Roronoa Zoro vs Sasaki Kojiro

[RazumaHiroki]

@RazumaHiroki If that's the case everything from Rakudai is considered as haxs than skill by that logic

You are misunderstanding me, not every Hax is a "Skill feat". Nor does most Haxes equate to AP/DC. The things he/she brought up weren't "skill feats" at all, unless you wanna argue that spamming infinite sword slashes is skilled, when there's already an existing definition for it aka that falls under the category "Hax"/"Ability". Allow me to ask you questions, would you think Gilgamesh, who spams his GOB out of boredom skilled? and someone (Let's say a swordsman novice) whose ability allows him "to cut everything".

Now what a real skill feat looks like for example, someone without power, advantages, special bloodlines, etc etc. Beats someone who's a swordsman that’ve 400 years of COC experience.

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

I already contacted @Paul_Frank @Regidian and @John985 to make it clearer about the whole skills issue

 

[PrinceofPein]

I will say this real quick this, no
one in one piece has an impressive precog like saber. Like seriously someone who can precog acausal attacks >>>>>>> anything in one piece. Kojiro fighting saber and piping her a while already shows zoro precog is not a factor here and also let me add

Knowledge of Respect and Harmony makes his attacks "unreadable" and prevents his opponents from ever analyzing or getting used to his attacks, Supernatural Luck, Minor Fate Manipulation (Servants with B-rank Luck or higher can change their own fates to evade inevitable outcomes such as having their hearts destroyed by Gáe Bolg)

Kojiro FRA and my reasons

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

You are misunderstanding me, not every Hax is a "Skill feat". Nor does most Haxes equate to AP/DC. The things he/she brought up weren't "skill feats" at all, unless you wanna argue that spamming infinite sword slashes is skilled, when there's already an existing definition for it aka that falls under the category "Hax"/"Ability". Allow me to ask you questions, would you think Gilgamesh, who spams his GOB out of boredom skilled? and someone (Let's say a swordsman novice) whose ability allows him "to cut everything".

Now what a real skill feat looks like for example, someone without power, advantages, special bloodlines, etc etc. Beats someone who's a swordsman that’ve 400 years of COC experience.

For the novice swordman, yes it counted as skillfull as capable to cut everything can't be achieved by a mere swordmasters, even for someone who trained for a years or more so

Gil is pretty much an outlier tbh since despite not skilled, he's the embodinment of every treasure of entire world

Raikou and Lancelot for the real skill feats, but i need more elaboration on this so don't take it too early as counter aguments

 

[RazumaHiroki]

For the novice swordman, yes it counted as skillfull as capable to cut everything can't be achieved by a mere swordmasters, even for someone who trained for a years or more so

i forgot to mention that his "cut through everything" was not something he achieved alone, it's a power given to him or he unlocked it via his special bloodlines. In short, the swordsman novice is haxed, but not very skilled when it comes to swordsmanship. If you remove his "Hax", and let him fight against a skilled swordsman. I think you already know the outcome. The most important thing to remember is, you can remove certain "Haxes", but not "Skills", skills comes from experiences and obstacles one has overcame.

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

i forgot to mention that his "cut through everything" was not something he achieved alone, it's a power given to him or he unlocked it via his special bloodlines. In short, the swordsman novice is haxed, but not very skilled when it comes to swordsmanship. If you remove his "Hax", and let him fight against a skilled swordsman. I think you already know the outcome. The most important thing to remember is, you can remove certain "Haxes", but not "Skills", skills comes from experiences and obstacles one has overcame.

Can sasaki cut everything?

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

Also why haven’t I seen a single scan from sasaki…

 

[RazumaHiroki]

Can sasaki cut everything?

Nah. I just invented a character for an example

 

[RazumaHiroki]

In other words, most Haxes doesn't come from "Skills". Most Haxes are fundamentally from protagonist, antagonist, deuteragonist, secondary protagonist, etc etc privileges. Special bloodlines, Technologies, Weapons, and being the reincarnation of a literal God, also specific verse mechanics.

A Girl, who's born with the ability to see the future, doesn't make her skilled, she's born with it. Hence why, Haxes normally doesn't equate to Skills, DC or AP.

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

Zoro also usually starts with speed amp attack with Shi ShiShi SonSon which uses Goken which is damage boost which should one shot which he ain’t dodging even with precog and can also be combined with armament Haki…

also Zoro can utilize range aswell with multiple aoe slashes that can also be supported by goken + haki… Zoro uses them close range, mid range, long range and when fighting melee he comes in and out with air slashes…

 

[KingAllen30]

Tsubame Gaeshi GG’s

 

[SemiRaedi]

Wincons for each character?

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

Tsubame Gaeshi GG’s

It's better if you make a constructive arguments instead "lul Tsubame Gaeshi gg ez"

 

[KingAllen30]

It's better if you make a constructive arguments instead "lul Tsubame Gaeshi gg ez"

I mean the fact that he has a feat of overwhelmed Artoria in a sword fight speak for itself. IIRC in UC he’s fighting againts Herc and will decapitated Heracles if Herc aim for the kill, and also even though he’s not the Saber Kojiro his skill in sword still should’ve relative to him

 

[DaReaperMan]

A 5x or so gap, Zoro isn't closing it, while 10 hit's from Kojiro may be enough to end the battle, i think it's better to throw Zoro at a berserker that isn't Lancelot or Hercules, so Zoro's skill would be a huge factor.

Then boy do I have the berserker for you

 

[SemiRaedi]

Zoro also usually starts with speed amp attack with Shi ShiShi SonSon which uses Goken which is damage boost which should one shot which he ain’t dodging even with precog and can also be combined with armament Haki…

Kojiro is able to perceive Musashi using "Zero" which grants infinite speed techniques from what I'm seeing in the profile

Extrasensory Perception (Can perceive Musashi’s use of Zero)

Infinite (Her skills transcend time, space and existence, leading her to a realm of nothingness with no time or space, devoid of thought and feeling, beyond the rift of reality and dreams. In this realm, which is explicitly not a pruned or parallel world, every moment her sword clashes with Kojirou's, infinite possibilities would play out and infinity and zero clash endlessly)

However it does state she goes inside a realm devoid of time and it's listed as extrasensory perception so I won't use it as a definitive argument and wait for knowledgeable members to clear it up.

 

[LordGinSama]

Dodging Causality attacks isn't impressive in terms of precognition, one doesn't need to have complex mechanics in order to do so. That's the entire point of precognition, to predict whatever is coming next.


Saber's precognition doesn't compare to Kenbun Haki in regards to how far into the future it can view. Not to mention she doesn't even have precognition in a literal sense, her's is a lot more like a Danger Sense.

 

[Rez]

Sasaki also fought Archer who has mind's eye
Mind's Eye (True): B
This description is from fate complete material:
Capable of calm analysis of battle conditions even when in danger and deduce an appropriate course of action after considering all possibilities to escape from a predicament.

And this is from fgo:
Powers of observation granted from training and practice.
Can calmly assess one's position and an enemy's powers even in a crisis. He possesses a combat logic that can find the only remaining path. If the chance to win exists even at 1%, he can find that chance and make it a reality.
On the surface it is similar to Intuition.

 

[LordGinSama]

Kenbun Haki goes above and beyond that via set in stone Predictions via Future Sight, mind reading and other forms of Prediction based abilities.

 

[Rez]

Being able to predict all possible possibilities and find the best possible outcome from those said possibilities sounds better to me

 

[LordGinSama]

Being able to predict all possible possibilities and find the best possible outcome from those said possibilities sounds better to me

Possibilities are always limited in nature, there's only a few logical courses an attack could take even with taking "Possibilities." into account.


Think your getting "All Possibilities." mixed up with "infinite possibilities.", the former just being several options/ routes one can take to avoid an attack, the latter actually covering literally anything that can and will happen infinitly.

 

[Rez]

Possibilities are always limited in nature, there's only a few logical courses an attack could take even with taking "Possibilities." into account.


Think your getting "All Possibilities." mixed up with "infinite possibilities.", the former just being several options/ routes one can take to avoid an attack, the latter actually covering literally anything that can and will happen infinitly.

No I am not getting anything mixed up being able to see all possibilities even in a particular situation is definitely better than being able to see a singular future

 

[LordGinSama]

No I am not getting anything mixed up being able to see all possibilities even in a particular situation is definitely better than being able to see a singular future

Again, no it isn't as that depends on the attack containing said "possibilities." the quote isn't "infinite possibilities." it's "all possibilities." a sword slash isn't gonna have infinite possibilities as to where it's gonna hit, same as a spear.


By looking into the future one can see everything written in stone that's bound by fate to happen. The latter is definitely better than the latter in most cases.

 

[Rez]

And the future predicted by observation haki is not set in stone here katakuri predicted sanji will dodge the priests gun shot so he intervened but sanji dodged that too meaning katakuri was not able to predict the outcome of his own intervention

 

[Rez]

Again, no it isn't as that depends on the attack containing said "possibilities." the quote isn't "infinite possibilities." it's "all possibilities." a sword slash isn't gonna have infinite possibilities as to where it's gonna hit, same as a spear.


By looking into the future one can see everything written in stone that's bound by fate to happen. The latter is definitely better than the latter in most cases.

It also says oi even a 1% chance of success exist the ability will find that particular possibility

 

[RazumaHiroki]

And the future predicted by observation haki is not set in stone here katakuri predicted sanji will dodge the priests gun shot so he intervened but sanji dodged that too meaning katakuri was not able to predict the outcome of his own intervention

Except, the only characters to counter or mitigate Katakuri's pre-cognitive powers are those who have evolved their haki to comparable levels: Sanji (confirmed to be specialized in Kenbunshoku by Oda), and Luffy--the latter of which developed his pre-cog to eventually match Katakuri. So, in short it's a really bad comparison. Since a battle between Advanced Kenbunshoku users can influence each other actions.

 

[LordGinSama]

It also says oi even a 1% chance of success exist the ability will find that particular possibility

1% out of a vague number isn't anything to brag about, again that depends entirely on the attack they're predicting. An attack isn't going to have an infinite number of outcomes where it'll strike.

And the future predicted by observation haki is not set in stone here katakuri predicted sanji will dodge the priests gun shot so he intervened but sanji dodged that too meaning katakuri was not able to predict the outcome of his own intervention

Sanji countered with his own prediction, not sure how that counters the future being set in stone, especially whenever Kenbun users only see the immediate future and its affects as opposed to seeing everything unfold.

 

[RazumaHiroki]

Why are people always using Sanji (who has advanced haki) and Luffy (who has advanced haki) to downplay Katakuri's future sight (advanced haki).

 

[Rez]

1% out of a vague number isn't anything to brag about, again that depends entirely on the attack they're predicting. An attack isn't going to have an infinite number of outcomes where it'll strike.

It explicitly states that it can find the only remaining path
possesses a combat logic that can find the only remaining path.

 

[LordGinSama]

It explicitly states that it can find the only remaining path
possesses a combat logic that can find the only remaining path.

Which again, is still not infinite. Not sure how many times I need to tell you that, possibilities aren't always infinite, I get what your trying to say here but what your trying to say is already the main point of Analytical Prediction.

 

[Rez]

Which again, is still not infinite. Not sure how many times I need to tell you that, possibilities aren't always infinite, I get what your trying to say here but what your trying to say is already the main point of Analytical Prediction.

Infinite possibilities exist in fate though but mind's eye only shows all possible possibilities in a certain situation and the best course of action in those possibilities which is still better than observation haki

 

[Rez]

Mind's eye is the only reason Archer can keep up with the likes of Cu and Hercules (herc has a precog of his own too)

 

[Regidian]

Dont' see being tell but for sasaki vs artutia. Arturia was able to evade a broken tsubame gaeshi with only two slash, sasaki was not able to make the third because blade touch the ground

 

[Rez]

Also knowledge of harmony and respect means zoro will never get used to assassins techniques

 

[Rez]

Voting regend for better skills and ap

 

[Loyd]

Capable of calm analysis of battle conditions even when in danger

this is refering to his combat logic(basically combat experience). Don't make it bigger than it already is.

and deduce an appropriate course of action after considering all possibilities to escape from a predicament.

It would be limited in nature, notice the word "deduce" the appropriate course of action is personnal/subjective to him.

just to note if these two were to clash its not really a stomp. both sides would get harmed and fate is possibly getting an upgrade, so sasaki would one shot with the new weapon hax if he touched zoro.

so when the crt pulls thru im changing my vote to sasaki

 

[LordGinSama]

Infinite possibilities exist in fate though but mind's eye only shows all possible possibilities in a certain situation and the best course of action in those possibilities which is still better than observation haki

Possibilities (physical based attacks.) aren't infinite even in Fate, not every Servant has access to infinite attacks, so no Mind's Eyes doesn't take into account INFINITE possibilities.

Not even sure what this has to do with Saber's instinct tbh, Zoro himself already has 2 types of this kind of Prediction and layered Precog from Kenbun.

 

[Rez]

Possibilities (physical based attacks.) aren't infinite even in Fate, not every Servant has access to infinite attacks, so no Mind's Eyes doesn't take into account INFINITE possibilities.

Of course not every servant has access to infinite attacks but the possibilities in fate are still infinite and I never said mind's eye allow users to see all infinite possibilities I only said it allows user to see all possible possibilities in a particular scenario

 

[RazumaHiroki]

Voting regend for better skills and ap

Better Skills? nobody has presented any actual skills feats thus so, how can you claim better he's more skilled when nobody ever bothered to refute or debunked why Zoro is likely more skilled than Kojiro.

 

[Rez]

this is refering to his combat logic(basically combat experience). Don't make it bigger than it already is.

It would be limited in nature, notice the word "deduce" the appropriate course of action is personnal/subjective to him.

just to note if these two were to clash its not really a stomp. both sides would get harmed and fate is possibly getting an upgrade, so sasaki would one shot with the new weapon hax if he touched zoro.

so when the crt pulls thru im changing my vote to sasaki

Read the fgo description and Archer is not doing the deduction himself the skill is