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"slander her".
Dude how am I slandering her? I only made a single non-serious misgendering which was instantly forgotten.
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Rule Violation Reports (New forum)
- Thread starter Antvasima
- Start date
Dude how am I slandering her? I only made a single non-serious misgendering which was instantly forgotten.
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I agree that was a very strange comparison and shouldn’t have been brought up at all.
Anyways, I support a 3 to 6 month ban.
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
She/Her- 9,828
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Let me be blunt here: All of my interactions with people on here are predicated on them not being bigoted pieces of shit. Once someone outs themselves in that regard by revealing that they do not think my identity is real or worth respecting, then I block them and get them the hell out of my life. Did it with Shmooply, did it with Deidalius, and I did it with you. You do not get a pass just because we happened to speak slightly more frequently.
Okay. Good. Let the banning spree begin, then.
That was a joke. The context was that Dereck has a profile on the Joke Battles Wiki, which directly mentions me in several places (I do not take offense to these mentions, to be clear). Since the topic of making a JBW profile for me was brought up, I decided to mention that profile as an example of someone I could "fight" if such a profile was made, saying I would "put him in his place" as a joke regarding the nature of his profile's references to me (which indicate that I had "lost" to Dereck, in a joking fashion).
Misgendering trans people is transphobia, Strym. You can try to dance around this issue with your "not serious + dark humor + Wokeism Bad" shtick, but it will not change the fact that the things you have said are textbook examples of transphobia.
As someone who has faced traumatizing degrees of violence IRL for their neurodivergence, I'm disgusted by the fact that you think it's appropriate to try and scale bigotry like this. We should not allow ableism, nor should we allow transphobia; The alternative to this is fostering a community frequented only by spiteful bigots, or a community where everyone hates each other.
This is not helping your case.
I find this odd, because if I recall correctly, another member reached out to me to ask why you were blocked, and then relayed the reason back to you. So you knew why you were blocked, and could have clarified that it was a "joke", but chose not to. You're only pulling the "dark humor" card now that there are actual consequences for your bigotry.
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That's a lot to unpack, huh?
This shit hurts, genuinely.
A rule violation would be if I directly constantly insulted you or made actions to antagonize you, but this isn't really it.
You didn't even ask me a single clarification, or anything on the sort, you blocked me instantly without letting me talk, so I have a right to just leave you behind, and stopping to completely interact with you, if you got pissed this much.
I have respected your decision of not wanting to have anything to do with me, ok, but you're making me think I was doing a really dumb decision at that, too.
I mean, sure? Doesn't mean that I treated you lowly nor even insulted you once. I genuinely used to see you as a good company as well, but now you're betraying me and even trying to get me banned despite all of before.
This shit hurts, genuinely.
This does not mean I was harassing, targetting or whatever else doing anything to you. A thing would be if I did personally stuff against you off transphobic beliefs, but it was just a single event that was only once, lol.
A rule violation would be if I directly constantly insulted you or made actions to antagonize you, but this isn't really it.
Wanna know the only reason why? I'll be really frank about this, I was simply scared. Not only I didn't know how else to actually reach you, but even if I sent DMs in other social media with an apology, I believed you'd simply block me even there.
You didn't even ask me a single clarification, or anything on the sort, you blocked me instantly without letting me talk, so I have a right to just leave you behind, and stopping to completely interact with you, if you got pissed this much.
I have respected your decision of not wanting to have anything to do with me, ok, but you're making me think I was doing a really dumb decision at that, too.
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@OverlordDonnelly With all due respect, please withhold your two cents in the future unless you have relevant information.
I hate to be the guy who has to say this, but add two cents long enough and you'll have the US Federal Reserve. Let the staff speak.
I hate to be the guy who has to say this, but add two cents long enough and you'll have the US Federal Reserve. Let the staff speak.
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While I don't have any direct proof on me, I did happen to be the one who brought up Strym's offense against Fuji from 6 months back, which she can back me up on. Though, if that isn't enough grounds to speak my mind on the matter, I won't put up a fight over it.
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
She/Her- 9,828
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"Betrayed" bro I genuinely do not give a fuck about you and never have. Yall need to get it through your heads that I am not friends with anyone on this wiki save for a small group of people (they know who they are, I hope). For everyone else, I tolerate them at best. It's not a "betrayal" when I decide to shun the hobbyist equivalent of a coworker because they said some bigoted shit about me, and you trying to spin it as such is both pathetic and seemingly an attempt at gaslighting, for some reason.
Our rules are pretty clear about this, Strym. Bigotry is not allowed; You can't defend it by saying "well I wasn't bigoted at her!", because the bigotry itself is the offense. If I openly said "wow I really fucking hate black people and muslims", I would be banned (and rightfully so) despite not directly attacking anyone from those groups.
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Providing the evidence and corroborating it is the extent of your responsibilities. You're not needed to make an argument on the side of the accuser or the accused beyond that.
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Not really tbh.
It would be a thing if it was a threat or similar, but not here.
I was only stating my view on the matter, if you'd like to avoid such rude comments.
My case isn't exactly comparable with Shmooply's, as I said, as I didn't take any action against you, unlike he who reported Topaz explicitly under serious transphobia, as he admitted as well.
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- Thread starter
- #27,010
"Disgusted"? That's an extremely strong term to use here.
I obviously want us to create a safe, friendly, and tolerant collaborative environment for everybody here, but I also don't think that we can be overly draconian by punishing the slightest degree of prejudice as hard as possible to create an environment where we permanently lose a massive amount of otherwise well-behaved and productive contributors, and everybody constantly have to walk on egg shells even in private when they are not even visiting here.
That would foster strong grudges that turn into hatred and severe social backlashes as well, so we need to try to find some kind of balance through proportionate responses.
Also, I am very sorry that you have faced traumatising violence IRL due to your neurodivergence, although my upbringing was filled with extreme amounts of systematic sadism, bigotry, supremacism, and violence directed at me for much the same reason, which helped to lead me to severe mental illness and suicidal depression, and even during my work in this wiki Seth the Programmer (who later turned out to be a likely sociopath or psychopath who forced children to perform severely self-degrading acts to gain his favour) called me slurs in front of over 100,000 people in a few of his videos, and I was harrassed for 2-3 years by trolls who, among other things, posted several hundred cases of death and rape threats, genocidal bigotry, gay pornography videos, etc, to me, and uploaded over 500 videos to pornography sites with my username in them.
All that I am trying to say is that I do not think that we can conflate genuine severe law-breaking levels of harrassment with extremely more minor offences, and punish all of it equally. On a social level that has proven to cause the opposite counter-reaction effect to what you are looking for, given the popularity of Trump and other bigotry-spreading demagogues.
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Okay. That is good then I suppose, but I think that you should apologise to Dereck03, as he found it offensive.
Hasty12345
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I fully expect this to get deleted and I’m ok with that as long as you read this Ant.
******* hell man, for you to be so strong after all that is a credit to your character. I’m sorry you’ve been through that and am sincerely glad you’re going strong.
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Thank you.
I have meditated a lot, and am otherwise also continuously trying to let go of and dissolve old bad experiences and appreciate the various positive aspects of life, instead of only wallowing in all of the horrors, but although I am satisfied with my own life nowadays, I am still very upset about many of the atrocities performed by the tyrants and war criminals in this world.
I have some suggestions for positive constructive self-work here:
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User:Antvasima#Helpful_resources_to_counteract_depression
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I want to make something clear. While I did find the asshole comment uncalled for even if it was in a joke manner, I just wanted to notified about that and nothing else, I didn't expect this turning into a real report, I think Fujiwara could feel the same if I (not a friend of her, nor anyone close to her) suddenly called her asshole. I bet she would be angry or mad at me for calling her that way, even more coming for basically "a random" so I don't think this matter should scale more than this.Okay. That is good then I suppose, but I think that you should apologise to Dereck03, as he found it offensive.
That's all on my part.
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If I may add a neutral opinion here.
I think we need to draw a fine line what can be reportable here from offsite. I don't believe anything other then extremely serious stuff should be valid for a report by itself(from off-site). Though I do still believe that it is helpful towards finding more evidence against certain cases.
I don't find it to be correct to necesarly punch a user, for doing something of-site that is not directly interfering with the website or targeting a user with the intent of serious harrasment or worse. It is important to realize how different all of us act on different websites, and with different people. Not to mentioned how or cultures and religion reflects, on our thought process and views. This Will naturally lead to people will constrict themself, on the site where it is against the rules, but still talk about it on other social networks. Let's be honest here. If it is not a extremely fine line how much can we actually punch? Since, almost all of us have done something that would break the terms of service on this site, of site. Whetever it was something small or little, recently or a long time ago, once or many times.
Though I can see why Fujiwara thinks this way, due to how often it happens to her..... Honestly all of her great work for the wiki (the downgrades) makes her one of the most hated and targeted person here.
I think we need to draw a fine line what can be reportable here from offsite. I don't believe anything other then extremely serious stuff should be valid for a report by itself(from off-site). Though I do still believe that it is helpful towards finding more evidence against certain cases.
I don't find it to be correct to necesarly punch a user, for doing something of-site that is not directly interfering with the website or targeting a user with the intent of serious harrasment or worse. It is important to realize how different all of us act on different websites, and with different people. Not to mentioned how or cultures and religion reflects, on our thought process and views. This Will naturally lead to people will constrict themself, on the site where it is against the rules, but still talk about it on other social networks. Let's be honest here. If it is not a extremely fine line how much can we actually punch? Since, almost all of us have done something that would break the terms of service on this site, of site. Whetever it was something small or little, recently or a long time ago, once or many times.
Though I can see why Fujiwara thinks this way, due to how often it happens to her..... Honestly all of her great work for the wiki (the downgrades) makes her one of the most hated and targeted person here.
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OH GOOD GOD.
I already have talked with them on Discord and sent an apology, which they've accepted months ago.
No idea why you're posting this.
I already have talked with them on Discord and sent an apology, which they've accepted months ago.
No idea why you're posting this.
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Actually Artori sent this to me directly and seemed to still be rather offended and hurt that you even sent this.
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- Thread starter
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A temporary ban was warranted from the transphobia. I just don't think that a permanent one was remotely warranted through that alone in this case.
Anyway, those screencaptures seem bad, yes.
Anyway, those screencaptures seem bad, yes.
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I cannot send the proofs of it rn, as I cannot access my Discord rn, but they did unlock me after that we clarified the thing.
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Look, Strym. The problem here is not that your stuff is or isn't you joking or whatever. The problem here is your conduct outside the site can bleed and affect other users on-site. You and others can attest, I have a very twisted sense of humor myself, but something I try and never do is take how others might feel because of this humor for granted, specially on such serious matters as their gender. Identities are important, it's what give us our individuality and sometimes our meaning as human beings. You taking them for granted, whether humorously or not, using them to joke and incite persecution (and whether this was your intention or not, ultimately doesn't matter, is the end result that does and this type of things can and has been incited, look how many times people constantly misgender Fuji) is something that is difficult to get past.
This here paints some of your overall conduct on site on a greatly negative light, specially when you have in the past gotten into outbursts and tirades. That's what's getting judged here.
This here paints some of your overall conduct on site on a greatly negative light, specially when you have in the past gotten into outbursts and tirades. That's what's getting judged here.
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Can we just wait a bit? My Discord account just had to be compromised today, and I cannot access the server from where those screens come from...
I know that. Heck, there's a reason why I stopped bothering with Fuji completely since, if she felt offended from my words then I respect her decision and left her be.
While I definitely lack sensitivity sometimes, I know where to stop if others are seriously offended from my actions and words, hence why I stopped trying to make this kind of edgy stuff towards specific people, as I thought about it and I have been through this kind of bullying way too many times.
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A final thing I'll say in regard to the whole "moral" aspect about this, but the issue is that you said it in the first place and very clearly have some sort of favor towards bigoted and offensive jokes. The fact you said the joke is bad enough, it doesn't matter if you "don't say them to this one specific person because they are offended." the issue is you are making the jokes in the first place.
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Well, that helps a bit, ig.
Anyway, I'll send the whole thing once I get my Discord back.
Anyway, I'll send the whole thing once I get my Discord back.
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Ngl though the fact that they reprived their apology shouldn't really affect the case as a whole since they did forgive Strym at one point, which is something that Strym already said, thus proving him right. The only thing it changes is the emotional charge between the two, but we ain't a kindergarten to care for that are we?
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I never hated Fuji off her being Transexual though, that's an accusation now.
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Okay. We can wait.
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Ant, I'm gonna be honest, there's no need to wait for Strym to get a "compromised" account back so he can get some screenshots that likely do not add anything to help his case.
We should just either let Admins wake up and decide where we go from here, or you guys can move it to your staff communications.
But from what I can tell, 3 staff are already in favor of a 6-month ban (Maverick, Propellus, and Bambuu)
Edit: The reason I say to move it to staff communications is that this topic is gaining a lot of traction, and I'm sure many peanut gallery members would like to randomly chime in.
We should just either let Admins wake up and decide where we go from here, or you guys can move it to your staff communications.
But from what I can tell, 3 staff are already in favor of a 6-month ban (Maverick, Propellus, and Bambuu)
Edit: The reason I say to move it to staff communications is that this topic is gaining a lot of traction, and I'm sure many peanut gallery members would like to randomly chime in.
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The first one genuinely was a meme tbh.
Second one instead was in response of a claim of me being trans off another joke.
Second one instead was in response of a claim of me being trans off another joke.
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Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
She/Her- 9,828
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That doesn't make it better. You're still saying trans people are men in spite of their identity; "Trans women are just men" is quite literally the most common form of transphobia there is. That'd be like saying "I only said I hate black people in response to someone saying I'm black, therefore I'm not actually racist".
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I don't know why would it not make it less worse, as I make this kind of joke like a lot of times, @GreatIskandar14045 and @RM97 can testify for this, given that we usually say this kind of stuff in DMs and whatnot.
Crass humor exists Fuji, I am not the only one in the world who uses it, and surely I am not the last.
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But I simply made those statements in places outside of it, people snitching to VBW people isn't exactly something I should be scared about lol.
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Can we stop sending screenshots of a banned member that adds nothing of relevance? You're basically sockpuppeting for artori right now.
Mr. Bambu
Suffer-Not-Injustice Bambu
VS Battles
Joke Battles
Super Moderator
Administrator
Calculation Group
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I'm returning to this because I do firmly believe at least in elements of what Antvasima has said here.
We cannot be so fragile as to ban people who offend us. There have been some posts above suggesting that because people have rescinded forgiveness and claimed offense, that this changes the context of the actions Strym has undertaken and they should be regarded as worse. This is not what we ought to be doing, lording our grudges over one another to revert our absolutions once the person is under fire from some other sector.
I am also a proponent of allowing "edgy" humor. This has been discussed many times. I don't partake in such foul language and jokes, but I understand that there are many who do that I would defend wholeheartedly that at least some mean them as, strictly, jokes, whether actually funny or not. We cannot be so fragile, then, to be upset by legitimate jokes. If we were to ban every individual for the beliefs of others they found offensive, then we would simply never stop bleeding. We cannot make that the reason for our bans.
So, Ant is right, we cannot approach everything reported as transphobia as bearing equal weight. It leads to absurd conclusions and wide-reaching implications for other slights. So, what do I think?
I think that what Strym did here does violate our rules. The posts behind closed doors mean relatively little to me, but his confrontations with people like Curry smell of his behind-the-scenes joking, and bad mouthing specific trans members while using trans slurs, even behind the scenes, isn't particularly good either: those jokes are entirely inappropriate when directed as he did. I do not support a permanent ban, but I do support a ban of some length. 3 months would be tolerable to me- in my view, it matches the severity of the crime.
@StrymULTRA I choose to take your professions at face value. You do not hate people because they are trans. Okay. Still, though, if that is true, you must learn to not address trans people as though them being trans is a negative, jokingly or otherwise. The transgender community does face significant amounts of hatred, and ergo you are causing undue stress in doing so, intentionally or not. This extends to countless other groups. Race, creed, disability, sexuality, mental condition. Addressing people who fit into X or Y group as though fitting into said group were a sin, even while joking, is playing with fire. In this instance, you've been burned. I urge you to learn.
We cannot be so fragile as to ban people who offend us. There have been some posts above suggesting that because people have rescinded forgiveness and claimed offense, that this changes the context of the actions Strym has undertaken and they should be regarded as worse. This is not what we ought to be doing, lording our grudges over one another to revert our absolutions once the person is under fire from some other sector.
I am also a proponent of allowing "edgy" humor. This has been discussed many times. I don't partake in such foul language and jokes, but I understand that there are many who do that I would defend wholeheartedly that at least some mean them as, strictly, jokes, whether actually funny or not. We cannot be so fragile, then, to be upset by legitimate jokes. If we were to ban every individual for the beliefs of others they found offensive, then we would simply never stop bleeding. We cannot make that the reason for our bans.
So, Ant is right, we cannot approach everything reported as transphobia as bearing equal weight. It leads to absurd conclusions and wide-reaching implications for other slights. So, what do I think?
I think that what Strym did here does violate our rules. The posts behind closed doors mean relatively little to me, but his confrontations with people like Curry smell of his behind-the-scenes joking, and bad mouthing specific trans members while using trans slurs, even behind the scenes, isn't particularly good either: those jokes are entirely inappropriate when directed as he did. I do not support a permanent ban, but I do support a ban of some length. 3 months would be tolerable to me- in my view, it matches the severity of the crime.
@StrymULTRA I choose to take your professions at face value. You do not hate people because they are trans. Okay. Still, though, if that is true, you must learn to not address trans people as though them being trans is a negative, jokingly or otherwise. The transgender community does face significant amounts of hatred, and ergo you are causing undue stress in doing so, intentionally or not. This extends to countless other groups. Race, creed, disability, sexuality, mental condition. Addressing people who fit into X or Y group as though fitting into said group were a sin, even while joking, is playing with fire. In this instance, you've been burned. I urge you to learn.
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I want to bring this up, as it is related to this statement (among a few others made in the thread).
The off-site rules, as they are currently written, include the stipulation "[for the other user/of users] in on-site interactions" as a point in regards to actionable off-site conduct, excluding the statements on criminal activity and destabilisation. As this was written by myself, and was a point in the thread which added them, I believe this should be stressed carefully in any such discussion on this topic. The intention of these rules is not to police the internet, or moralise spaces we have no connection to. The intention is to say "if you are doing things off-site that could affect users on-site, then those actual/potential on-site impacts are worthy to consider". I believe it is well within the realm of possibility that off-site actions can affect our users negatively in on-site interactions just as much as on-site actions can, and that is the point of the phrasing within the rules - that we have the discretion to work out what to do in such instances and thereby make better choices for our users, rather than being forced to write them off simply because they happened somewhere else.
With that theoretical tangent out of the way - I think that the comments of StrymULTRA towards CurrySenpai and Artorimachi, as well as the addendums added since then, are actionable. We aren't okay with bigoted comments or pushing someone to commit suicide. I'm not convinced by StrymULTRA's claims that every statement was intended as jokes with no earnest intent behind them, and I believe the impacts of them have been made clear either way. I support a ban of 4-6 months.
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Reviewing some of the new criteria that was posted, I still find it hard to believe that Strym was really joking or not as they all seem rather unsympathetic and rather looks like it was meant to get a rise out of someone. I'm still going with a 6 month ban
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@StrymULTRA Um excuse me? That last SS you sent looks like an off-site social media account, and if I'm not mistaken, it isn't even discord... wouldn't be a problem if it didn't have the user's @ smack dab at the top... I advise you to delete that as it could be a severe violation of someone's privacy.
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Mine was rather a private convo with Strym in Messenger (we often exchanged a number of crass jokes there).
But if the consensus considers it offensive, then taking the L is an okay for me.
But if the consensus considers it offensive, then taking the L is an okay for me.
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