Ex-Resurrection

Which Great Gods (大いなる神々) invoked the Saintias that can even resurrect and heal the soul of an Olympus god?.

These unknown Great Gods >>>>>>>>>>>>> Olympian gods >>>> Primordial gods >>>> Titans and other gods.

An interesting concept that Kuori introduces in the penultimate chapter of the manga.
----------------------------------------------
Eris defeats Athena and destroys Nike with a single attack.

Spoiler

Eris defeats five Gold Saints with a single attack.

Spoiler

Eris defeats Evil Saga (Lemur) with divine power and amplified by Athena's cosmos with a single attack.

Spoiler

Chad Shoko (with Dress) stops Eris' attack.

An interesting concept that Kuori introduces in the penultimate chapter of the manga.

 

[StekFence]

Asmitas profile has time stop on it, strange

 

[Hasty12345]

The LC profiles could probs be deleted tbh

 

[StekFence]

The LC profiles could probs be deleted tbh

Or at least revised

 

[StekFence]

Even if someone just pasted Shakas page onto asmitas and that’s it, it would be leagues better than it is now

 

[Lancelot_de_Cancer]

Even if someone just pasted Shakas page onto asmitas and that’s it, it would be leagues better than it is now

The Lost Canvas, Saintia Sho and Episode.G exclusive character pages need to be revised.

To remove some abilities and add others.

Even if someone just pasted Shakas page onto asmitas and that’s it, it would be leagues better than it is now

Asmita and Shaka have some different abilities, because the author changed some techniques and does not have the information that Kurumada added in the last manga.

For example Asmita's Rukudo Rinnei is just an illusion and the Tenkūhaja Chimimōryō was never shown what the effect of the technique (Asmita only uses this technique to destroy a barrier) and it was also not described what its effect was in that manga, and the field created by the Tenbu Horim does not seem to have the law prohibiting all attack and defense of the opponent (because his opponent could always attack after activating the Tenbu Horin). Although Asmita can remove the Seventh Sense and the Eighth Sense, which as I described does not work the same way as in the original manga.

 

[StekFence]

The Lost Canvas, Saintia Sho and Episode.G exclusive character pages need to be revised.

To remove some abilities and add others.

Asmita and Shaka have some different abilities, because the author changed some techniques and does not have the information that Kurumada added in the last manga.

For example Asmita's Rukudo Rinnei is just an illusion and the Tenkūhaja Chimimōryō was never shown what the effect of the technique (Asmita only uses this technique to destroy a barrier) and it was also not described what its effect was in that manga, and the field created by the Tenbu Horim does not seem to have the law prohibiting all attack and defense of the opponent (because his opponent could always attack after activating the Tenbu Horin). Although Asmita can remove the Seventh Sense and the Eighth Sense, which as I described does not work the same way as in the original manga.

Hmm, the things that shaka does are canon to lc, so I would hav imagined that since asmita and shaka use the same techniques, along with the fact that shaka and his abilities effects are canon to lc, that they would have the same effects. But I see what you mean

 

[Lancelot_de_Cancer]

The Chapter 6 of Dark Wing shows a new Specter who has an interesting ability.

Terrestrial Canine Star (地狗星), Laelaps Suzuri (ライラプスの鈴里)

Charlotte indicates that she cannot see Suzuri's sword attack (Gordian Knot Amputation, ゴルディアンノッ トアンプテーション), and then explains that it is a fast blade that seems to cut through even cause and effect (causality).

Spoiler

Page 18
Charlotte: 全く反応できませんでした...
Charlotte: まるで因果すら切断するかのような、迅速の刃...!
Julius: パンドラ、ネクロマンサー
Julius: 今回の聖戦はまだ一年以上先
Julius: それまで静かに過ごすといい

Hmm, the things that shaka does are canon to lc, so I would hav imagined that since asmita and shaka use the same techniques, along with the fact that shaka and his abilities effects are canon to lc, that they would have the same effects. But I see what you mean

Not really, LC is its own universe unrelated to the original manga, therefore, the feats and abilities of the characters are not the same, it even has several different concepts and ideas, for example the Saints get their powers from Athena in that world (similar to Hades with the Specters and Poseidon with the Mariner), even the Ara Saint can eliminate the cosmos of the Saints and Athena seals the cosmos of Yato and Yuzuriha, a rather silly concept for what is presented in the original manga where Athena does not grant anything to the Saints, that's why they are always betraying the goddess.

Another example of a different concept, the Superdimension in LC is very different from what is described in the original manga, even it is not a creation of Hades and it is only a path that the gods use to travel to other places, that's why it is named as the "path of the gods" in that manga and Aspros mentions that Kairos has to cross that path to travel to Olympus, therefore, it is not part of the world of the dead. And this could change the speed of the characters in this universe, because it's just a portal that the gods use to travel to other places (like the Another Dimension of Aspros and Deuteros, but used by the gods).

 

[StekFence]

explains that it is a fast blade that seems to cut through even cause and effect (causality)

What power would that even be.

 

[StekFence]

Hmm, so I’ve been thinking, do you think kanon could get Poseidon’s trident as optional equipment? He did use it to try and kill ker, even grazing her.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

I'm not seeing any big differences with core concepts such as basic cosmo powers, the 6th sense and the 7th sense and the 8th sense between the works. I have no idea where this misunderstanding is coming from.

Sure the signature moves of the Gold Saints can vary, yeah, but the core concepts remain intact.

 

[Lancelot_de_Cancer]

I'm not seeing any big differences with core concepts such as basic cosmo powers, the 6th sense and the 7th sense and the 8th sense between the works. I have no idea where this misunderstanding is coming from.

Sure the signature moves of the Gold Saints can vary, yeah, but the core concepts remain intact.

The basic concepts (especially those that are well explained in the original manga) such as the explanation of Cosmos, Sixth and Seventh Sense are the same between the works, including armor resistance and other concepts in the works. But others such as the Eighth Sense is different in TLC and the original manga, because Shiori could not know the new changes and additions of Kurumada to the franchise, that's why in TLC the Specters are affected by the Seki Shiki and in Next Dimension they are immune to this technique.

What power would that even be.

This is a good question. What power is a sword that cuts even cause and effect?

Hmm, so I’ve been thinking, do you think kanon could get Poseidon’s trident as optional equipment? He did use it to try and kill ker, even grazing her.

We can also add the Sword of Chrysus as an optional equipment to Ikki, because the Pope gave him the sword to kill Athena.

 

[StekFence]

We can also add the Sword of Chrysus as an optional equipment to Ikki, because the Pope gave him the sword to kill Athena.

Libra weapons for the 5 bronzes work as well?

 

[StekFence]

and then explains that it is a fast blade that seems to cut through even cause and effect (causality).

Through speed?

 

[StekFence]

Is that even a quantifiable speed feat?

 

[Lancelot_de_Cancer]

Kurumada changed the description of Shaina's attack in the Final Edition.

Spoiler

(ま->ま...)まるで全身を(なん万->百万)ボ ルトもの電撃でえぐられたみたいだあ (〜〜〜〜->…)
É... É como se um choque elétrico de (dezenas de milhares -> milhões) de volts tivesse atingido meu corpo...

Now Seiya indicates that it is millions of volts, not tens of thousands of volts as he described in the original manga.

I hope Kurumada will also change the dialogue in the description of the chain of Andromeda.

Through speed?

Is that even a quantifiable speed feat?

It is probable.

 

[StekFence]

Millions, that’s a nice buff

 

[StekFence]

It is probable.

Infinite if we are lucky.

 

[Lancelot_de_Cancer]

Why are the gods (Hades, Poseidon, Cronus, Athena, etc.) conceptual beings?

In the link of the description of this ability appears this image.

Spoiler

"You may have destroyed me... But, for as long as conflicts exist... Without a shadow of a doubt... The battlefields, the smell of blood... Will allow me to return once more."

So Eris, the Goddess of Discord, explicitly says that she cannot be killed as long as there is conflict remaining. Saint Seiya Gods are manifestations of the concept / thing they rule over, and cannot die for as long as that remains.

But this is only for Eris, who is a conceptual being by that description, but is the only god in the franchise to be described that way.

In the story of Saint Sho, Eris' power is amplified by the conflicts in the world, to the point that she is now more powerful than Athena, because she is a goddess connected with the concept that she represents, but other gods do not have that ability, for example Athena's power does not increase with war, Hades' power does not increase with death and Poseidon's power does not increase with the oceans.

In the last chapters of Saintia Sho it is even explained that a god like Eris cannot exist in a world without conflict.

Spoiler

P24
Shoko: I know it, okay...!
Shoko: Saori certainly wishes something like that
Shoko: But... Shoko: Not this world where my sister doesn't exist!
Shoko: Saori... surely Shoko: Wishes to release my sister from battles
Shoko: In a peaceful world, that's her desire!!
P25
Shoko: ..... Can't you grant it....?
Eris/Kyoko: ...Impossible (...無理よ)
Kyoko/Eris: I am Eris, I can't exist in a world with no strife (わたしはエリス争いのない世界では生きられない)
Kyoko/Eris: !?
Shoko: So... I will grant it...!!
Shoko: If you can't...
Shoko: I won't give up on fulfilling Saori's wish!!

Is there any other description in the franchise that indicates that the gods are conceptual beings?.

Infinite if we are lucky.

Now that Saintia Sho finishes the next chapter, Dark Wing could replace Saintia Sho as the manga with the best feats of the franchise.