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Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to today's show of Saikou's Circus of the Disquieting. Let's see our contenders!
On the right corner, one of the most memed indie game, has been bleeding downgrades ever since Azzy left his throne, weighting 155 megabytes and being 10 hours long: Undertale!
The audience cheers
On the left corner, the slayer of Chuck Norris, the wanker of Yume Nikki and the harbinger of lewd verses to the wiki: Saikou!
The audience laughs
Now, let us begin the massacre!
Determination is a Lie
So ladies and gentlemen, the first thing we need for our show is to acknowledge the following: Stats boost by determination is a lie. Never has determination been shown, stated or implied to be able to passively cause boosts to one's stats like that automatically each time the user faces an enemy. The only thing coming close to this is Undyne the Undying rebuilding herself a stronger form using determination. However, this is a very specific application that Frisk has never shown to be able to do, let alone to be using it each time they fight someone.
Considering how Determination is defined as the will to live in the game, I think it's rather clear that the uses of determination are solely based around surviving (such as time manipulation or Regenerationn), and not stats amping.
Now this means that we're left with a Frisk fighting opponents varying from 9-A to 2-B for no reason. We could just take the easy route and say that there is no actual power difference between the monsters or that Frisk is too inconsistent to rate properly. But there is an actual canon explanation for all this that we've been ignoring. Let's get to it!
Monsters Are Fodder
It's been a thoroughly explained fact that monsters in Undertale are weak to intent! A monster who does not wish to fight will have weakened defenses, and similarily, a monster fighting a human with a cruel intent will suffer more damage. This is expanded further by Sans, who goes on to explain that humans distancing themselves emotionally also means that they take less damage from monsters.
This essentially means that a monster faced against a non-monster who has any kind of bloodlust effectively lowers their defense and power drastically. To me this is a much more logical conclusion than assuming a determination boost. The monsters have simply lowered defenses and lowered attack to the point where they're unable to fight off a child like Frisk.
This is further increased when Frisk has higher bloodlust. LOVE and EXP are a way of showing this. As stated explicitly by Sans, LV represents how bloodlusted and distant one is, meaning they take less damage from enemies and deal more damage in return. Essentially, this means that neither Determination nor LV are stats amps. And thus, Frisk does not scale to monsters and vice versa.
Frisk's New Tier
As stated before, Frisk does not scale to monsters, as they get weakened by Frisk's bloodlust. Which means Frisk now only has one key and no higher state of power. And these stats are important to figure out, as they are the basis for the entire's verse weakness to bloodlust power. So we can shave off a bunch of feats already:
-Frisk falling in the underground isn't a dura feat. Their fall was explicitly softened by the flowers, and the same fall without the flowers was enough to severely wound Chara before. Plus we don't know the height, so we can't really know if it would be anything that a human can't survive
-The hole created by Frisk in Waterfall can't exactly be assumed to be from sheer strength, as it is the result of a specific point being interacted with. I doubt that Frisk can just punch out any walls.
-The heat in Hotland is way too inconsistent for us to that take cup vaporization feat seriously. Even far deeper in Hotland, ice and snow can exist (at least temporarily), plants don't burn up, tons of organic stuff doesn't burn up, etc. I'd honestly take the cup vaporization feat as a gag feat, given how it doesn't match up at all with how Hotland is portrayed outside of that.
So all that remains is the oven feat in Undyne's home. Which is fine and all but uh. It honestly sounds like an outlier to me at this point. Without the scaling and the other feats, Frisk really is just a regular human. A regular child at that. And none of the weaker monsters like the ones below Undyne show any feats remotely close to 9-A. So to me, 9-A scaling to Frisk is an outlier. It would be fine for Undyne to keep it though.
This would result in some serious stats changes for the lower tiers though, as 9-A wouldn't scale to everyone. The version of Undyne who took the feat has an ATK stat of 41. So anyone above or near it would scale to it. Mettaton would be 9-A. Armored Undyne would be At least 9-A. Asgore and Toriel would be At least 9-A, possibly higher. Undying and NEO would both be Unknow, given how superior they are to everything else in the verse. Muffet would be Possibly 9-A.
As for the lower tiers, I'm not sure. We'd have to calc the KE of Papyrus' giant bone attack for the mid-tiers and the KE of Froggit's jump attack for the absolutely bottom tiers. Sans and Snowdrake's Mom would be Unknow.
And of course, due to the monster weakness mentioned above, all those Tier 9 stats barely matter. Their tier would resemble this: Small Building level, Below Average Human level when faced against bloodlust. The amount of bloodlust needed for this is really low, as even base Frisk can reduce them to 10-C. However, a super pacifist opponent who doesn't want to fight might not affect them at all, as Frisk later couldn't hurt Undyne even when trying to. But still, most opponents would reduce them to 10-C.
Chara, Flowey and Asriel
So the God tiers. Might have some changes to do here too.
First off some of the very few good stuff in this thread. Chara's AP should be just 2-B. As stated by Sans, each LOAD creates a timeline. And there is no way in hell that there were less than 1000 loads, as Flowey reset enough time to know every single possible event in the underground. Even assuming that there are only 104 monsters (the amount that can be killed in Genocide) and that there are only two states that a monster can exist in (alive and dead), the number of timelines would easily reach into the nine thousand. So Chara should just be 2-B.
Also Chara should get some abilities given back. As Chara's soul was destroyed back in the whole Asriel debacle and that Chara does not use their physical body in the game proper, Chara effectively came back from nothing at all to be with the player. This would mean Mid-Godly Regenerationn. While yes this could be argued to be an extension of the Type 8, we still give Regenerationn for such Type 8s or 9s, so it would work. I would also propose to give back Chara at least a "Possibly Abstract Existence (Type 1). Chara not only lacks a physical body at all, but they pretty explicitly state themselves to directly be the feeling they describe themselves to be.
"HP. ATK. DEF. GOLD. EXP. LV. Every time a number increases, that feeling... That's me. "Chara.""
At the very least this should be Type 2 Abstract. But I do think that Chara seems more fitting for Type 1. So a "possibly Type 1" would be nice.
Now for the bad stuff. First of all, Flowey is not a monster, so he scales similarly to Frisk (as in, he doesn't scale to monster). However he IS able to effortlessly nearly kill Frisk, as well as shut elevator doors shut. So Flowey should be Street level.
Secondly, Photoshop Flowey should not scale to Chara. Chara is not Frisk and LVs are not stats upgrades. So Flowey being LV 9999 doesn't matter. And while Flowey does affect the game, we have no reason to assume that this extends to the various timelines created from LOADS. It works for Chara, as Chara just destroys and leaves (and the player would be able to access these timelines if they still existed), but Flowey directly controls the game, so we can't assume that his feat is on the degree of Chara's.
The best we could get for him is his savestate feats. As with DDLC, multiple save files in a game implies timelines. A savefile is effectively a copy of an alternate state of the game world. And Flowey not only destroyed Frisk's file, he also created and overwrote his own many savefiles. Now he kinda does this one by one instead of all at once so it might not be truly 2-C. So I propose "Low 2-C, possibly 2-C" for Photoshop Flowey.
As to why Frisk can fight Flowey? I think it's fairly obvious that Flowey is holding back the entire fight. He shows later on that he can easily one-shot Frisk at any point, and he only desires to torture them. Frisk is only able to damage him once the souls start to reduce his defenses. While yes, Frisk can do the infamous 1 HP of damage before that, I would chalk that off as Flowey taunting the player, as it makes no sense for Frisk to be able to damage Flowey in base. On that note, Flowey should have a 10-C/10-B durability mention for when the souls drain him of his power.
Asriel, for similar reasons, should not scale to Chara. His first key would "Low 2-C, possibly 2-C" for scaling to Flowey and for his own Low 2-C feat. His second key would just be "At least Low 2-C, possibly 2-C" due to being unquantifiably above his first form.
Before you ask, yes, Asriel would have the same weakness of 10-C via bloodlust. It's the reason why he can't kill Frisk. However it's a bit more complex than that, as it's established that a monster with a single human soul can potentially wipe out humanity. However, this seems to only apply if the monster has a desire to kill. When Asriel was faced with the humans, he deliberately held back his desire for murder, letting the humans murder him in the process, same way as other monsters. The same goes for Asriel against Frisk. Asriel seriously lacks the will to kill Frisk by the end of the fight, which is arguably the only part of the fight where Asriel can be assumed to be fighting at full power. Frisk's attempt at saving him, on top of Frisk's own regen and shit due to determination, essentially allows them to survive Asriel's last attacks. So technically a full bloodlusted Asriel could ignore this weakness and just go full Low 2-C. So his 10-C stat would be from a combination of monster weakness and lack of bloodlust.
Oh and yeah the Annoying Dog. Shouldn't scale to anything. A "crash" is too ambiguously defined to attribute it to any tier.
Speed
So speed is a bit of a mess right now. We have a solid calc for Subsonic+ at Greater Dog's level, but then everyone just randomly gets upscaled from that to a ridiculous level. Seriously we have Supersonic+ stuff upscaling from Subsonic+. It makes absolutely no sense. There is no amp numbers or anything, just "should be faster", which is based on nothing too. Nothing says that stronger monsters are faster. Sure we like to assume that this is the case by default, but it's not even remotely supported here outside of skill feats from Asgore.
Now the problem with speed is that it isn't affected by monster weakness. So this means that Frisk does scale to it, as well as just about anything that can fight them. Everyone Subsonic+. But the true issue comes with the God tiers. Frisk blatantly dodges chunks of the universe being eaten by Asriel (MFTL+, if not higher) and there are some void feats going on (maybe infinite). But as said before, Frisk gets no speed boost, nor does anyone's speed gets reduced. So Frisk dodging MFTL+ stuff is the same Frisk that couldn't properly react to Greater Dog's sound. So it's weird. Personally I'd just put the god tiers are Unknown due to that. Everyone at Subsonic+ except for the god tiers, who are Unknown.
Oh and yeah the Annoying Dog. Shouldn't be Omnipresent. There is no reasoning for it beyond the crash thing, and even then, surviving multiversal erasure isn't grounds for omnipresence.
Other Stuff
-The lifting strength of Flowey, Asriel, Chara and the Annoying Dog should be Unknown. There is no reasoning for that.
-Deltarune, when it eventually comes, shouldn't be affected by most of the above. Susie, a monster, is shown fighting non-monsters perfectly fine, even ones with intense bloodlust (such as the King). So we can assume that monster weaknesses don't apply in Deltarune.
-Sans' durability negation isn't really durability negation anymore. It's a 10-C dealing rapid chip damage to another 10-C. So Sans' "durability negation" only works on 10-Cs. Yes he does kill Flowey, who is 9-C in AP, but there are not many reasons to think that Flowey is 9-C in durability, as he easily dies to Frisk despite the lack of monster weakness.
-However, I'd like to propose new hax for Sans. Most importantly, his dodging. Right now it's treated as high speed, which is dumb and goes against the point of the character (that is, a character with very low stats but who cheats in order to beat his opponents). So instead let's take a closer look at how he keeps dodging. He dodges outside of his own turn. Now turn by turn combat doesn't actually exist in-universe, monsters don't really "wait" till the opponent is finished or anything. In that sense, the turn by turn combat system is just a representation of the flow of time in combat. It represents the events of the fight linearly, and interacting with this system would probably mean interacting with time.
If we take this as true, it'd mean that Sans' final attack would actually be some form of time stop. By preventing the battle (aka the flow of time) from progressing, Sans incapacitates both Frisk and himself. It's rather specific time stop, as Frisk and Sans can still do minor movements, but still. On that note, it would give Frisk limited resistance to time stop.
But more importantly, Sans' dodging is based around it. He effectively dodges in Frisk's turn, which shouldn't be possible. With the above assumption, I think this would give Sans some sort of automatic time slow/stop. When Sans gets attacked, time slows for him just enough to allow him to dodge the attack. And yes it's automatic, as Sans literally did this while sleeping.
This...probably means something for Sans damaging the player in the menu (maybe the ability to attack in stopped time or something) and for Flowey completely removing this system (time destruction?) but idk.
Conclusion
-All DT users lose the ability to get their stats amplified by it, outside of Undying
-Frisk gets downgraded to 10-C. Flowey becomes 9-C
-Monsters get a mention about how their power weakens significantly when fighting against opponents with a desire to kill, with their power weakening to 10-C.
-Monsters below Undyne needs new feats to scale to.
-Chara becomes straight up 2-B, gains back Mid-Godly and Abstract Existence Type 2, maybe Type 1
-Flowey no longer scales to Chara and is instead Low 2-C to 2-C. Also gains 10-C dura when the souls turn on him
-Asriel just scales above Flowey and gains 10-C stats if he isn't willing to kill and if his opponents are bloodlusted.
-Annoying Dog becomes Unknown
-Everyone becomes Subsonic+ except for the God Tier, who stay Unknown. Annoying Dog loses Omnipresence.
-Immeasurable lifting strength gets removed
-Sans' durability negation is noted to only work via repeated 10-C attacks.
-Sans gains time stop and automatic/passive time stop upon getting attacked
So yeah, let the suffering begins
