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RWBY: Light Speed Upgrade

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What in the absolute ****.

How did you guys get 2 pages of talking with no one even arguing against you. It’s literally 2 pages of you guys just talking to each other. ******* hell man.

I’ll have an argument up eventually today, I have numerous issues with all points presented.
 
Kingofwolves999 said:
What in the absolute ****.

How did you guys get 2 pages of talking with no one even arguing against you. It’s literally 2 pages of you guys just talking to each other. ******* hell man.

I’ll have an argument up eventually today, I have numerous issues with all points presented.
Click to expand...
Can you give a brief run down?
 
At this point, I think everyone agrees Silver Eyes emit natural light as, again, it's main source is the God of Light who helped create the entire universe. I mean, it certailny wasn't the God of Darkness who did it.
 
And when I say the GoL created the universe, I mean that he also probably created the sun as well as even the concept of light.
 
Also, we should really bump the Gods up to uni for the heavily implied Uni creation.
 
But I think King's main argument would probably be that the Silver Eyes can't be natural light due to its magical properties. Which is fair, however, as stated by multiple characters in the series, it is straight-up light. Maria even says so. And, again, it's source is the literal God of Light, the man who created the concept of Light to begun with. Even with it's magical properties, there is nothing suggesting that it does not work like real light as well. Heck, it's basically a giant flashbang.
 
I just don't want this thread to devolve into arguing again after we are finally getting somewhere.
 
I think that the Cinder calc may be a bit questionable but I'll need some time to gather my thoughts, and I'll be taking a short sabbatical from the wiki from tomorrow.
 
Cire said:
But I think King's main argument would probably be that the Silver Eyes can't be natural light due to its magical properties. Which is fair, however, as stated by multiple characters in the series, it is straight-up light. Maria even says so. And, again, it's source is the literal God of Light, the man who created the concept of Light to begun with. Even with it's magical properties, there is nothing suggesting that it does not work like real light as well. Heck, it's basically a giant flashbang.
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Thing is magic can 100% still be light as is the case with verses like Fairy Tail and Black Clover
 
Cire said:
Can you give a brief run down?
Click to expand...
No.

You guys want to shove as much stuff at your opposition before they can respond as you can? Then I’ll respond to it all. I’m not about to have someone speaking false about what I’m arguing when I’m not here.

Expect me back in a few hours after work.
 
Kingofwolves999 said:
No.

You guys want to shove as much stuff at your opposition before they can respond as you can? Then I’ll respond to it all. I’m not about to have someone speaking false about what I’m arguing when I’m not here.

Expect me back in a few hours after work.
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Are you mad that we talked more about the calcs after you and Rusty were gone? Because anyone else in the thread also had the opportunity to raise objections to what we were saying.
 
Should we summarize what was discussed so they dont have to go through 3-4 pages of arguments and discussions?
 
RWBY: Silver Eyes Argument​

Guess I'm doing another CRT inside of my own CRT. CRTception.

Anyway, my argument is that Ruby's silver eyes are natural light and that RWBYverse as a whole can get upgraded due to characters reacting to said light.

The first thing I have to point out is that the God of Light is a primordial being made out of one half of a space dragon that was born at the beginning of time, the other half being his brother, the God of Darkness.

rwby.fandom.com

The Gods

The Gods are two immensely powerful beings that created Remnant. While there have been many various stories concerning the existence of dozens of deities, the only ones confirmed to actually exist are a pair of brothers: the God of Light and God of Darkness. The God of Light created the forces...
rwby.fandom.com rwby.fandom.com

The Two Brothers​

"The Two Brothers is a fairy tale detailing more information on the Brother Gods. As detailed in the story, in the beginning of time, a lone Dragon traveled the universe in search of other beings like himself. Overcome with loneliness, the Dragon decided to create one himself. Despite being all powerful, even the Dragon had to split its magic in half – into two symmetrical forms, one of light and the other of shadow. Each side thought one was the original and the other was the copy. Despite different personalities, they were ever only complete when they were together."

As it is strongly implied by Oz that every fairy tale has a measure of truth in them, we can assume that it was the God of Light's creation that brought forth all the natural light in the world.

rwby.fandom.com

Fairy Tales

For the real world book, see RWBY: Fairy Tales of Remnant. For the animated series, see RWBY: Fairy Tales. Fairy Tales are stories passed down through the history of Remnant. Although generally regarded as mere myths and legends, even the most unlikely of stories are said to have some basis in...
rwby.fandom.com rwby.fandom.com

"Ozpin notes that the Two Brothers appear in almost every creation story in various forms, but one thing is consistent: they arrived from a realm outside mankind's, and created the universe together out of nothing, leaving mankind on its own."

Here is further evidence backing up the point. The God of Light made all of the light in the universe. Also, we should really bump these guys up to uni lol.

"Nevertheless, the God of Darkness continued to secretly create more and more forms of Grimm whilst the God of Light planted a hidden gift in mankind to defend themselves from the monsters."

Here we see a statement that very strongly implies that the God of Light gifted humanity with a portion of its power, the silver eyes.



Here we see the God of Light performing a very similar flash to what Ruby uses for her silver eyes.



As seen here.



And here.

Thus, it can be said that Ruby's eyes are natural light. And thus, anyone reacting to such light would be moving at rela.

​
 
Last edited:
Cire said:
Here is Cinder reacting to and moving before Ruby's light reaches her.
Click to expand...

This isn't valid. Ruby's "light" is shaped into two large wing-like shapes pouring from her eyes instead of shooting in a straight light like a beam. Even if we accepted that they were composed of light, there is no reason to think that the shapes of light she is emitting is travelling at lightspeed.
 
Damage3245 said:
This isn't valid. Ruby's "light" is shaped into two large wing-like shapes pouring from her eyes instead of shooting in a straight light like a beam. Even if we accepted that they were composed of light, there is no reason to think that the shapes of light she is emitting is travelling at lightspeed.
Click to expand...
Its not the shapes that is being used, its the omnidirectional light that emanates from her when she uses the silver eyes that is being used
 
Damage3245 said:
This isn't valid. Ruby's "light" is shaped into two large wing-like shapes pouring from her eyes instead of shooting in a straight light like a beam. Even if we accepted that they were composed of light, there is no reason to think that the shapes of light she is emitting is travelling at lightspeed.
Click to expand...
Every other instance of her eyes doing the silver eyes should be good though, right?
 
Damage3245 said:
This isn't valid. Ruby's "light" is shaped into two large wing-like shapes pouring from her eyes instead of shooting in a straight light like a beam. Even if we accepted that they were composed of light, there is no reason to think that the shapes of light she is emitting is travelling at lightspeed.
Click to expand...
That was kinda reconded
 
So, my issues are as many as the opposition has arguments. Allow me to go through the points currently and previously made.

1. The supporters believe Penny’s lasers should be considered light speed due to meeting criteria for light speed lasers. This was countered, as the amount of criteria she met was challenged, mainly her source, the statement itself being questionable and the lack of a true light speed statement. As it stands, current arguments about Penny specifically are on hold due to the challenge being brought forth of the Atlas Military’s usage of light speed lasers in the first place.

Penny’s lasers should be the last point made in this thread. This then leads us to the next points.

2. Atlesian Air Ship Laser

This laser was brought up in response to the Atlas Military’s knowledge of light speed weaponry. The claim is that due to the straight line nature of these beams, and their origin from hard light dust, they should be considered the speed of light.

In opposition to this, it was brought up that there is no source whatsoever claiming these lasers are created from hard light dust. The fact that they also produce force, which is a valid anti-feat for realism, places further doubt on these weapons being light speed. This leaves the air ship laser cannons with only two criteria met: moving in a straight line and a technological source. This is not sufficient evidence for the Atlas Military’s usage of light speed weaponry and should be disregarded.

Arguments that might be brought up against those seem to depend on Hard Light Dust being used in things such as a camera flash.

This is irrelevant. Because the claim that the cannons use Hard Light Dust is unfounded. I encourage the supporters produce actual, true evidence that these lasers are produced from hard light dust first before further discussion is had for them.

3. Velvet’s constructs

This seems to be the popular hard light dust usage, so it requires quite a bit of discussion.

To begin, the opposition claims that “raw hard light dust is light speed, as camera flashes are produced by hard light dust.” This belief is unfounded.
WeeklyBattles said:
image0.jpg
Click to expand...
This is the one and only piece of evidence brought forth for Hard Light Dust being light speed. Through Velvet’s camera.

I would like everyone to actually look at the wording for this piece of evidence.

Nothing about “Raw Light Dust” is mentioned.

“Raw Light Dust,” as far as I’m concerned, doesn’t even exist.

The only time we see hard light dust is through Velvet’s hard light constructs (as so far produced). The fact that this light has mass substantially lowers its speed, and places doubt on any hard light dust being a usable source for light speed.

To further this: does a raw form of Hard-Light dust even occur naturally?

The opposition has brought forth the statement that new dust types are created by mixing them together. So Hard Light Dust could very easily be a non-naturally occurring type of dust. I’m which case, why is a raw form being questioned at all? What would raw hard light dust even look like? We never see this in series, nor is it ever explained what hard light dust is.

Hard Light Dust is used for making tangible objects, similar to energy weapons, via an unknown process. Claiming that the raw form of Hard Light Dust, which has not been produced, should be light speed, and therefore anything powered by Hard Light Dust should also be light speed, is completely unfounded.

So what does this mean for Velvet?

The argument for Velvet is that her camera uses “raw light dust” to create flashes. This is unfounded, as her camera is not stated to use any dust. Only the projector she has on her back that creates the weapons out of hard light. So a basis needs to be established for how cameras work in Remnant before claiming that “raw hard light dust” is powering her camera, and therefore is always light speed.

Power sources in fiction are not linear. A power source must be proved to provide similar functions and abilities to the things connected to it before claiming the things connected to it are all light speed. If a weapon runs off of sunlight, do we assume the weapons attacks are light speed? No. So I propose that evidence for Hard Light Dust providing light speed to objects powered by Hard Light Dust be produced.

Not that any of this matters, as none of the lasers produced by atlas are stated to be made of Hard Light Dust. Speaking of which.

4) Particle Cannon

This I feel is the most egregious current offender of wiki rules.

Naming fallacy.

The claim is that because it’s labeled as two things (“particle cannon” and “laser”), then it does not need to show any criteria for it to be considered light speed. The opposition is claiming that name and scientific properties alone are enough for light speed.

This is a clear violation of the rules brought forth for light speed attacks in the first place.

“Particle Cannon” has the exact same amount of backing behind it as “Laser,” there should be no difference whatsoever between one name and another. In fact, the statement of “Particle Cannon” should be even MORE scrutinized, and further evidence for the exact mechanics for this weapon should be produced.

But beyond anything else: it still needs to meet our criteria. A name is just that: a name. Until put to the proof, I absolutely disagree with using the particle cannon as if it were light speed. Particle Cannon’s come in all different shapes and types and sizes, not to mention ones as advanced as this one are a fictional construct totally.

This is a purely imaginary weapon, and therefore should be put under our suspicion regardless of what it is called. A force produced, speed of light attack is already doubtful, but the lack of any other criteria is doubly so.

Again: name alone should not qualify something for light speed, regardless of the name. Statements of light speed, showings of the qualities of light, things such as THAT are how we accept light speed. So naturally, that brings us to the final point.

5. Silver Eyes

Honestly, I was in agreement with the Silver Eyes until a certain point was made.
Cire said:
But I think King's main argument would probably be that the Silver Eyes can't be natural light due to its magical properties. Which is fair, however, as stated by multiple characters in the series, it is straight-up light. Maria even says so. And, again, its source is the literal God of Light, the man who created the concept of Light to begun with. Even with its magical properties, there is nothing suggesting that it does not work like real light as well. Heck, it's basically a giant flashbang.
Click to expand...
This is likely the most ridiculous statement yet, so allow me to break down exactly what Maria is implying.

“Legends of warriors whose eyes shone like mirrors, reflecting the light of the world unto darkness.”

Let’s get this out of the way first: she is not talking about natural light nor is she claiming that their eyes are literal mirrors.

Her entire speech to Ruby is in no way framing their eyes to be producing light in a similar vein as “sunlight” or any other type of “light” that would imply their speed would be the same, or their properties.

This quote, of “mirrors reflecting the light of the world” is not scientific. It is not made with the intention of speed, properties or anything that would imply it being a natural phenomenon that involves photons. This is all language used to describe the LEGEND of the silver eyes.

Her statement? Is not from herself. It’s not even from her father. Her father’s research resulted in this statement, and it is from a time shrouded in mystery/not explored. Nearly 100 years give or take from Ruby’s own time is when Maria would have heard her father say this. That is not evidence for light speed at all.

To put this in perspective: the legend is about silver eyes reflecting the light of the world onto darkness. The wording for this is flowery, it is not indicative of speed. The “light of the world” is not sunlight, nor is it ever implied that the silver eyes function as mirrors from this point onward.

In fact, the silver eyes are specifically fueled by magic to PRODUCE light, not reflect it. So this initial statement from her iincorrect, on top of not even being a statement from her.

Context needs to be heavily ignored to believe this statement is true.

“It is the desire to preserve life which fuels the light inside you.”

Before we get to the “important” claim, let’s briefly stare at this statement that precedes it.

Ruby’s silver eyes are magical in nature. They are fueled by her desire to preserve life, and act according to that desire. Ruling out “reliable source” on that one, but the main issue I have comes later on.

Keep in mind “preserve life”

“and make no mistake, it is light”

So, this is the big statement. Seems cut and dry no? She’s calling it light, therefore it is light, therefore it is light speed.

However, let’s see what’s she says next, because through context, we can tell that her definition of “light” is not the same as the opposition would have you believe.

“Preservation is an extension of creation, or at the very least an enemy of destruction. The creatures of Grimm were made by the God of Darkness, but your light comes from his brother.”

In the context of this scene, what is Light?

Preservation. Creation. Life.

These are the words used by Maria to describe the magical powers of the silver eyes.

None of these words imply the “light” Maria is referring to is natural, fast or otherwise related to any criteria we have that implies light speed.

The light they create is used to defeat the creatures of Grimm, a counterbalance if you would. It is a direct opposition to the God of Darkness. They shine in order to vaporize, blind or turn to stone their enemies.

That is not enough reasoning to assume they are the same as natural light.

That these magical eye powers are called “light” is not enough, given the context in which they are called so. They are called “light” because they are the opposition of the “dark,” that being the creature of Grimm. They are not called light because they share properties with natural light. They are called as such because of what they represent: a fraction of the God of Lights power, magically fueled by emotion to preserve life by harming Grimm.

None of that is an implication for their speed being anywhere near relative to light itself. The magical source and lack of light speed criteria or statements is a similar issue.

Being called “light,” especially in this context, is not enough. Similar to how “laser” and “particle cannon” do not immediately give light speed, this should not either. Especially when context is actually looked at.

Maria is not talking about the speed of their eyes, nor is she talking about natural sunlight or other examples that would point to light speed. She speaks of the light solely as a counterbalance to the darkness.

Magic Light vs Magic Darkness

Therefore the silver eyes need evidence of light speed to be accepted. Being a gift from the God of Light does not immediately make them immune to any scrutiny.

And speaking of the God of Light, let’s jump into the next point.

6. God of Light

The supporters of light speed would have you believe that “God of Light” = “God of Natural Light.” This is a misdirection.

The name, “God of Light,” is in reference to the light he produces, yes, but also for everything else he does.

Look at how Maria describes “Light.”

Preservation. Creation. Life.

The God of Light is not called so because he is known by all to be the progenitor of natural sunlight, even if that is true. He is called such because of what he represents.

Light is good. Light is life. Light is creating. Light is not Darkness.

Darkness is bad. Darkness is death. Darkness is destruction.

The names for the Gods are tied to their entire concept, not just the title. “God of Light” is called such because he is life. Because he produces things that are good. “God of Darkness” is called such because he is disliked. He makes Grimm and things that people don’t like, an active enemy of life.

Using name alone as evidence for light speed, is again, not enough.

Also, the God of Darkness can create light too. His light is just purple. So that’s not even mutually exclusive.

7. Summation

In closing:

Penny’s lasers are the closest technology in Atlas to PROVING light speed. They are the only lasers that meet more than one to two criteria, yet some of their criteria is dependent on factors that simply have not been proven.

Other examples of lasers, such as the “Particle Cannon” and other beam turrets, have little to no reasoning beyond their names. The names alone are the implication of light speed, but the wiki demands that evidence meeting our criteria be produced.

It doesn’t matter how many times something is called light. Or how many things exist that are lasers. Or even if a fancy name like Particle Cannon is used. Meeting the criteria is the requirement, not an option.

The silver eyes are similarly under this scrutiny. Their description, the constant usage of the word “light,” is not in reference to natural light, nor in a way that implies light speed.

Light Magic is preservation, creation and life. That is the purpose of Light Magic. To protect and preserve creation against things of Dark Magic.

It is not enough to be simply referred to as “Light” for light speed ti be acceptable, especially for a fictional source such as magic. The connection to the god of light is similarly not enough, as his title is also a stand in for his overall dominion over life.

The God of Light being FTL should have no bearing whatsoever on those connected to him. He is not FTL via his own powers, and even if he were, it would not scale to the people that hold a mere fraction of his essence.

Evidence needs to be provided that the Light Magic produced by Silver Eyed Warriors is light speed on its own. Scaling to the God of Light is unfounded, as power sources are not linear with things attached to them.

Extra Note: No statement of light speed has been produced. The claims by the opposition that light speed statements have been produced is false. Never is anything in RWBY claimed to be light speed. All “light speed statements” are just names placed on objects such as laser. Anything that is given a name but lacks the qualities should not be accepted per wiki standards.
 
Begging every day for a scan of any laser, hell any other tech than Velvets constructs, being produced by hard light dust. On my hands and knees praying at this point for it.

Anyway I go now
 
I'm just gonna state that, if something is called light in the lore and is made by the God of made all the natural light in the universe and then gifted it to humanity, then reasonable to assume it moves at natural light. Again, this just goes back to whole laser argument just the name and the implications are enough. Except, at this point, we are questioning whether light is really moving at lightspeed.
 
Would also like to add to the Ruby silver eyes argument. I think it is entirely wrong to assume Ruby’s eyes are literal lightspeed. Sure it’s like a flash of light and originate from the god of light but as King (👑) mentioned there’s nothing to suggest that title means actual light and not just “fancy name for good guy”. Not to mention they’ve barely shown up and have little to no statements on them nor do they show properties of light.

Besides that I’ve also heard that the 6-C calc is faulty due to the vaporization of the cloud mass and not the water content since that was brought up earlier.
 
CurrySenpai said:
Would also like to add to the Ruby silver eyes argument. I think it is entirely wrong to assume Ruby’s eyes are literal lightspeed. Sure it’s like a flash of light and originate from the god of light but as King (👑) mentioned there’s nothing to suggest that title means actual light and not just “fancy name for good guy”. Not to mention they’ve barely shown up and have little to no statements on them nor do they show properties of light.
Click to expand...
Burden of proof is on you to prove its not light, literally 70% of this thread was arguing that all you need is a statement of light being directly stated to be light for it to be considered lightspeed
CurrySenpai said:
Besides that I’ve also heard that the 6-C calc is faulty due to the vaporization of the cloud mass and not the water content since that was brought up earlier.
Click to expand...
Not sure why youre bringing up an AP feat in a speed revision thread
 
CurrySenpai said:
Would also like to add to the Ruby silver eyes argument. I think it is entirely wrong to assume Ruby’s eyes are literal lightspeed. Sure it’s like a flash of light and originate from the god of light but as King (👑) mentioned there’s nothing to suggest that title means actual light and not just “fancy name for good guy”. Not to mention they’ve barely shown up and have little to no statements on them nor do they show properties of light.

Besides that I’ve also heard that the 6-C calc is faulty due to the vaporization of the cloud mass and not the water content since that was brought up earlier.
Click to expand...
In the creation myth, they state the dragon who floating through the universe seprated himself into the God of Light and Shadow, thus their creation literally made those concepts.
 
The God of Light, while also representing good, also literally represents light. Shadows and darkness, while of course meaning bad stuff, are also the literal dictonomy of light.
 
Cire said:
I'm just gonna state that, if something is called light in the lore and is made by the God of made all the natural light in the universe and then gifted it to humanity, then reasonable to assume it moves at natural light. Again, this just goes back to whole laser argument just the name and the implications are enough. Except, at this point, we are questioning whether light is really moving at lightspeed.
Click to expand...
Light Magic needs evidence of being Light speed. You're ignoring context and just stating that because it's called Light it must be true Light speed because the source of the powers also created light. That's not how that works, evidence needs go be produced for her specific brand of completely different light to be the same speed as natural light.

Lasers are the explicit example of NOT using names to justify speed. Name is not enough at all, that's why the criteria even exist.

Particle cannon. Laser. None of it matters if the criteria are not being met for every single instance especially.
WeeklyBattles said:
Burden of proof is on you to prove its not light, literally 70% of this thread was arguing that all you need is a statement of light being directly stated to be light for it to be considered lightspeed

Not sure why youre bringing up an AP feat in a speed revision thread
Click to expand...
No, it's on you to prove that it's light speed. That's why criteria exist. Silver eyes having a trace back to the guy who made light doesn't make them light speed, as natural light and light magic are totally different things. The light of the silver eyed warriors is specifically used to counter Grimm, a counterbalance to "darkness." Prove Magic Light from the silver eyes is the same as natural light, that is your stance.
Cire said:
In the creation myth, they state the dragon who floating through the universe seprated himself into the God of Light and Shadow, thus their creation literally made those concepts.
Click to expand...
It doesn't matter if he made natural light. It matters if Magic Light, gifted to silver eyed people, moves at the same speed as natural light. Which is contentious, since it not only is never implied, but the light of silver eyes is only ever referred to in opposition of the Grimm. They are not literally light, they are Magic, and thus need to meet criteria.
Cire said:
The God of Light, while also representing good, also literally represents light. Shadows and darkness, while of course meaning bad stuff, are also the literal dictonomy of light.
Click to expand...
Him representing good puts more doubt on people inheriting his powers literally having light speed attacks. As I specified, criteria needs to be met. Just having the name is not enough. The "light" from silver eyes is Magic, fueled by emotion, not at all natural or comparable to real light. The "light" they emit is a attack of life preservation, intended to destroy darkness/Grimm. It is not the same as the natural light from the sun.

You're essentially claiming that because the God of Light created the first Hamburger, every other thing in creation that is called a hamburger must be the exact same flavor as his original Hamburger. That is unfounded, especially when the original hamburger is produced with natural ingredients, while the Magic Hamburger is produced with arbitrary ingredients like emotion and the will to protect.

Criteria needs to be met. Having your powers come from the guy who is both light and Good, and then your powers being a counter to the bad guys because they are bad and dark, does not equal light speed attacks without evidence beyond "its called light" while ignoring that the light in Maria's context is specifically fueled goodness and preservation.
 
Name does not equal evidence. Name does not equal evidence. Name does not equal evidence.

I will repeat this as many times as necessary
 
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