Rule Violation Reports (New forum)

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

I am alright with retracting my proposal for a ban via Abstractions voice of reason. But agree with a final warning; he clearly did not intend for his jokes to be taken seriously. But at the same time, we should not be excusing total lack of common sense as it's still a heavily bad influence to be saying slanderous comments and slur words even if offsite or not spoken with ill intent. But a final warning to avoid pursuing this type of thing regardless of taste in humor is reasonable, or at least try to make sure the places you make them are much more secure; such as a one on one DM with someone who also shares the type of humor that you both agree to not share DMs of your jokes.

Hey, I'm back!

I suppose this is reasonable. Primary reason to consider a ban, as I explained in my last comment on this (and which Grath graciously expanded upon), is indeed how the situation can bleed and affect people on-site. However, if we are willing to seriously consider the joking aspect, then a final warning is fine with me.

 

[DarkGrath]

My stance is not much different. I don't believe a warning would be in-line with how we have acted on such matters in the past, especially so with the suicide comments (even with full consideration to the mitigating factors; I don't find the apology scans provided nearly as compelling as others have, evidently). Consistently, I would say these are offenses we instigate a ban for - for good reason - and I know precedents in rule violations are of importance to a lot of staff. I feel it would be dishonest to not note this, and my stance is largely the same that this warrants a ban to make our standpoint on such misconduct clear and ensure it is adequately disincentivised.

Even so, I have always placed higher value on keeping things in-order than upholding precedents. StrymULTRA, to my knowledge, has not been reported for issues of this sort in the past - he has been reported for other kinds of disruptive behaviour according to the tracker, but not in a way that I believe would directly translate to this matter. And it doesn't often happen, but it hasn't been unheard of in the past for someone warned for misconduct to never cause any further problems and ultimately remain a productive member of the site, which is arguably the ideal outcome. With this in mind - if the understanding on StrymULTRA's part is quite clear that we should not hear of similar issues in the future, and it really is the consensus of the staff that this is all it will require to avoid such issues in the future, then I won't drag this out by contesting a warning. I hope it is understood that my stance above is still what it is, and that I would not extend this reasoning twice.

 

[Antvasima]

I personally wouldn't mind to at least issue a temporary warning ban of a month or so, so Strym takes this issue seriously, but it depends on what other staff members here think.

 

[The_Pink_God]

So are we going to talk about Fuji's rather spicy take toward Straight people or...?

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

So are we going to talk about Fuji's rather spicy take toward Straight people or...?

It's just dark humor bro. Just edgy jokes.

 

[CloverDragon03]

So are we going to talk about Fuji's rather spicy take toward Straight people or...?

I was made aware of this before. It's supposed to be an ironic reversal of the homophobic and transphobic rants people have made in the past

 

[The_Pink_God]

It's just dark humor bro. Just edgy jokes.

Oh so when people joke about Trans people it's "offensive" and "transphobic" but when it comes to straight people it's "Just a joke" and "ironic"
I see I see

 

[Antvasima]

So are we going to talk about Fuji's rather spicy take toward Straight people or...?

I am certain that Fujiwara was trying to be ironic regarding the way that she thinks that many heterosexual cisgendered people in the United States consider and treat transgendered people, in a reverse-mirror manner, but the comment was still inappropriately and unnecessarily controversial and toxic, so I deleted it earlier.

 

[Antvasima]

I was made aware of this before. It's supposed to be an ironic reversal of the homophobic and transphobic rants people have made in the past

Yes, but it is still very unnecessary, as it is stirring up controversy for the sake of controversy.

Fujiwara, you need to make a continuous effort to shape up your behaviour when you visit this community.

 

[Deagonx]

Fuji's remark was clearly meant to be an ironic reversal of the rhetoric used by actual transphobes and homophobes against the LGBT community.

Also, a reminder: The only people who should be commenting here are staff, or people making a report/responding to one.

As for Strym, I still believe a ban is warranted by these remarks. I'd be willing to shift to the lower end of what was recommended at around two months.

 

[Antvasima]

To respond to the deleted comments here, what Fujiwara said was very blatantly intended to be ironic, not remotely serious, and the sum total transgressions by Strym were considerably worse as far as I recall, but I honestly do not know what we should do regarding Fujiwara at this point. It is so unnecessary of her to stir up this kind of controversy before we have even finished evaluating the original issue.

I sympathise with that she has turned bitter from being continuously treated badly by society, but this is not the right way to deal with it. She is hurting her cause more than helping it.

I would appreciate if she tries to be much more reasonable.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Yes, but it is still very unnecessary, as it is stirring up controversy for the sake of controversy.

Fujiwara, you need to make a continuous effort to shape up your behaviour when you visit this community.

Why don't you make a "continuous effort" to actually get rid of the rampant transphobia on this site and I'll consider it.

 

[DarkGrath]

So are we going to talk about Fuji's rather spicy take toward Straight people or...?

So, this is obviously a joke on the kinds of rants people will make on transgender/homosexual people, yes. It's also incredibly short-sighted to make such a joke in the context that it was used in, and was evidently made with full awareness of and intention to rile up drama and hostility to the extent that any such comment of this nature would be report-worthy.

I believe we have talked in the past about the straw breaking the camel's back, and I'm concerned that I think this is exactly that. Fujiwara should know better than to rile up hostility, again, after having been warned about it so routinely. I would support a short-term ban to make this matter clear.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

So transphobia, a widespread form of bigotry that has killed and maimed numerous innocent people, something I have bled and almost died over, is less of an offense than cisphobia, a thing which has harmed nobody on account of not actually existing. Cool.

 

[DarkGrath]

So transphobia, a widespread form of bigotry that has killed and maimed numerous innocent people, something I have bled and almost died over, is less of an offense than cisphobia, a thing which has harmed nobody on account of not actually existing. Cool.

No, of course it is not. I've made it very clear that I also believe Strym has committed a ban-worthy offense. I'm advocating for a ban for both you and Strym, as I have expressed - because whatever comparison you might make between you two to justify yourself, the fact is that you have continuously and knowingly caused problems for other members and the site as a whole that we have the right to take action on.

I am transgender too, Fujiwara. I know the kind of shit our community deals with first-hand. I know what you're doing is a response to an injustice, and I don't think poorly of you for acting in your conscience. Knowing that doesn't change what I have said thus far. You still need to shape up.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

So, this is obviously a joke on the kinds of rants people will make on transgender/homosexual people, yes. It's also incredibly short-sighted to make such a joke in the context that it was used in, and was evidently made with full awareness of and intention to rile up drama and hostility to the extent that any such comment of this nature would be report-worthy.

I believe we have talked in the past about the straw breaking the camel's back, and I'm concerned that I think this is exactly that. Fujiwara should know better than to rile up hostility, again, after having been warned about it so routinely. I would support a short-term ban to make this matter clear.

I don't know if we could ban her in good conscience, considering the entire situation. Then again, I'm frankly overall neutral here, and prefer to defer to our rules.

I also value your judgement on these things, so if you think a ban could be in order, won't exactly contest it.

Same with Strym.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

The "problems" I have caused in this case are solely me calling out the hypocrisy in how this site treats its members. You can say almost whatever you wish about LGBTQ members here - As long as you don't imply that your votes or reports are biased because of your bigotry, you can get away with anything. Straight people, though? Why, the mere mention of disliking straight people is enough to warrant comment deletion and a possible ban. The discrepancy between how these forms of bigotry are treated - if you could even call "heterophobia" and "cisphobia" genuine forms of hate - is clear as day and represents a moral rot at the heart of this site I want to see amended. I made that comment precisely because I wanted to see how "heterophobia" would be treated compared to transphobia, and needless to say my suspicions of one being treated more harshly than the other were proven true. That is a problem, and it is more than a little concerning that me pointing it out is more of a problem than the core issue itself.

If you invite both sheep and wolves into your fold, you'll end up with only wolves. You'd all do well to remember that.

 

[Antvasima]

Yes, I think that DarkGrath has the right idea here. Strym has told me in private that he feels sorry about what he did and wants to apologise to Fujiwara and the other people he wronged here, but he still needs some kind of consequence (ban) for the sum total transgressions that he performed. They were made offsite, yes, but even so, they were too severe to ignore.

And Fujiwara deliberately attempted to stir up as much toxicity and controversy as possible here for the sake melodrama and dissent in our community, which only causes damage to the cause of increased tolerance towards transgender people in general, even though it is ridiculous to think that she is genuinely a reverse-bigot.

Transgender people are neither worse or better than anybody else. They should be tolerated, respected, treated well, and have the right to be themselves without harrassment or bigotry directed at them, but not have the right to do whatever they want any more than other groups. A degree of empathy and leniency due to all of the mistreatment many of them have suffered through is good of course, but there are limits, and as DarkGrath said, I think there have been quite a lot of warnings directed at Fujiwara previously, so to make this fair, and to calm things down, I think that we likely have to give her a temporary ban as well.

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

snip

I still stand by a ban of some length.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

No, of course it is not. I've made it very clear that I also believe Strym has committed a ban-worthy offense. I'm advocating for a ban for both you and Strym, as I have expressed - because whatever comparison you might make between you two to justify yourself, the fact is that you have continuously and knowingly caused problems for other members and the site as a whole that we have the right to take action on.

I am transgender too, Fujiwara. I know the kind of shit our community deals with first-hand. I know what you're doing is a response to an injustice, and I don't think poorly of you for acting in your conscience. Knowing that doesn't change what I have said thus far. You still need to shape up.

I agree with this, both forms of bigotry are equally offensive; but another major difference is that one was spoken publicly on this forum which is usually our job to police while the other was on an unrelated Discord server which usually isn't entirely our job to police albeit as DarkGrath said not an excuse to ignore common sense.

 

[Abstractions]

Oh so when people joke about Trans people it's "offensive" and "transphobic" but when it comes to straight people it's "Just a joke" and "ironic"
I see I see

I genuinely believe that nobody would point these senseless, harmless jokes out if it was any other person, but since it's Fuji it gives people conniptions.

Yes, I think that DarkGrath has the right idea here. Strym has told me in private that he feels sorry about what he did and wants to apologise to Fujiwara and the other people he wronged here, but he still needs some kind of consequence (ban) for the sum total transgressions that he performed. They were made offsite, yes, but even so, they were too severe to ignore.

And Fujiwara deliberately attempted to stir up as much toxicity and controversy as possible here for the sake melodrama and dissent in our community, which only causes damage to the cause of increased tolerance towards transgender people in general, even though it is ridiculous to think that she is genuinely a reverse-bigot.

To be crystal clear I'd be banning neither of them if the decision were up to me, but if we insist on one for the record then let it be short.

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

So are we going to talk about Fuji's rather spicy take toward Straight people or...?

This is obviously supposed to be ironic, but has has no place on our forum. I think a final warning to refrain from crass jokes would be suitable here. I can’t support a ban in good conscience considering the circumstances.

 

[CurrySenpai]

I think people are being unnecessarily harsh towards Fuji, and while the comment itself was unnecessary I think she has every right to be pissed off with how things have been going.

The amount of harassment I’ve seen her face is frankly disgusting, even if we ignore the fact that a large portion of it is because she’s trans, and I mirror her thoughts that this weird double standard people have of “Oh it’s okay to make transphobic “jokes” but making “straighrphobic jokes is bigotry and should be punished!” Shows a clear bias towards how people see Fujiwara and trans people in general.

Gay, autistic, trans, etc. people have to deal with enough prejudice offsite and in the real world, if we truly care about them, we should at least have the courtesy to snuff out uncouth and bigoted behavior/“jokes” so they do not have to deal with it in a place that claims to wish to have none of that and equality between its members.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, the problem is that if we only punish Strym here, many of our members will perceive it as the reverse form of double-standard, but I do agree about that the circumstances are stressful for Fujiwara.

Maybe a 1 or 2 months ban for Strym and 2 weeks for Fujiwara, so they each take the issue of not continuing to behave like this seriously at least? Would that be acceptable?

 

[CurrySenpai]

Well, the problem is that if we only punish Strym here, many of our members will perceive it as the reverse form of double-standard, but I do agree about that the circumstances are stressful for Fujiwara.

Maybe a 1 or 2 months ban for Strym and 2 weeks for Fujiwara, so they each take the issue of not continuing to behave like this seriously at least? Would that be acceptable?

I personally could not support a ban for Fuji, but I think at least 2 months for Strym would be good. But I don’t think it should be just a ban, I’d at least like to see some form of growth or at least an effort that he tries to refrain from this behavior in general. As evidenced by the thread, when things started getting worse for him he started grabbing screenshots of other people attempting to throw them under the bus and slander them in a “If you take them out they gotta go with me!” way that I think is rather indicative to his mindset and behavior.

Obviously, I’m not staff, so this is up to your discretion, but I’m much more partial towards actually trying to rehabilitate people than just ban them for a bit and hope the ban itself did the trick.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, as I mentioned, Strym has expressed the willingness to apologise.

Also, given that several other members here that I know of who are also transgender seem to be treated much better than Fujiwara, I don't think that we can sweepingly label all problems she gets into as due to bigotry.

 

[Deagonx]

We could also reach a compromise and thread ban Fuji from the Pet Peeves thread for a period of time, given that she has misused it a few times now.

 

[Catzlaflame]

I mirror her thoughts that this weird double standard people have of “Oh it’s okay to make transphobic “jokes” but making “straighrphobic jokes is bigotry and should be punished!” Shows a clear bias towards how people see Fujiwara and trans people in general.

You’re literally neglecting the entire reason this is a problem.

Transphobic “jokes” aren’t tolerated on-site. Cis-phobic “jokes” are’t tolerated on-site.
Discrimination in general isn’t tolerated on-site.

Link me one instance of blatant transphobia on the forum, within vsb jurisdiction, that wasn’t thoroughly reprimanded.

Let me use a metaphor I used in the past: if I commit a crime in the United States, and runoff to some other country… lest that country has a extradition treaty, I can’t and won’t be prosecuted. We are not discussing wether or not the crime itself is actually a crime, we are debating about whether the country I ran off to can take action against that crime.

You all keep making this an issue centered around morality when, in reality, it’s an issue centered around authority.

 

[CurrySenpai]

Well, as I mentioned, Strym has expressed the willingness to apologise.

An apology is a start, whether or not people except it is up to them, but I think people would see him in a better light if he came back from his ban and was making a real attempt to adjust his behavior.

This would really be moreso for his sake because many people have already expressed distaste for him given this situation and reputations can certainly be built in short amounts of time.

 

[Antvasima]

We could also reach a compromise and thread ban Fuji from the Pet Peeves thread for a period of time, given that she has misused it a few times now.

I think that permanent thread bans and deleted offensive posts for members who severely abuse that thread seems very reasonable.

 

[CurrySenpai]

You’re literally neglecting the entire reason this is a problem.

Transphobic “jokes” aren’t tolerated on-site. Cis-phobic “jokes” are’t tolerated on-site.
Discrimination in general isn’t tolerated on-site.

Link me one instance of blatant transphobia on the forum, within vsb jurisdiction, that wasn’t thoroughly reprimanded.

Let me use a metaphor I used in the past: if I commit a crime in the United States, and runoff to some other country… lest that country has a extradition treaty, I can’t and won’t be prosecuted.

You all keep making this an issue centered around morality when, in reality, it’s an issue centered around authority.

I have my own personal thoughts on our off site policies, but I have neglected to bring it up because that is more of a policy thing than something I’d discuss in the RVR. Im willing to continue this in dms, but here? No thank you.

 

[Antvasima]

You’re literally neglecting the entire reason this is a problem.

Transphobic “jokes” aren’t tolerated on-site. Cis-phobic “jokes” are’t tolerated on-site.
Discrimination in general isn’t tolerated on-site.

Link me one instance of blatant transphobia on the forum, within vsb jurisdiction, that wasn’t thoroughly reprimanded.

Let me use a metaphor I used in the past: if I commit a crime in the United States, and runoff to some other country… lest that country has a extradition treaty, I can’t and won’t be prosecuted. We are not discussing wether or not the crime itself is actually a crime, we are debating about whether the country I ran off to can take action against that crime.

You all keep making this an issue centered around morality when, in reality, it’s an issue centered around authority.

Well, authority, including our own, should ideally be based on ethical norms and conduct, but I think that you make good points here.

 

[Antvasima]

Also, given that several other members here that I know of who are also transgender seem to be treated much better than Fujiwara, I don't think that we can sweepingly label all problems she gets into as due to bigotry.

Again.

Also, I think that only VS Battles Wiki bureaucrats and administrators should respond here regarding this issue from now and onwards, in order to avoid any more disorganised spam and controversy that does not lead anywhere.

 

[DarkGrath]

I made that comment precisely because I wanted to see how "heterophobia" would be treated compared to transphobia, and needless to say my suspicions of one being treated more harshly than the other were proven true. That is a problem, and it is more than a little concerning that me pointing it out is more of a problem than the core issue itself.

I don't know what you mean by this. StrymULTRA's comments have, as far as I can see, been treated as more severe by every staff member who has evaluated this situation. The staff members who have advocated against Strym's comments have either advocated less against yours, or just not advocated against yours, and the staff members who have not advocated against Strym's comments have not advocated against yours. Strym's comments are evidently being treated harsher than yours.

I support a ban because what you have done is what I would advocate for a ban for anyone for. I don't think what you've done is as bad as the Strym matter, and I don't think it warrants as harsh of a punishment. And I've expressed that, impulsive as it was, I don't think badly of someone who makes such an objection from their conscience. But you need to work on this.

 

[Propellus]

@DarkDragonMedeus @DarkGrath @LephyrTheRevanchist @Maverick_Zero_X @Deagonx @Propellus

If you guys have any changed opinions deriving from Aly's post above, I encourage you to speak on it. Silence will be taken as remaining true to your prior positions.

My mind still hasn't changed.

 

[Dereck03]

I am in the idea of Darkgrath, a month for them 2, we talk in this forum of equality and have the social position that everyone is equal. Strym screwed up, he asked for forgiveness publicly, privately and in any way he could, but to give a presedent for granted and that this will not happen again the ban is still considered here so that this does not remain as something that someone doing the same can overlook, that they have to know that there are consequences. Meanwhile fuji doing that kind of comments I have the same opinion as darkgrath, I don't know what fujiwara feels being part of a group of people who face that kind of hate continuously, but it's not to always express herself that way on the wiki, and I also consider the mention that if someone who is not from a certain group of people does that same thing clearly would have been reported and most likely banned.

Here we are increasing strym's punishment while decreasing fujiwara's, what is the equality in this? That just out of consideration we remove any punishment? Strym was the first time he did it and he will be given a ban (still on discuss) but from what I understand from what I am being told fujiwara is not the first time she has acted this way and nothing is ever done. And I also take into consideration that Strym apologized in any way he found possible while fujiwara simply went to rampage in a thread.

Personally if something happens in a way that I didn't want it to come out I'm not going to shout it out and say it publicly in a place where that is clearly punishable.

That's all i have to say, Ban for both and that's. A precedent must be set for both cases.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Well, if I have to be honest, my main problem here was the fact that I lacked emphathy when making this kind of stuff, and I had genuinely no idea that Fuji had faced all this stuff in her past, nor that I knew that Curry was unironically a transwoman, given that I've never interacted with her prior.

I was only telling that this kind of stuff is what I used to say with people who aren't part of these minorities, which made me forget that those minorities actually suffer from serious persecution, and here it was one of the main consequences of my behavior of assuming people would always take it as harmless stuff, and not as serious claims of hate.

I never truly intended to actually cause distress to anyone, nor have done it with malicious intent of any kind of things, heck I never had any kind of grudge or hate towards Fuji, much less now, given that she has rightfully perceived my messages as serious insults towards her fellow trans users, so she went on the defensive.

I am just wanna tell that I am indeed sorry for this lack of tact on my part, I should have known better. I do not want this kind of drama to be instigated or bs like that, I only want to be a peaceful and productive member that has no issues, given that targetting people is something that would make me an hypocrite, something that I have stopped from a good while after the previous reports.

I just don't want for actual problems to be caused over this genuine mistakes of mine, as I am a human after all like anyone else.

 

[Antvasima]

DarkGrath:

For how long do you think that we should ban Strym and Fujiwara respectively?

 

[StrymULTRA]

I know I shouldn't be really talking about ban durations and stuff, but it makes me think: Is a ban actually necessary for both me and Fuji?

As I already said, I never made any of these comments on-site, much less the rules say that "making racist/homophobic/etc. in unrelated servers" is automatically grounds for bans, so I don't understand why are staff even saying I should get banned. Off-site stuff only serves as a way to judge on-site infractions, not that on their own they're violations, given that otherwise this is actually becoming an internet police, this is something that was even repeated from them many times.

Fuji on the other hand made that comment off her frustration, given the context all around, which I can indeed understand, due to her past and how much she's proud of her identity.

I just wanna prove I have changed from this, the scare I am getting on this is making me already very, very paranoid on what would happen, and I want both of us to just forget all of this ugly memories, given how terrible this is.

Of course, if Fuji still wants to take her distances, I'll respect that, but she has to know that even now, I don't have anything against her, nor any other trans user.

 

[Theglassman12]

How long was Strym’s last ban? If we’re advocating for a ban it would be nice to know what his previous length was to give an appropriate extension.