Saber Musashi vs Yhwach

[The_Prince_of_Counters]

Why is Yhwach fighting a smurf exactly? If she has 2-A shit that means Yhwach can't null or you know, just be Yhwach. ( Gonna make a thread soon that'll give Yhwach type 4 Acausality so hopefully if accepted it'll help here.)) Also what does her Acausality scale from? Yhwach had solid feats of bypassing Resistance to precog from Mimihagi and can still fate hax himself after absorbing Mimihagi.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

I mean her acausality isn't really a problem, it's just her invulnerability.

 

[The_Prince_of_Counters]

Can someone explain her Invulnerability? Going off the profile it screams NLF but I'm assuming it's a lot more watered down than what the profile says.

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

Can someone explain her Invulnerability? Going off the profile it screams NLF but I'm assuming it's a lot more watered down than what the profile says.

Its invulnerability that prevents enemy attacks from reaching her unless they have a certain mentality. Theoretically, even Nameless Saber would not be able to effect her if not for his mentality of Infinity.

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

Thats not really a reason for it to work tbh. Seems like just assumptions, unless there is some specific mechanic behind it

We have no idea why the **** his flaming hellscape worked, but since they share most of their essential properties, it should be fine

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

Why is Yhwach fighting a smurf exactly? If she has 2-A shit that means Yhwach can't null or you know, just be Yhwach. ( Gonna make a thread soon that'll give Yhwach type 4 Acausality so hopefully if accepted it'll help here.)) Also what does her Acausality scale from? Yhwach had solid feats of bypassing Resistance to precog from Mimihagi and can still fate hax himself after absorbing Mimihagi.

You say that like Yhwach can't kick the ass of multiple notable smurfs. He can't null her, but he can still at least escape the fate hax of her mystic eyes alive for the reasons I said above. Her acausality scales from her being a walking singularity in and of herself, who has no beginning because her original timeline never existed due to being culled. I don't think anyone here really had issues with him using his precog, but it's really only gonna save him defensively, because trying to outright trump him means he is gonna fail due to her fate hax being of a higher scale. Him getting acausality won't really mean much either, since she is comparable in fate hax to Kojiro who can fate hax acausal beings like herself, at least if not for her own techniques

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

The aura is multiple things not just a single thing, even says so in the description.
Zanka No Taichi is just really hot outside of certain abilities. Disintegration Is just disintegrating weaker beings around yourself. Based off your response it seems you're kinda just picking what works and doesn't tbh.

Cool, but the mechanism is still soul aura, so its gonna get yeeted by that anyway.

It's more that the air is hot enough to turn a servant's lungs to ash, and shit like that. If you mean picking and choosing as in comparing what has worked and what hasn't, then yes, but beyond that no.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

What is a soul aura? the disintegration isn't soul manipulation dude that is just the soul crush that people usually only know. It can paralyze, instill fear, crush you soul, and disintegrate you as shown by Aizen via massive gaps in power.

So her invulnerability doesn't work against heat because the heat itself burns the lungs? Then I'm confused as to why he literally can't just TK her blowing her up from within, or crushing her bones and herself completely. I see no reason why this wouldn't work when even something such as intense heat in an area can bypass it.

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

Yes, but the point is that all those effects are still fundamentally done via the Reiatsu crush, which is a power based in and comes from the soul and other spiritual forces. Servants resist the chaos tide, which does soul manip to inflict various other effects along with the overwriting of their saint graph, and this would be no different.

Because those attacks still have to "reach" her. For whatever reason, heat and firey air has shown to work, which is honestly seemingly arbitrary as to why this was deemed to work when far more intense and powerful abilities fail before it. Also, the reality marble didn't like, kill her instantly. The implication is that she would have died due to remaining in the effect for a prolonged period of time, but they managed to escape due to Muramasa's conceptual cutting of the reality marble. If Yhwach is gonna win, he is probably gonna need to keep his flames up for a long ass time while avoiding her killing him

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

bump

 

[GLHF22]

Can Musashi kill low-godly? From what i know she cant kill low-godly, Buddha cant escaped from her attack doesnt mean he Will die if Musashi land a hit on him heck Buddha has His own invulnerabilty (Enlightenment of the Sacred fig EX) i think Yhwach can takes this via outlives her or let her ran out of stamina.

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

She can destroy souls, so yes, and her Karma and "certainty" killing works on roughly the same scale. She also exists beyond time and her and Kojiro played out every possibility of every clash they had at every moment so I don't think you can reliably say she can run out of stamina. The statement is also pretty clear on the implication that it is meant to be fatal or at least damaging to him, so you deny that they have the AP to do it then still have durability negation. Also, Kojiro has already shown the ability to ignore invulnerability with infinity, as he can ignore Musashi's invulnerability but that may be more a weakness of her ability specifically, it isn't quite clear.

 

[TOAAPRESENCE1]

Can Musashi kill low-godly? From what i know she cant kill low-godly, Buddha cant escaped from her attack doesnt mean he Will die if Musashi land a hit on him heck Buddha has His own invulnerabilty (Enlightenment of the Sacred fig EX) i think Yhwach can takes this via outlives her or let her ran out of stamina.

The Yhwach that they are using is the nerfed Yhwach so he does not have low-godly.

 

[GLHF22]

She can destroy souls, so yes, and her Karma and "certainty" killing works on roughly the same scale. She also exists beyond time and her and Kojiro played out every possibility of every clash they had at every moment so I don't think you can reliably say she can run out of stamina.

She did die in the battle and Kojiro survives though, i thought servant soul manip isnt applicable ? And how she can bypass resistance to soul manip?

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

She still won the fight and the amount of stamina it took is probably not quantifiable, but it's almost certainly inexhaustible on any fathomable scale. She didn't die due to wounds succumbed in that battle iirc. Look at the description of her blade. It reached the spiritual core of her enemies, and the karma and certainty killing works on the same scale

 

[GLHF22]

So now you are saying she have infinite stamina?

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

No, I think I was very clear on that. We don't know what it was necessarily, but to fight outside of time and space and play out an infinite amount of actions takes an amount we can't determine, but it is larger than any about of time we could come up with.

 

[GLHF22]

More action, more powerful attack require more stamina/energy, you may have a very powerful attack but the cost is also become bigger, and Musashi didnt demonstrate that she can fight in that state for all day, even the battle with Kojiro didnt last that long.

 

[Zel97]

No, I think I was very clear on that. We don't know what it was necessarily, but to fight outside of time and space and play out an infinite amount of actions takes an amount we can't determine, but it is larger than any about of time we could come up with.

Shouldnt she have infinite stamina though? She had an infinite amount of clashes against sasaki beyond space-time with her only winning because of gudao (iirc). If she doesnt have infinite stamina then she should have a crazy high stamina to the point where it might just be unquantifiable (but aint that just infinite stamina tho :Hugethonk

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

More action, more powerful attack require more stamina/energy, you may have a very powerful attack but the cost is also become bigger, and Musashi didnt demonstrate that she can fight in that state for all day, even the battle with Kojiro didnt last that long.

She performed an unfathomable amount of actions, and saying that she would even act "all day" misses the point since she has surpassed the limitations of space and time. You have no idea how "long" they were in that void from their perspective, because since they were moving outside the time flow, of course it would seem like they were only gone for a few moments

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

Shouldnt she have infinite stamina though? She had an infinite amount of clashes against sasaki beyond space-time with her only winning because of gudao (iirc). If she doesnt have infinite stamina then she should have a crazy high stamina to the point where it might just be unquantifiable (but aint that just infinite stamina tho :Hugethonk

Yea, basically

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

Bump

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

Bump

 

[DragonEmperor23]

If only a certain mentality can touch Musashi while she is in this state, can't we just call Amakusa's RM effecting her despite not having the mentality PIS?

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

It works via attacks not reaching her, so for some reason the nature of the attack let them get around it. It isn't the conventional type of invulnerability. We shouldn't press the PIS button unless there isnt an explanation that maintains the narrative cohesion of the story

 

[DragonEmperor23]

So what's the explanation? That it was an AOE, heat based attack?

 

[Zenjutsu]

Avenger Amakusa's Reality Marble was largely born from his hatred and pain of losing his men and his friends in the Battle of Hara Castle. Which is more aptly described as a massacre.


Musashi could feel his emotions, and in doing so, her abilities were impeded. It was Muramasa who impromptu-casted the Kusanagi and cut the whole thing clean in half.


It isn't PIS. It's a testament to how strong Avenger Amakusa's hatred was, and how deep his pain went that it reached Musashi. However, she had only JUST achieved Zero, so she may not have had much experience with it yet.

 

[DragonEmperor23]

That explanation fits then. Zanka Taichi isn't a flame of hate. It won't bypass Musashi's invul.

 

[Zenjutsu]

No, no. That's not it.


A Flame of strong enough EMOTION would suffice. Amakusa's was hate, but it doesn't HAVE to be.


Musashi is actually alive throughout the story of Shimosa. At the end, she dies after winning her fight against Kojiro, but has already bonded with Ritsuka. After being summoned to Chaldea, she falls in love with him/her. There are some references in the 2019 JP Summer Event that Musashi could only be defeated because Ritsuka was on the other side.


Edit: I'm an idiot. It's the 2019 Summer Event on JP.

 

[DragonEmperor23]

I see. The attacks not reaching her and her ability to create futures are different right? Since her eye powers are better than Yhwach's, can't she just create a future where she doesn't get hit/wins?

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

I see. So her invulnerability is something like what iihiko shishime has? If you can get her to recognize your strong emotions, or have her feel strong emotions towards you, your attacks will effect her?

 

[DragonEmperor23]

Iap why would you make that connection now everyone is just going to call it NLF and put a note on her page that makes her unable to battle.

 

[Zenjutsu]

I see. So her invulnerability is something like what iihiko shishime has? If you can get her to recognize your strong emotions, or have her feel strong emotions towards you, your attacks will effect her?

Ritsuka is a special case. I think that, at least, should be obvious enough already. Yhwach isn't inciting strong emotion (if any AT ALL) in Musashi anytime soon. Especially given that they were literally thrown at each other and told to fight by some higher-dimensional council of, you know, the lot of us.


It MIGHT have been different if she was part of Bleach's story, but she's seen all kinds of suck during her travels before Shimosa anyway.


Amakusa...well, it was literally its own Reality with Musashi physically trapped inside it. It was a clustersuck of physical and mental and magical attacks on many levels. I think there's even a conceptual attack in there against Japan.


I know the Zanka Taichi can at least produce the physical and magical aspect of Amakusa's RM. The question of whether it can hurt her is how well it can reproduce the mental aspect.

 

[BakiHanma18]

I'm not sure if we're chalking Kotomine's success up to AOE heat or emotions, but to clarify about the disintegration aura, it isn't the same type of aura as Soul crush aura. This aura is explicitly one of the paths of Yama's bankai, it is an aura, but not Yama's (or any other generic) aura for soul crush. If it shouldn't work, Yama's bankai in general shouldn't work

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

It honestly feels at times that a lot is being pulled out of nowhere with Musashi and things are just made overly, unnecessarily complicated.

 

[Zenjutsu]

Well, we have a mechanical Artemis that fires orbital lazers.

Did I mention that Paris--you know, Prince of Troy who took Helen--uses what's practically a magical RPG?


And according to Qin Shi Huang's dialogue in the story (and with comparison), her orbital weapon is STILL not as powerful as a full-power blast from the Great Wall that encircles the planet and took 300+ years to build.


Fate is...pretty wild.

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

It honestly feels at times that a lot is being pulled out of nowhere with Musashi and things are just made overly, unnecessarily complicated.

To be fair, Nasu is so bare bones on how her invulnerability works in the description that we have so little to work with. It probably feels that way due to this.

 

[The_Prince_of_Counters]

Honestly I'm getting a lot of "NLF" from Musashi's invun.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

I'll be honest, her Invulnerability sounds very much like flowery language that for some reason was decided to be used super literally, just meant to emphasize that Zero is a big deal. It could actually refer to something more factual, but without actual knowledge throwing it there willy nilly is more or less just giving Musashi an Invulnerability that can't be argued because we know actual squat about it.

The fact is so incredibly vague doesn't help me think otherwise about it not meant to be taken at face value.

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

To be fair, we do at least know this is an actual form of invulnerability due to the whole thing with attacks not reaching her, but that phrase has given me nothing but pain as a Medaka Box debater for the longest time due to mister subjective immunity